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Donkey Kong Country 3 - Unbelievable type of a situation

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Xenesis
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Re: Donkey Kong Country 3 - Welcome to Kanada!

Postby Xenesis » 1 day ago

ano0maly wrote: In the first K. Rool fight at Kastle Kaos, I don't know if raocow grasped how the first phase was supposed to work: you duck under him so that he passes you, and you try to position yourself and the barrel so that after he passes by you have more time to hit him before he turns toward you again. This game doesn't involve ducking that often, and it makes you use it here.
I actually got a little frustrated that raocow insisted on throwing it over K. Rool's head rather than just chucking it at his back the majority of the time. He at least figured it out by Knautilus.

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Re: Donkey Kong Country 3 - Unbelievable type of a situation

Postby KobaBeach » 1 day ago

raocow wrote: the naming gimmick was

moves from Kuma, the bear from Tekken. Specifically the moves where selected from the Tekken Tag Tournament 2 itiration.

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Re: Donkey Kong Country 3 - Unbelievable type of a situation

Postby Kilgamayan » 1 day ago

I was so pissed when you questioned what the Banana Bird Queen had to do with K Rool because it confirmed that you talked straight over this line and paid absolutely no visual attention whatsoever to the dialogue and therefore completely biffed the opportunity to be comically incredulous at the idea of king-turned-pirate-turned-ghost-turned-mad-scientist K Rool casting magical spells

Anyway WANNA TAKE YOU FOR A RIDE etc

Also I suppose this was the perfect video thumbnail to end this LP given how much people hated this game
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Re: Donkey Kong Country 3 - Unbelievable type of a situation

Postby MonkeyShrapnel » 1 day ago

Uh...Do I just sign here? What do you mean it should be obvious? There are people in this world...well...a whole lot of people that can't follow basic instructions!

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Re: Donkey Kong Country 3 - Unbelievable type of a situation

Postby Piesonscreations » 1 day ago

That ending screen is so strange I thought something else was supposed to happen.
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Re: Donkey Kong Country 3 - Welcome to Kanada!

Postby Alice » 1 day ago

raocow, why do you insist on comparing DKC3 to DKC2 as your bar on whether it's good or not? It doesn't matter how good DKC3 could have been, the chances of it matching, let alone exceeding, DKC2 were basically non-existent. You should view it on its own merits instead.

You've spent basically the entire lp justifying DKC3 as somehow not being good simply because it doesn't live up to DKC2's legacy which is completely unfair to the game.
Leet wrote: I can't force people to like the game but I gotta say it's a little frustrating when the reasons people dislike it are things that I can't really get a grasp on. Like I don't know what a "spark" is or why changing the enemy designs is bad. On reflection though I do think the level design is less solid than DKC2. Also, I think it would have been amazing if they actually hid secret levels around the world instead of just those caves, ESPECIALLY for when you get the airship. It could have been this whole extended postgame.
The issue is that what raocow sees as it missing a spark doesn't line up with what those of us who like the game see, not that it's actually missing a spark.

Agreed on that latter point though. That would've been a great idea and it's too bad they didn't do that.
Kilgamayan wrote: I was so pissed when you questioned what the Banana Bird Queen had to do with K Rool because it confirmed that you talked straight over this line and paid absolutely no visual attention whatsoever to the dialogue and therefore completely biffed the opportunity to be comically incredulous at the idea of king-turned-pirate-turned-ghost-turned-mad-scientist K Rool casting magical spells
You don't really expect the guy who inexplicably missed the green level turning bright orange wouldn't just button through text without paying any attention at all to it, do you?

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Re: Donkey Kong Country 3 - Unbelievable type of a situation

Postby moogy » 1 day ago

The entirety of the banana bird nonsense feels like something the developers slapped together at the last minute to make it seem like the game had more content than it actually did. Like, the final ending screen is gated behind... a bunch of Simon Says minigames? Because K Rool is suddenly a wizard who trapped a giant bird behind a wall or something...? Okay, sure, whatever.

The way you only get access to the Gyrocopter after beating literally all of the meaningful content in the game is also pretty bizarre and says to me that they planned to do more with it but didn't have the time.

Overall DKC3 is in a sad place because, while it's not exactly a kusoge, it in no way even begins to live up to DKC2. Saying it should be judged on its own merits is a nice sentiment, but I don't agree - it's the exact same engine and the basic tenets of the level design are still in place. The fact that it failed to meaningfully iterate on DKC2 and ended up as this weird meandering mess of a game is absolutely a damning flaw when viewed in context of the series as a whole.

Personally, I absolutely hated Tropical Freeze too, since it also fails to live up to DKC2, but I think that's a less reasonable argument since it's by a different developer entirely and made close to 20 years later. DKC3 failing to live up to DKC2, though? Absolutely a game-breaking issue, imo.

(Also tbh a lot of DKC3 is just not very good even when viewed in a vacuum. Nobody can tell me they really find levels like Poison Pipeline compelling)

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Re: Donkey Kong Country 3 - Unbelievable type of a situation

Postby Xenesis » 1 day ago

It definitely feels like the Gyrocopter was there to allow you go access another entire world (Made incredibly obvious by the fact that raocow noted that the exact amount of extra B coins for the last Boomer would be "one extra world") and there was some serious time crunch at the end shortening some of those plans.

That nice big island by Mama Bird looks perfect for another world rather than a Banana Cave.

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Re: Donkey Kong Country 3 - Welcome to Kanada!

Postby YelseyKing » 1 day ago

Alice wrote: The issue is that what raocow sees as it missing a spark doesn't line up with what those of us who like the game see, not that it's actually missing a spark.
I mean... you can't *force* someone to find that "spark" if it's just not *there* for them. I'm in a similar situation to raocow. I *like* DKC3, but there's just a few things about it that feel... off to me. As I said on Discordhaus, DKC2 feels like a grand adventure, while DKC3 feels like a somber farewell.

This is all personal opinion, and I'm not saying anyone should agree with me if they don't already, but like... The atmosphere in DKC3 just feels really, really strange to me. The music is often quite somber and/or ominous, and there's this level of "over design" to the graphics that give them this strange "organic" feel that unsettles me; the water stages in particular trigger some kind of primal phobia within me in that regard. They're so overly elaborate with the "living coral reef" aspect that it invokes the same sort of feeling as creepy "inside a living creature" levels that have always freaked me out. The super creepy music does not help matters. This would be fine in a different game, but we're talking a whimsical game where you're playing as two cartoony child apes; I should not be getting the same feelings of dread I'd experience in a Silent Hill game. But again, these are just my feelings; your mileage may vary, and again, you're not obligated to agree with me.

I also can't help but feel like there's some hostility here between those who love the game and either don't see the flaws, or look upon what others see as "flaws" as positives... and those who just absolutely hate everything to do with the game and think it's crazy anyone *could* like it. I'm in neither of these camps. Also, comparisons with DKC2 are inevitable, given DKC3 is the followup to it, and in fact, this is something raocow himself even touched upon; as its own thing, it's perfectly fine, but compared to DKC2, well... your opinions are, again, going to vary on how it stacks up. Hell, even series like Final Fantasy, where absolutely none of the games in the main numbered series are directly related (not counting sequels/spinoffs), comparisons between games happen. Everyone has their favorites. That's fine. No one is "wrong". If DKC2 is your favorite, great. If DKC3 is your favorite, there's nothing wrong with that, either.
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Re: Donkey Kong Country 3 - Unbelievable type of a situation

Postby Leet » 1 day ago

I mean, even the "it lacks when you compare it to DKC2" thing is very alien to me because growing up I did see these games as almost the same game. The main difference was that 3 had a cool overworld and didn't make me pay money to leave the world or save my game, which made it far less stressful, so I liked it more then.

As an adult I can see the difference more in terms of level design at least. But all the talk about how different it is has been baffling me for years. 2 and 3 still have really similar structures (most levels have a unique gimmick, find bonuses to get bonus coins to unlock levels in the special world, use barrels to transform into animals, etc.). DKC1 is the one I see as not fitting in with the other two.
Well it is a decent hack but sometime its just too repetitif there no level that actually pop in your face and your like oh yeah that level they all ressemble themselves and just monster along the way.
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Re: Donkey Kong Country 3 - Unbelievable type of a situation

Postby Alice » 1 day ago

Leet wrote: I mean, even the "it lacks when you compare it to DKC2" thing is very alien to me because growing up I did see these games as almost the same game. The main difference was that 3 had a cool overworld and didn't make me pay money to leave the world or save my game, which made it far less stressful, so I liked it more then.

As an adult I can see the difference more in terms of level design at least. But all the talk about how different it is has been baffling me for years. 2 and 3 still have really similar structures (most levels have a unique gimmick, find bonuses to get bonus coins to unlock levels in the special world, use barrels to transform into animals, etc.). DKC1 is the one I see as not fitting in with the other two.
This is a lot of my issue too. I'd had DKC since it came out but I didn't get DKC2 or DKC3 until after DKC3 came out and got both of them in a very short period of time. To me they feel almost the same with some of DKC2's flaws such as the paying money to leave the world or save that you mentioned no longer being an issue. Meanwhile DKC1 feels completely different in comparison and I'm legitimately baffled how people could say DKC1 and DKC2 feel closer than DKC2 and DKC3 which is something raocow has implied or outright stated during this lp.
YelseyKing wrote:I also can't help but feel like there's some hostility here between those who love the game and either don't see the flaws, or look upon what others see as "flaws" as positives... and those who just absolutely hate everything to do with the game and think it's crazy anyone *could* like it. I'm in neither of these camps. Also, comparisons with DKC2 are inevitable, given DKC3 is the followup to it, and in fact, this is something raocow himself even touched upon; as its own thing, it's perfectly fine, but compared to DKC2, well... your opinions are, again, going to vary on how it stacks up. Hell, even series like Final Fantasy, where absolutely none of the games in the main numbered series are directly related (not counting sequels/spinoffs), comparisons between games happen. Everyone has their favorites. That's fine. No one is "wrong". If DKC2 is your favorite, great. If DKC3 is your favorite, there's nothing wrong with that, either.
I've freely stated numerous times that while DKC3 is my personal favorite I do think DKC2 is better. My issue largely lies in things like raocow comparing DKC1 and DKC2 favorably while the game that is much closer to DKC2 in design, DKC3, is compared quite poorly. Despite his claims otherwise, the opinion raocow has painted of DKC3 constantly as somehow being worse than it is simply for not living up to DKC2's legacy which isn't fair to the game. Yeah, it's not as good as DKC2. No matter how good DKC3 turned out it's incredibly unlikely it ever would have. It not living up to an unreasonable legacy does not make DKC3 worse than it is, however, which is where I cannot agree with raocow. It not living up to DKC2's legacy has absolutely no bearing on how good a game DKC3 is itself. The only way comparing it to DKC2 has any bearing is simply by saying it's not as good as DKC2 which is perfectly valid and nothing else.

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Re: Donkey Kong Country 3 - Unbelievable type of a situation

Postby Paragraph » 1 day ago

I think it's pretty much impossible to talk about DKC3 without comparing it to DKC2; even if it were branded Chameleon and Bat's Double Trouble instead, it would still have been a Rare-made platformer where you find secrets and fight bosses etc. - it's the same issue that leads people to compare Bloodborne to Dark Souls (usually favorably) and Sekiro as well (mixed, in my experience). The games' DNA is obviously incredibly similar, not only from the name and engine, but also from the mission statement, design philosophy and so on; and that's why comparisons are always there.

And the thing is, for many people, DKC2 is pretty much the best platformer ever made (at least from the pure platforming and level design aspects), so a statement like "sure DKC3 is worse at those aspects than DKC2, but why compare them at all" is imho a little absurd; if you already acknowledge that one game is the pinnacle of design in its genre, ANY other game must have some shortcomings. You can say those are not an issue for you, or the differences even appeal to you, but that's not what is often said.

One should also be aware that "worse than" does not mean "bad", and "this decision really didn't appeal to me" does not mean "it's therefore objectively wrong to like the game".

With that in mind, let's try to define what people mean with the "spark" that DKC2 has and that DKC3 ostensibly lacks, and I will not shy away from comparisons, because see above.

What I see as the "spark" in a game is when it does something truly special, when you see an absolute stroke of genius, and when that is a consistent quality of the entire game and not just a singular piece of brilliance. It's when you see that everyone involved in the production, from engine designers to graphic artists to sound team cared about making the very best product they could deliver, and succeeded wholesale.


DKC2 has this level of care, consistency and success. Its enemy designs fit with each other (style, palette, theme) and with the atmosphere of the world (muted, darker, somber). It has levels designed with one goal througout: to keep you moving, always give you something to do, never a second of downtime, waiting, adjusting. There are almost no instances where DKC2 forces you to stop and adjust to some timing or wait for a cycle. It's often cited that in the first mine level, you do not have to stop going from cannon to cannon even once, and that seems like a trite observation, but to me, that's an incredible achievement. Every Zinger had to be meticulously placed to spawn and activate at exactly the right time, working with cannon speed, player movement, and hardware limitations to deliver you this experience. Whoever made this level really, really cared about getting this effect, and this philosphy is apparent in almost every DKC2 level. THIS is the spark. Holistic design of the entire game to wow you, to make you feel good about playing it, every second.


And this is where DKC3 falls short in comparison. Many of the gimmicks are in fact just making you wait: shooting owls, badly timed rocket barrels, fish missiles (Bazaas, sp?), nut monkeys, and so on and so forth. Designing a timing challenge where you have to stop and gauge the timing is vastly easier than making one where "just go" is always the correct solution, and "they took the easy way out" like this is not only apparent in level design decisions like this. Many level segments are repeated wholesale. Animations were not programmed which were in DKC2 (someone brought up the bulging eyes upon beholding a boss). Bonuses are clever maybe 30% of the time.

I made sure to praise the moments where DKC3 showed a spark. Ripsaw Rage is a brilliant concept, solid execution, and has an amazing twist for its bonus. Crack-Shot Croc is a slow level, but has a consistent pace to it, generates stress really well, communicates its gimmick impressively, and has the best bonus in the series. What they do with Bazuka in his two levels is inspired. But those are singular appearances of the spark, it's not something that's present in the entire game. For every great idea, concept, gimmick, DKC3 has two levels where you tediously throw barrels at rats, wait for clams or copters to pass again and again, or press left instead of right to go on.

This is why I feel the game is just not up to par, and of course it would be fine in a complete vacuum, with no competition, no comparison, or, hell, favorable comparisons: it's for sure a billion times superior to some random licensed shovelware platformer, and I'd also say it's better than DKC1. But it has to exist as the sequel to DKC2, you cannot talk about DKC3 without it, it would not exist at all without DKC2.


And apart from all that, I have a very personal hatred for some of its design decisions which makes me unfairly harsh in my assessment. Sure. But I'm not a reviewer, I don't care about being unfair.

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Re: Donkey Kong Country 3 - Unbelievable type of a situation

Postby RobinLSL » 19 hours ago

Paragraph wrote: (paraphrased) DKC3 doesn't have the "spark" because its level design makes you wait a lot.
Interestingly enough, I have a wildly different opinion on this. I don't think the slower gameplay rhythm is a problem at all. I think the "spark" is more about the game as a piece of art (including graphics, world, music, and so on) than gameplay. DKC3 attempts to send you on a grand adventure, and indeed the world map does convey this about the Northern Kremisphere. But this is too ambitious overall, and wasn't reflected well enough in the story and characters, visual design and even maybe even basic gameplay structure? ('m not quite sure that linear 2d level fit with that scope). And KAOS and K.Rool are just really terrible villains.

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Re: Donkey Kong Country 3 - Unbelievable type of a situation

Postby AuraLancer » 18 hours ago

Huh, and here I thought this was definitely the most raocowiest DKC3 game.


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