*X3 WINNER CONGRATS TO ENJL* the one with the seasonal allergies

[dtsund]

This level getting both a staff favorite and two staff least favorites isn't mysterious at all.

I've been wondering for a while, though, whether some of least favorite rankings for this one are at least partly because of the unobtainable star thing. I imagine that caused more than a few headaches for the dev team as they try to figure out exactly how you're supposed to deal with that. Initially showing the level as a two-star level and then changing it to a one-star level after you clear the right-hand path is a better solution than I think I could've come up with, but I could envision at least a few hours of debates and some technical wizardry underlying that.

[PSI Ninja]

regarding specifically the bit where the level tells you you're not getting the secret star: this is part that didn't work for me, and it reminded me of a bit in undertale genocide route where

flowey makes fun of you for doing all this out of a sense of completionism.

the main reason both fell flat for me is that I'm not a completionist. that's not the reason I did undertale genocide route and it's not the reason I did the 'hard' path of this level. I'm just challenge driven.

But here's what I don't get. If someone was a completionist and was bothered that they didn't get rewarded with the second star after doing the more difficult right path, wouldn't they have been rewarded anyway by getting the second exit? Even though it's later revealed that there's only one star for this level instead of two, it's still indicated that there are two exits. There's a souvenir (anyone remember those?) for getting all the exits in the game. So if you're completionist-minded, you would've had to do the right path anyway. I mean, I think it would be pretty weird to go for all stars but not all exits.

Having played Kerkec's level, I have a few comments about the challenge-oriented right path. Riding the Para-Beetle train near the beginning was pretty awkward, but I made it a little easier on myself by taking one all the way to the bottom of the screen. You can avoid most of the obstacles this way. I still have no idea if the "spikes" near the top hurt you though.

The part where you have to move between the two Grrrols, I felt I eventually got lucky. I died many times at the end of that section by getting hit when the Grrrol in front would start rolling backwards, not knowing what you had to do. But one time, the front Grrrol just inexplicably died to the Para-Beetles, so I was able to pass. Still not sure what you were expected to do there.

Lastly, the final vertical shaft where you had to do the small jumps was really gratifying because it just felt so pure. But it was also interesting because you had to manage the hang time of your jumps. I had more success here using spin jumps rather than normal jumps, which felt a bit easier to get shorter jumps with. And on a side note, this is where I discovered that you can maintain your spin if you press the normal jump button as soon as you land from a spin jump. Like, I wanna say a frame-perfect input. Weird quirk.

I've felt this way for a while but I think this is the ideal time to express it: the default SMBX text box seriously blows for readability when it's more than a couple lines.

I agree, the font and style of the text boxes are terrible. I'm normally a pretty fast reader, but I swear it takes me twice as long to read and comprehend SMBX text boxes than it does to read literally anything else. Just abysmal.

(And I say this as someone who enjoys making and playing text-heavy levels. I just want to be able to read the text easily without having to sit there consciously piecing together what it says!)

Same here, and I've expressed my problems with the SMBX text boxes earlier in the thread. But to be fair, I also have trouble reading SMW message boxes too. Just the combination of the line spacing, the thickness of the font, and how smushed the letters appear. So my issue is not that there's too much text in SMBX, it's just the way it's presented. Because I can read the judge comments just fine, and they typically contain lots and lots of text. The different, skinnier font used in the judge commentaries really does make them easier to read.

[Enjl]

So if you're completionist-minded, you would've had to do the right path anyway. I mean, I think it would be pretty weird to go for all stars but not all exits.

The exit counter came about as a necessity after the 21-star bonanza back in world 3, to pace out the unlock progression more smoothly. The level played today did not know that there would be an exit counter separate from the star counter, and neither did we until last year.

[Zygl]

Gonna go on record here in the thread as saying I like tonight's level in concept but the way it's written had issues. Like, I like Level (the character), it's just trying its best to be a friendly, relaxing time, and when it becomes clear the player's not into that it puts up its dukes and gives you a real level. It's a fun character.

Except "when it becomes clear the player's not into that" doesn't happen with the way it's structured. I just went to the right first to grab the quick star I was promised and then come back and talk, and instead Level gets clingy and acts like I'm clearly just not interested in an "experience" level. Level's a dumbass, basically :T Written without an understanding of the playerbase, their habits or the one-sided medium it's in.
The ending of the left side also reads to me like Level's just putting on a friendly act - basically Customer Service Face, y'know? - and it really just wants to let loose like it does on the right side. Which would be a reasonably satisfying character arc, buuuuut that's not what the level does with it. Complete waste of potential.

Speaking of: the right side is excellent. Definitely pretty hard - definitely earns its mushrooms, if I remembered what was above a 4 I might even give it another half - but it's all super fun if you can keep up with it. The idea of thinking it was designed to be deliberately obnoxious and unfun is just wild to me; you don't get something like this if you're trying to be bad, you get something like Hell back in clown world or YUMP 38. If it's too much for you, that's fine, but taking it to be in bad faith is weird and honestly a little rude?

That's basically how I feel about the whole level, really, personal gripes aside. I think I enjoyed it because I was willing to just engage with it on its terms, not thinking about whether or not it's "pretentious" or "spiteful" or what have you. Level's just doing its best to give me a good time and a good time I had.

(I've never played Stanley Parable or any of that ilk of meta-story games, not sure how much that helped too)

[Leet]

I never get that seemingly omnipresent thing of players going "well what the game's saying isn't about me specifically". Yes, by stats I'd say that most works' themes aren't about you specifically! Especially in this case I feel like the level is targeting the position of a judge more than the post-judging player, but that doesn't mean we can't read its themes the same way we'd read any other work ever made. I've never actually thought "omg the game is actually addressing me, the player!" when a game addresses me, the player, but instead "oh, the work is using the ability to acknowledge my guaranteed presence as part of its fiction" - and then you can think about why it's doing that.

[FourteenthOrder]

When I say "by design", I mean the text gives me the impression that the right side was deliberately constructed to not entirely be worth going through. It's got its fun moments and given my love for hard levels I'd probably enjoy it a lot more in a vacuum, but in the context of the greater themes of the level, yes, it does come across as pretty bad-faith-y to me.

[KobaBeach]

i had a more scathing post written out to the people who attacked this level and kerkec but i'll just say that most of the people acting vicious towards this level (not disliking, you can dislike how its set up, the level design etc, outright being vicious and thinking this is kerkec's real opinion) are basically acting like lily orchard whenever she opens her godforsaken mouth about steven universe, a children's cartoon, which is to say, critically ignorant

[SAJewers]

I can't even say "damn this sure was a level" because I'm like...85% sure it doesn't count?

Based on the hour-or-more discussion in the spotzone, this was in fact, not a level, but a philosophical debate.

I've felt this way for a while but I think this is the ideal time to express it: the default SMBX text box seriously blows for readability when it's more than a couple lines. Seriously look at this madness



Each line is too close together and each word is too far apart! It isn't actually that much text, but my eyes swim over it like a sea. I have ADD and use a reading ruler to pace myself with books, but it's not like I have actual dyslexia or anything. People put far too much fucking text into their SMBX levels anyway - that's probably half the point the level is trying to make - but is it too much to ask that I don't have to actively focus to actually read it?

Justified text might also help as well in readability

[Rednaxela]

Justified text might also help as well in readability

I would more say it's just... a bad font, as far as all the ratios of letter spacing, letter width, space width, and line height are concerned. I almost always find justified text is far less readable at least to my eye. This is an exceptional case where I might find it slightly more readable when all else is equal, but only because the font properties are so horrible to begin with.
(Fun fact: I was responsible of some fine tuning of the font used for the readme/review text in MaGLX3, and I may have strong opinions about fonts)

[SAJewers]

Justified text might also help as well in readability

I would more say it's just... a bad font, as far as all the ratios of letter spacing, letter width, space width, and line height are concerned. I almost always find justified text is far less readable at least to my eye. This is an exceptional case where I might find it slightly more readable when all else is equal, but only because the font properties are so horrible to begin with.
(Fun fact: I was responsible of some fine tuning of the font used for the readme/review text in MaGLX3, and I may have strong opinions about fonts)

Interesting. I myself justified text far more readable.

[strongbadman]

Throwing my hat in the ring of "the smbx text is really bad" because hearing this discpurse has made it click as to why my eyes glaze over when there are mountains of text in a smbx level in this contest: it's genuinely difficult to read it. Maybe there still is too much text in some of these levels, but man. Something needs to be done.

[Sniggerb0bble]

Even leaving aside font or textbox styling, I do wonder how many text heavy levels would feel better if the text just scrolled.
UI presentation is so thoroughly fundamental to absorbing text and out of the box we don't have a lot we can do about it.
We do have other solutions of course, but in this setting I don't feel like many would think to look beyond the basic tools.

In my own level, in the text heavy portions I tried to make the boxes brief and put in very brief pauses between them to reduce the chance of accidental mashing. Even then I think some of the boxes are a bit too wordy, but you can only spend so much time balancing text when you've got so many boxes.
Just like in level design, the pacing of your text is paramount, and by default smbx really doesn't make that easy.

Anyway, please look forward to my inevitable visual novel short story in X4.

[strongbadman]

Even leaving aside font or textbox styling, I do wonder how many text heavy levels would feel better if the text just scrolled.
UI presentation is so thoroughly fundamental to absorbing text and out of the box we don't have a lot we can do about it.
We do have other solutions of course, but in this setting I don't feel like many would think to look beyond the basic tools.

In my own level, in the text heavy portions I tried to make the boxes brief and put in very brief pauses between them to reduce the chance of accidental mashing. Even then I think some of the boxes are a bit too wordy, but you can only spend so much time balancing text when you've got so many boxes.
Just like in level design, the pacing of your text is paramount, and by default smbx really doesn't make that easy.

Anyway, please look forward to my inevitable visual novel short story in X4.

It would really depend on how fast it scrolled. Too fast and it becomes a chore to actually go where ypu want. Too slow and it might actually be worse than no scrolling at all.

[Sniggerb0bble]

It would really depend on how fast it scrolled. Too fast and it becomes a chore to actually go where ypu want. Too slow and it might actually be worse than no scrolling at all.

Of course, I'm just speaking simplistically here, in a perfect world there'd be more control and variables that go into it. Most games that have scrolling text allow you to speed it up or instantly fill the box at the push of a button.

Even then, in the most ideal scenario the designer would have control over text font, size, box style, box positioning, delay between boxes, etc etc

My point here is that I wonder how much the perception of text boxes would improve if the UX was even just slightly altered.

[Veruchai]

The level said it was an experience level and it was.

I won't claim it was the best level yet.
I will claim it was the most interesting level.

Good, bad; decide for yourself.
I appreciated it.

[BobisOnlyBob]

I enjoyed this, I was a little disappointed that raocow was clearly so out-of-sorts and not appreciating the first half of the "experience" section, although I understand why - but I'm kinda glad it kinda-sorta won him around by the end of it. That was nice.

I absolutely agree on the textbox and typeface concerns though. It's currently not very accessible, clear, and just barely passes muster for basic legibility.

[RudeGuy]

I'm not sure how to feel about this level, but I think I'm on the "good" side. I haven't played/watched many "experience" levels, so I appreciated the novelty, plus I found the gameplay quite fun to watch (it has some very creative setups too). The biggest detail that struck me was the amount of text, while watching the video I was always thinking about how this level really needs some kind of text system that isn't just plain SMBX textboxes (although... I think that might detract from the experience, since those experience segments were made almost entirely of vanilla graphics). The level also really reminded me of some of Undertale's themes, which I'm not sure if that's good or not.

I enjoyed this, I was a little disappointed that raocow was clearly so out-of-sorts and not appreciating the first half of the "experience" section, although I understand why - but I'm kinda glad it kinda-sorta won him around by the end of it. That was nice.

I agree with this too. I was a little sad that raocow wasn't able to enjoy the right section at first, due to his tiredness.

[Kerkec]

So if you're completionist-minded, you would've had to do the right path anyway. I mean, I think it would be pretty weird to go for all stars but not all exits.

The exit counter came about as a necessity after the 21-star bonanza back in world 3, to pace out the unlock progression more smoothly. The level played today did not know that there would be an exit counter separate from the star counter, and neither did we until last year.

yeah, I had no idea that would be a thing, and if I'm honest I wasn't aware smbx tracked completion percent in the launcher either, I was not at all trying to screw over the actual completion or the hub team. I thought typically there was just a Super Final Thing in the postgame that required all stars and unlocking that was basically the way to indicate 100%, and therefore the unobtainable star would just not be counted for that and it'd all be fine. I pm'd sturg at one point after he finished judging to confirm that the star being unobtainable was absolutely intentional and said that if it would cause problems that it could just be straight up deleted entirely even though it would kinda break some of what the text was going for. I appreciate the workaround that was decided on, and I'm sorry if it was a headache to deal with, but I really wasn't trying to give anyone a hard time with it, nothing about my entry was meant to be mean-spirited or spiteful

still, that doesn't mean it wasn't any less of a pain, and it's on me for not being as knowledgeable about the engine as I should've maybe been, so sorry about that, but thanks for making it work anyway

I also want to say that I don't actually have any super strong opinion on the whole text vs gameplay thing, I think offbeat little experiences can be neat, but I also really understand that if you're playing mario, you probably expect mario. this level was kind of an extreme on both ends, and understandably probably doesn't appeal to pretty much anyone except for some who find that within itself interesting, even if I didn't pull it off the best (and also some who like the hard level part, which I didn't want to actually make so ungodly unreasonable that it'd be completely not worth playing)

anyway, I don't really have too much else to say other than that I'm not taking any dislike of the level personally, I feel like it's a valid response, and I'm glad some people enjoyed it anyway, or at the very least it kept things interesting

[LunarRainbowShyGuy]

- Level Comments -

13th Thicc Ninji Hell: I really liked this level. I found the wide Ninjis to be amusing, and they're also easier to jump on then regular sized Ninjis would be, which is something I appreciate. This level did feel rather short though; this is definitely the kind of level that I wouldn't mind being longer (although with how long the level right before it was I appreciated the change of pace).

12th Chief Chuckster's Demeaning Dungeon: I found riding the blocks thrown by the enemies here to be fun. Although I did run into the issue where if some of the enemies are synced up poorly you basically have to take a hit. Also I found it started to feel repetitive after a while; it didn't help that I had to play the entire level twice to get that last star coin.

I have to say that I'm not a fan of that last star coin. I wouldn't mind it if the checkpoint was in some seperate room right before the boss, so you could see that you missed a star coin before coming across the checkpoint (like with the second star coin), but as it is now I feel like it's really easy to just instinctively jump up into the checkpoint, which locks you out of being able to get the star coin.

I thought the boss was pretty alright. I did find the part where it drops bricks from above to be a little bit boring, but that's a pretty minor complaint.

- End of Level Comments -

[PapyrusSemi]

I saw the title and assumed it was nonsensical and, thus, an X-level and therefore X¹¹, but then I remembered that 'chief' is also an adjective.

13^th: Thicc Ninji Hell
First, I presume that the author's name, based on the context of the level name, is pronounced like chungus, as in Big Chungus. Either way, that level name strikes fear into my very soul.
and chongas did not disappoint. Those wide, three-eyed (triclopes?) Ninjis are certainly a sight to behold indeed. They absolutely fill me with dread, and I can see why they were banished to the deepest reaches of Hell itself. Speaking of which, this level does a good job looking like you're in Hell, what with the red rock walls (which, being the SMB1 ones but red and with some chunks gone, again reminds me of Mario Forever), the pits of lava, and the hands reaching up out of the rocks. Also, those eye Roto-Discs were a nice touch, but I can only assume they're either original or from Castlevania, because they don't look like the Servants of Cthulu.
The actual level itself looks like a pretty tight and alright platforming bopperooni. An emphasis on the solid and hopping properties of the Thicc Ninjis was pretty cool, as was using the red ones like wide lava Trouters. I was half-expecting a pyramid of Thiccjis bouncing on each other's heads, but at the same time, it would likely be a janky mess without careful arrangements, which Nintendo could probably do just fine but would be a good bit harder in Smebex.
Also, I cannot help but wonder as to whether raocow's mention of forest fires was just standard Rao nonsequitur silliness, or an aside reference to current events, because I'm at least 83% sure that he's in a region that's being affected by the smoke.

12^th: Chief Chuckster's Demeaning Dungeon
Forget that one, THIS strikes fear into my soul, if only because of the word Chuckster.
But, as it turns out, instead of Chucksters as you know them (residing in special stages and yeeting you into the void because you talked to them at an angle one degree too sharp), it's just Veggie Beetles.
The first segment with you dodging oncoming Ice Blocks was alright, but as soon as I saw raocow accidentally stand on one mid-flight, I knew EXACTLY where this was headed and, would you believe it, I was right: BEETLE BLOCK SURFING! It certainly looks cool as heck, though I bet it would take me a while to get the hang of jumping off, especially since Newton's First Law isn't in effect in Super Mario.
The combination block-surfing and block-dodging was an interesting twist, but not one that looks particularly pleasant if you have a spare hit you don't want to lose. As well, the Star Coins are a fair bit of a "gotcha!' moment, since the second one has you going too fast to likely recognize the pipe until after the fact, and it was hard to tell whether or not the tunnel to the third actually hid a secret or if it just brought the blocks offscreen to despawn. The level also looks kinda plain, but the graininess and varied sizes of the blocks does make for something more fresh-feeling than the vanilla SMB3 assets.
As for Chief Chuckster himself, it looks like a pretty good boss. The combination of a standard Buster Beetle, some Bullies, Wart, and item spawners was definitely interesting, and in fact pretty nifty, at least from the viewer side of things.
Also, the level reminded me of this truly glorious image:
(caution: wide load)

Also, "what's up with all the super-rad levels", I hear you ask? Well, we are in tier 11 out of 12 and we're in the top 15% of all entries in the contest, so there better be something the judges really like to get this far up.

[Grounder]

bonus: chief, you mind telling me what you're doing in a magl?

[Zephyr_DragonLord]

Turns out yesterday, as expected... had a TON of conversation. My mind's busy depleted, so my first piece on that level will remain my only piece for now. All the levels recently are real good. Today is no exception.

13th - Thicc Ninji Hell: This level's a great little jaunt into Hell. The platforming here feels real nice, there's a nice challenge to everything, and even the dragon coins are well-placed. The music also helps the level's already solid atmosphere become even better. The powerups and mindpoint here are very well placed, too. It's a little short, and doesn't overly push the boundaries besides the very good wide Ninjis, but what's there is wonderful, so I love it.

12th - Chief Chuckster's Demeaning Dungeon: The alliteration here in the title is wonderful, and the level itself is also very good. It's pretty honed in on Busters in terms of design. I love the block rides, and their use of obstacles works well enough, posing a decent challenge, and the powerup distribution is also solid. The Star Coins are a little sneaky snap-reaction traps, but they feel like main Mario placements, too. The boss is also real good, having a pretty fun and interactable fight. Great job with this level.

[Chongas]

Hey my level was played! And somehow I made it to tier 11 ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I wrote a little about it on the YT comments:

Dude, I REALLY was not expecting my level to reach anywhere near 13th place. To be honest I lack the programming knowledge to make any sort of fancy stuff, my plan was simply to work with what i knew - focus on the custom graphics and music and deliver a level with somewhat solid design choices. It's cool to see the effort payed off, and that you indeed CAN reach the top tiers without any coding shenanigans.

Also making it super concise and not "hellishly" difficult were deliberate choices of mine. I didn't want the level to drag for too long, overstaying its welcome, and I didn't want the difficulty to be an issue for the average player.

So yea, in the end it is a very simple level, but I'm glad people enjoyed!

And Papyrus raised a few interesting points, allow me to address them:

First, I presume that the author's name, based on the context of the level name, is pronounced like chungus, as in Big Chungus.

Also, those eye Roto-Discs were a nice touch, but I can only assume they're either original or from Castlevania

I was half-expecting a pyramid of Thiccjis bouncing on each other's heads, but at the same time, it would likely be a janky mess without careful arrangements

Chongas - Haha, I hadn't even thought about that coincidence! But no, it's a nickname I've been using for many years now, even before the Big Chungus memery began. It's an obscure Portuguese word, and Rao's pronunciation is quite good actually!

Roto-discs - Castlevania sprites indeed! I don't remember which one of them though unfortunately. So were the hanging corpses. Pansers were imps from Chrono Trigger, the buried hands also were from CT iirc, but heavily edited. I don't remember which NES game I took the small demons from. And the background I stole from the internet somewhere and I also can't remember who made it. I feel bad for not writing down the author name and giving them the due credit. It's something I'll keep in mind for future levels.

Ninji pyramid - That was my original intent, and I thought of making even more sections exploring Ninji stacks. But you're absolutely right, it became Jankville real quick, and I had to opt for a more consistent solution.

[KobaBeach]

thicc ninji hell: man demon's crest sure looks different from the last time i tried playing it
chief chuckster: yoooo this is the kind of mario stage i really like, really good way of pulling off a slight carol boss

Chongas - Haha, I hadn't even thought about that coincidence! But no, it's a nickname I've been using for many years now, even before the Big Chungus memery began. It's an obscure Portuguese word, and Rao's pronunciation is quite good actually!

És Brasileiro? Eu sou Português e nunca ouvi falar dessa palavra lol

Acho que o termo Chungus veio dos videos de Jim Sterling, elu (elu é genderqueer desde o ano passado acho eu) customava usar essa palavra como uma piada, raramente, que eu me lembre. A Reddit é que veio com esse Big Chungus acho eu, talvez numa subreddit de dank memes ou o que raio. As unicas partes da Reddit que uso são subreddits de video jogos de RPGs.

[Chongas]

És Brasileiro? Eu sou Português e nunca ouvi falar dessa palavra lol

Acho que o termo Chungus veio dos videos de Jim Sterling, elu (elu é genderqueer desde o ano passado acho eu) customava usar essa palavra como uma piada, raramente, que eu me lembre. A Reddit é que veio com esse Big Chungus acho eu, talvez numa subreddit de dank memes ou o que raio. As unicas partes da Reddit que uso são subreddits de video jogos de RPGs.

Directly from the land of Angra and Sepultura, yea, I'm Brazilian

I'm keeping the bit below under spoilers for non-lusophones who might not be interested in the minutiae of the Portuguese language

Haha, aqui é bem raro ouvir essa palavra ser usada, mas ela existe. A grafia correta na verdade é xongas, e significa literalmente "nada", por exemplo: "Não entendi xongas do que ele disse". Sempre achei hilária a sonoridade, por isso comecei a usar xD

O Big Chungus acho muito engraçado tb, mas o pessoal sempre acaba achando que uso o nick por causa do meme