Mario Gives Up 2: Let's resuscitate the Princess

[MrDeePay]

Was MGU1 this... polarizing between good ideas and poor execution?

Going on pure memory, no.
If I were to make a guess on anything- and judging on levels played through by Krocketneo's run- it seemed like that MGU2 seems like a less "focused" game that has ASMT-styled spikes (game get harder much quicker with next to ). Stuff added for the sake of it, basically.

If you ask me, Yoshi jumps that require you to kill Yoshi are fucking stupid. The fact that some of the "rigmaroles" involving him are pointlessly difficult and time consuming/wasting.

I honestly can't remember. Maybe the Mushroom Kingdom Meltdowns had the same problem. It's been a while and for some (shocking!) reason I don't feel like going back to play them again.

Difficulty roller coaster that contained some bad general design choices. Oh, and slowdown.

so let's just hope that Cypher attempts a MGU3 because that should be gold.

Ain't happening anytime soon. Then again, Cypher said that MGU would've been his last SMW game.

[NLTM]

Man I almost forgot about the whole process you need to go through to get a Yoshi. It doesn't get any easier either, unless I've missed something, and I've hit every exit up to around the beginning of World 8 so far. It really is stupid to have to require a Yoshi, then to have the player go to oddly specific lengths just to find one at all.

Then you have to keep it alive throughout.

And if you die well damn, buddy, you need another shitmachine, pronto.

Why couldn't the first level have a secret exit or something, still requiring the Yellow Switch I guess, that just led to a Bonus item warehouse type level with just a Yoshi in it, so you could get one whenever you needed one.

I'm getting angry at video games on the internet.

[cozyduck]

Okay, so I guess it's time for my unpopular opinion.

I like MKM2 better then MGU1, mostly because MGU1 had too many easy, forgetable levels, and a very underwhelming endgame compared to MKM2.

MGU2 does better in this regard, but it also has more downright annoying stuff, so after finishing it I'm still not sure on how to rate it.

And let it be said that I didn't find the lava ride level nearly as bad, and I tend to have trouble with podoboos as well, so I dunno what to say about that.
The midpoint in the pony level is bullshit though, I'll give you guys that much at least.

[Sebby19]

Again, the game is plagued with poor design decisions.

I enjoyed the ponies level because I'm one of those guys. Though I suppose I should clarify that I liked the concept. It reminded me of the Boo races in the GBC port of Mario 1, and it was pretty cool.

I would have rather used that boo instead of the stupid horse.

acrobatic pirouettes both off the metaphorical handle,

Looks like someone read's Homestuck. I approve.

[morsel/morceau]

Okay, so I guess it's time for my unpopular opinion.

I like MKM2 better then MGU1, mostly because MGU1 had too many easy, forgetable levels, and a very underwhelming endgame compared to MKM2.

MGU2 does better in this regard, but it also has more downright annoying stuff, so after finishing it I'm still not sure on how to rate it.

And let it be said that I didn't find the lava ride level nearly as bad, and I tend to have trouble with podoboos as well, so I dunno what to say about that.
The midpoint in the pony level is bullshit though, I'll give you guys that much at least.

I agree, MKM2 is the best of the bunch. That is one of my top ten hacks (not that I actually have such a list). It had some crazy themes (Aztec tanks, anyone?), but at least there were themes, and it wasn't just one random thing after another. I really don't understand why there was the whole cave-to-sky transition at the start of the pony level, but not a sky-to-cave at the end. A lot of levels just seem shoved in wherever they won't go. I suppose if this is his last hack and he just wanted to jettison level ideas, that's understandable, but it doesn't make for the best continuity, sadly.

Still, the hack is fun enough to play and I like the general difficulty, and least the cactuses don't hurt you this time. Look for the rainbow when it rains [edit: this isn't a pony reference].

[NLTM]

stupid horse.

There wasn't a Yoshi in that level, though.

There was some strange species of dinosaur though. It's easy to get these things confused.

[Roo]

Are the Letters/Numbers being added up through each "Folder Video" Going to group up into the password to the final folder?

[NLTM]

Are the Letters/Numbers being added up through each "Folder Video" Going to group up into the password to the final folder?

Not exactly, what it does is

Between Worlds 7 and 8, there is a level called "Crossing Over" or something like that. Pretty hard Hell based level, but that's beside the point. At the end, you have 5 consecutive rooms, each room having a sequence of 6 doors labeled 1 to 6. You punch in the numbers you got from the Land of the Dead levels, and bam, you're in. If you get a number wrong, it poops you out over a pit of lava and you lose a whopping 6 lives, one for every shit you give at that point plus 6.

[Roo]

Not exactly, what it does is

Between Worlds 7 and 8, there is a level called "Crossing Over" or something like that. Pretty hard Hell based level, but that's beside the point. At the end, you have 5 consecutive rooms, each room having a sequence of 6 doors labeled 1 to 6. You punch in the numbers you got from the Land of the Dead levels, and bam, you're in. If you get a number wrong, it poops you out over a pit of lava and you lose a whopping 6 lives, one for every shit you give at that point plus 6.

Thats pretty harsh. But a Neat concept nonetheless.

[The Doctor]

Wow, so much negativity here. Am I the only one who loves this hack? I played through the entire game savestateless before raocow even started it and I loved every single second of it. "Kinda Sorta Think", The Lava surfboard, the hidden clues, the Rainbow Dash race, the bosses, the story, etc. It's all fantastic. Sure, there's a few small flaws, but this hack is a solid 9/10.

[NLTM]

I'm surprised that, while pointing out things you liked, you specifically mention Kinda Sorta Think, which is probably the worst level in the game for a number of reasons. The puzzle is okay, in fact, it's very clever, making you switch between your flower and cape at the end is something you don't see every day. The problem comes with the second half, which for all intents and purposes, should either not exist at all, or should be moved to another level entirely. You just got through this (actually sorta long on its own) puzzle. You should be done. But NOPE it shoves you into an unfairly hard sidescrolling section with foreground elements that obscure your view from the literal shitloads of things that hide behind them.

The rest of your points are subjective, but you can't deny that the design flaws in this game are particularly jarring, especially considering the relative quality in the layout of the land of the actual levels themselves, and the amounts of effort that were obviously put into the game.

[Bean]

Wow, so much negativity here. Am I the only one who loves this hack?

Like I said, I'm kind of iffy on it. It gets one stage right then proceeds to screw things up the next. I'm definitely not negative on it as of yet. Still, the lack of balance worries me for later stages.

[The Doctor]

The problem comes with the second half, which for all intents and purposes, should either not exist at all, or should be moved to another level entirely.

Why would it make a difference if the second half of KST was a new level rather than a second half? Why is having KST end at the midpoint and then lead to a new dot with the second half so important? You have a midpoint, so for all intents and purposes it is a new level.

And yes, I admit there are design flaws, but they are pretty minor. At most it adds a little extra length to the game by forcing you to repeat some sections, but overall it's just not a big deal.

[Ometeotl]

Why even have levels at all then? The entire game is just one long level with dozens of separate sections with a checkpoint between each one.

[The Doctor]

You mean like Metroid? Yeah, I've got no problems with that. My point is that placing an arbitrary separation like that shouldn't change the level from "bad" to "fun". It's just a stylistic choice.

[raocow]

N...no. I have to respectfully disagree there. There's a certain pyschological division created by 'levels', at least for some people. To me, having Kinda Sorta Think be two levels, wouldn't feel as bad. Like, when I start 'a level', I kind of want to keep working on that level.

And, like, a level, at least to me, is a sort of unique 'entity.' It's a cohesive whole. It's a very specific 'chunk' of the game. And when design plays against that, when design hurts this cohesiveness, it just feels off.

I'm writing this while I'm WAY TOO TIRED and it's probably unreadable and not making any sense, I'm sorry.

[NLTM]

Yeah, spaces between levels, going to the map screen and such, seems like a nice (sometimes much needed) break. Having a level like Kinda Sorta Think in which there is no break shatters the natural stride the player takes, jettisoning them into a marathon that they definitely didn't sign up for.

Even so, I don't think just bifurcating the level into two separate stages back to back would quite do it. Someone mentioned earlier that the second half has a very "storming the castle" type feel, and it's one that clashed wildly with the puzzle theme of the first half. Maybe have the second half before an actual castle level? It's difficulty, even without the unfair elements, seem better suited to a world 6 or 7 stage anyway.

[Ometeotl]

Also game overs remove the midpoint, so there's that.

[NLTM]

Also game overs remove the midpoint, so there's that.

Well, it's not like it's hard to go farm lives. It's one of the reasons why I play by plonking a savestate at the beginning of every level. I enjoy the philosophy that games like Super Meat Boy take, that when you die, the game wastes zero time getting you back into the action. Especially in a game like this, where I'll probably be dying more than in a "normal" game, it helps to just jump right back in from the beginning (or midpoint) when I die. If I have a powerup going in, and I die, I'll restart the level again and put down the savestate when I'm small, like I should be.

It completely invalidates lives, but it's essentially just cutting out the middleman of having to go to the "farming spot" and spending time there.

EDIT: It's also because I'm an impatient little shit. I fast forward through stuff like the end of level iris out and boss fanfares, it's a pretty shitty habit.

[Ashan]

As for Land of the Dead 3...at least this level drives home the fact that if you want to give raocow a hard time in your Mario level, all you have to do is make it autoscrolling with an inherent amount of randomness and scenery obstruction. I'm taking notes here!

I don't think the autoscrolling has too much to do with it. I think that levels that give raocow trouble are purely the ones that incorporate "randomness" into it, such as the fire that comes from the sides of the screen and crossfire bullets and whatnot (and I guess there's also the "levels that go on for too long").
raocow (and most other gamers) always likes to find himself a "pattern" to get into so that he can memorize the button presses and timing, but when the RNG is choosing what happens and when, he can never really form a "pattern" and thus, we have the "hour long recording session".

[The Doctor]

N...no. I have to respectfully disagree there. There's a certain pyschological division created by 'levels', at least for some people. To me, having Kinda Sorta Think be two levels, wouldn't feel as bad. Like, when I start 'a level', I kind of want to keep working on that level.

I think I can understand that, but I just don't agree. I actually keep forgetting that Kinda Sorta Think even has a second half because I mentally think of it as two levels. You've got the puzzle section and then the action section. To me they're both very different levels even if they are not officially different levels -- a KST-1 and a KST-2 as it were to keep the Mario motif.

raocow (and most other gamers) always likes to find himself a "pattern" to get into so that he can memorize the button presses and timing, but when the RNG is choosing what happens and when, he can never really form a "pattern" and thus, we have the "hour long recording session".

See, that's what I loved about it. When a game is just memorization that takes some of the fun out of it. I much prefer a game with a small element of randomness to constantly keep the player on his toes and prevent muscle memory from dominating the game.

[GauRocks]

Was MGU1 this... polarizing between good ideas and poor execution? I honestly can't remember. Maybe the Mushroom Kingdom Meltdowns had the same problem. It's been a while and for some (shocking!) reason I don't feel like going back to play them again.

MKM2 was the only raocow LP I ever stopped watching. I just got hung up on a bunch of tiny flaws and couldn't let them go. I realized it after going back and looking at my impression of one of the levels that was also in the chocolate level contest. When it was by itself, I liked it a lot. When it was in the context of the hack, a couple of little minor things made it seem like the worst thing in the world. The whole game just filled me with an irrational desire to hate it, so I did.

I think the same thing is probably happening to a smaller extent here. People would be impressed and let a lot of these complaints slide in another hack, but for some reason, these levels make you want to hate them for not using the cool ideas well enough.

[Dollop of Mayo]

Sudden shifts in gameplay and theme are best broken up by giving the player a breather. I'm tempted to say it's not even subjective.

Think of Super Metroid. When you went from one "zone" to another, there was usually a long elevator trip, which sort of cleansed the palette so to speak between areas. I always found it a bit jarring in Norfair where suddenly you end up in that bubbly area. It felt like a totally different zone. But otherwise you got either an elevator or a gradual transition.

Half-Life 2 probably does it best. You always have transitions between major gameplay changes. Usually that means you run into some friendly people who directly or indirectly prep you for the next area. You never just get shoved from urban first person shooter to driving a boat down a river to super scary horror town. There's always a little break.

Levels in Mario provide that break. If you want a level where you fly a barrel and it's frustrating, go ahead I guess. Keeping themes separate means the player can mentally focus on that one theme. It's just more enjoyable that way and if you look at the most loved and successful games you're not likely to find many that have these jarring transitions.

[TRS]

I think I can understand that, but I just don't agree. I actually keep forgetting that Kinda Sorta Think even has a second half because I mentally think of it as two levels. You've got the puzzle section and then the action section. To me they're both very different levels even if they are not officially different levels -- a KST-1 and a KST-2 as it were to keep the Mario motif.

Something I don't think anyone else has mentioned so far is consistency. Every level immediately around it was somewhat short for the world, and then suddenly there's a level whose first half is a bit longer than a full level should be (and without a midpoint), followed by a second action-y half that's almost another level in length.

You can't tell me that there's not something wrong with a level being pretty much twice as long as the levels around it (and arguably more difficult, at that).

[S.N.N.]

So yesterday's video with the race was just posted in a main news post on Equestria Daily.

Enjoy your massive jump of pony-lovers angsting out at each other in the comments.