Wario Land 3 - With input from Samus

[Leet]

theory : The "monsters" are the people. They don't kill wario not because he's invincible but because they aren't hostile.

[Sebby19]

Err, I don't think setting him on fire, smooshing him flat, and cutting him in half isn't 'not trying to kill him'. Definitely hostile monsters.

[Leet]

But they don't kill him.

The robots and caterpillars are probably just robots and caterpillars, actually. But those aren't "monsters", those are just real things. The people feeding Wario food and drink are also not "monsters", just people who are inconveniencing you, the player.

[Sebby19]

Err, I don't think setting him on fire, smooshing him flat, and cutting him in half isn't 'not trying to kill him'. Definitely hostile monsters.

Everything I listed would kill a normal man. Ofcourse, Wario is not a normal man. I believe now that along with getting a castle, Wario received immortality from the genie. This explains so many things now. Even in WL4, he doesn't die, he just get's kicked out of the level.

[Paragraph]

The golf minigame is insanely annoying. It's not too hard to get "good" at it, but it's never FUN.

Also I truly hate the Volcano's base level. The constant running back to the slopes if you mess up a single too-tight button input drives me insane. Especially if you're going for all coins.

And today we learned about the true reason I hate the Volcano's Base so much: not only do you have to roll correctly at the bottom and backtrack all the time, you also have to jump correctly above, then fall down, and THEN backtrack.

I'm very firmly in the "this game's getting hit system is way too fucking annoying" camp, and I think all the arguments have been said already, but let's reiterate again:
- usually in Mario, you can have one or even two protective layers that allow you to just simply get hit, have a half-second animation, and move on with your life. In games with health systems, you have even more protective layers. In WL3, if you get hit, you ALWAYS take the full penalty. This way, it's more unforgiving.
- if you die in Mario, you get a five-second or so period of death animation + loading + level reentry, and then you get to replay the damn level, which, yes, can take longer than any amount of setback you experience in WL3, but the key thing is the replay part. Ideally, playing any given level is fun, so having to redo parts shouldn't matter that much, right? Well, in WL3 you have the redo part, but ALSO 15-20 seconds of waiting until your transformation finally ends so you can attempt another go. It's a huge-ass time in which you simply cannot do anything, just helplessly sitting there as fire/druck/ice Wario hurls himself into a pit.
- many times, you don't even have to replay much. On the last screen of today's level, getting hit by the caterpillars literally only wasted your time; you get hit, you watch Wario roll around for a long-ass time, then you try again. Every time you get hit once, you sit there twiddling your thumbs, getting angry.

This is a very psychological issue, of course one could always argue that if the caterpillars just (instantly? Assuming you didn't have any other kind of health or protection system?) killed you, you'd have to redo more. But you're SITTING THERE DOING NOTHING. It's anti-gameplay. It's incredibly frustrating and insulting, almost.

One should also note that in this entire discussion about WL3 being too tedious with this shit or not, nobody ever complains about WL2. Because they got it right in that game. There was rarely ever a situation where you couldn't get rid of an unwanted transformation quickly, the levels were more compact so the "fall down a pit, redo everything" instances just didn't happen, and - key point - there was an extra element of punishment, which is that getting hit took away some coins. That way, you could have a whole lot of normal enemies that JUST "hurt" Wario, without needing to hurt him in a way that specifically wastes time for the player.

[pholtos]

Man with all that sorta talk...I can't wait for...

the forest of fear. :P

[Sebby19]

Haha, early before work update!

[Veruchai]

I enjoyed how the levels where you needed to backtrack to in order to use your new swimming flippers all clearly had water on the overworld.

[Nimono]

theory : The "monsters" are the people. They don't kill wario not because he's invincible but because they aren't hostile.

Oh, they're definitely hostile- look at how much they interfere with you getting the treasures! JERKS! >:<

[J. J. W. Mezun]

017. S3 Tower of Revival - Gray

Sunny day
in a dusty tower.
I exhale...


018. W3 The Pool of Rain - Green

Rainy pool ~
in snaky currents,
devil wolf.


019. S2 The Big Bridge - Red

Sunny bridge ~
arctic bears wake up
for winter.

-------------------

I feel kinda bad 'bout the light jabs I made 'bout raocow's complaints yesterday. In his defense, I can imagine playing Super Mario World so many times makes Wario Land 3's bumpier controls feel extremely off.

'Specially since this episode has some annoying treasures, most notably the wizard boss, who is stupidly called "Wolfenboss" in the English translation, despite being called a kitsune in the Japanese version. Actually, its Japanese name is "kezune", which apparently means "hairy shins". Also, in the Spanish translation, they call this wizard a coyote; so clearly nobody can agree on what this wizard thing is s'posed to be.

I consider Hairy Shins to unquestionably be the hardest boss in this game, e'en harder than the final boss, who is actually easy. I might e'en consider this boss to be the hardest part o' the game, period. I don't know if raocow had as much o' a problem, since he doesn't mention it, but measuring where to hit the Goomba so it bounces off the wall @ the right place & hits Hairy Shins is hard to orchestrate, 'specially since you have li'l control o'er where Hairy Shins & the Goomba move & have to maneuver them while dodging Hairy Shins's other attacks. & then there's the spike ball he drops, which, as raocow mentions, creates annoying earthquakes & bounces on the 3rd drop. If he drops it near the wall, you're 'tween it & that wall, & it bounces toward that wall ( which is mo' likely ), you're basically guaranteed hit.

Then you have that uninspired red treasure in "The Big Bridge", which they, unsurprisingly, made have a filler treasure. To be fair, the trick to getting past the Brrr Bear by using an earlier 1 is clever ( though not necessary, actually, as you can tackle that Brrr Bear before it hits you if you're quick 'nough — I know 'cause that was how I always did that part as a kid, having not thought o' the intended trick ). But having the red key be just in a whole right before the chest is lame. I would've put the red key in a different room underwater, so you have a reason to explore underwater. Then 'gain, I probably wouldn't have this Brrr Bear room be in this treasure, since it has nothing to do with swimming.

Having the gray treasure be @ the beginning o' a level

is quite a common occurence in this game

, & must've been the seed for Wario Land 4's game-wide gimmick o' having you return to the start after getting a key & hitting a switch to beat a level. Some viewers may remember that Wario Land II had this once with 1 o' the cellar levels, 'cept 'cause that game was linear, they made it so the exit door was simply on the 1st screen, but you had to get to it from a different route.

[Ashan]

Of course as soon as you learn to swim, the logical boss you fight with your new ability is a flying kangaroo wizard

[Blue]

there was an extra element of punishment, which is that getting hit took away some coins. That way, you could have a whole lot of normal enemies that JUST "hurt" Wario, without needing to hurt him in a way that specifically wastes time for the player.

This is actually the biggest reason this LP convinced me to never play WL3. I didn't like WL2 because the punishment of only losing some coins never really had any tension and never felt like an actual punishment. There was no struggle and no fear so it was boring. This game presents absolutely no threat whatsoever, so what's even the point of playing it? All you're forced to do is sit and watch basically a 'you failed' cutscene. Might as well watch a movie and randomly mash on the remote every so often since it'd be about the same.

[Leet]

"the only appeal of videogames is win/lose" is one of the most boring takes imaginable

[Ashan]

This game presents absolutely no threat whatsoever, so what's even the point of playing it?

To progress? The goal is to solve puzzles and beat levels to unlock items that allow you to beat more levels.
The threat is not being able to progress due to lack of skill, as is the case in every other video game ever.

[Sebby19]

Story time! With Wario Land 3

The chain of deals...
...Suddenly, the amazing Tower of Revival rises up from the ground on the South side. Inside is no where else to go but up! What an ancient looking place. Hidden at the bottom of the Tower is the Swim Fins, giving Wario the power to overcome all the buoyant lard and fat in his body. Hey Wario, what could be at the bottom of The Pool of Rain, or under The Big Bridge?
At the bottom of The Pool of Rain rests the Mist Fan. This magic item has the capability to blow away the supernatural fog, hiding the East side. The weird thing about this side is that its in perpetual darkness. Not a very cheerful place, compared to the other compass directions. Is because it's in the shadow of the big volcano, blocking the light coming into the cave (of the real world?
Greeting Wario on this side is The Stagnant Swamp. Unlike the cheerful marsh that the Mist Fan was found in, this place is dank, dirty, and unhygenic. I don't think you can swim in that thing, Watio. Best find some way around it, because...

[Shard1697]

"the only appeal of videogames is win/lose" is one of the most boring takes imaginable

replace "only" with "main" and you have the sincere, if unspoken, opinion of most people who play videogames

[Alice]

replace "only" with "main" and you have the sincere, if unspoken, opinion of most people who play videogames

I thought the appeal of video games was, y'know, having fun and enjoying yourself.

[Arctangent]

"the only appeal of videogames is win/lose" is one of the most boring takes imaginable

replace "only" with "main" and you have the sincere, if unspoken, opinion of most people who play videogames

this is a paper-thin claim repeated ad nauseum by self-righteous gamers who feel the overwhelming need to take pride in how hardcore they are


and this is coming from a girl who mainly plays competitive multiplayer games

[FPzero]

I guess it all just comes down to your own personal psychology. I know that I find myself far more frustrated with things like romhacks when Mario dies in a couple hits and I have to redo a lot of the level. Here, while there are setbacks from fighting and losing against a boss, the journey back is often much shorter than if I'd had to start from the beginning again. Even though some of the transformation punishments do feel like they waste my time, I'd rather have them than restart everything. Plus, making Wario invincible to enemies but able to be transformed instead lead to a bunch of neat little puzzles in the series.

Wario Land 1 is a solid game, but I feel like it's definitely the weakest in part because it was structured so similarly to a normal Mario game.

[Nimono]

I can somewhat see where people are coming from. People aren't saying they want to be able to fail, they want consequences for messing up outside "level takes longer". Look at Kirby's Epic Yarn- I personally think the game looks like a massive exercise in boredom precisely because it's set up to NEVER let you fail, because the developers felt being punished for your mistakes meant the game was no fun. (Fun fact: They only added Kirby to the game because they found the game unexciting and almost didn't finish it- until they were suggested to add Kirby. THEN they somehow had tons of fun with it?)

But this game is structured differently from that. It's purely exploration, with some platforming elements. The idea was clearly for you to want to go check all the levels again at different stages to see if anything's changed, if anything new has opened up, that's very clearly the original intent given no damage- but the game already tells you this when you collect an item that makes a change... Still, I find the game fun for its exploration aspects anyway. So, don't say the game's bad- the game's just not for you, and that's fine! No skin off my bones if ya don't like Wario Land 3, there's plenty of games out there I KNOW you'll enjoy! ^^

Also the ending of the game shows that the lack of damage is INTENTIONAL in-story

[Shard1697]

replace "only" with "main" and you have the sincere, if unspoken, opinion of most people who play videogames

I thought the appeal of video games was, y'know, having fun and enjoying yourself.

Right, and it's fun to win. Especially if it takes a little doing.

[FourteenthOrder]

Since I was one of the people complaining, I feel like I ought to say I find Wario Land 3 super fun. I just think I'd like it even more if it had a more traditional health/death system given how just plain annoyed I feel sometimes playing it. ^^;

[Awoo]

I, for one, can't *wait* for raocow to play through Wario Land 4. I've been looking forward to it ever since he started his Wario Land LP series!

Yes, I am aware that he played through it some time ago. I actually played it myself along with him when he did it :3

[Leet]

There are hundreds of Pure Skill, No Content video games available for the Apple iPhone and Google Android Cellular Computer Devices for people who hate Content

Meanwhile in WarioLand3 we will enjoy the experience of exploring a colorful world filled with strange and creative creatures and puzzles

For the topic that people actually care about, I don't think "you can't die" is a blockade to good design at all and there are several(?) examples of challenges in this game in which messing up and restarting works without being frustrating, but they don't stand out at all because they move along smoothly. (I say this as an observer of the LP and not someone with a lot of personal experience.) For sure, there are many that can be frustrating but "you can't die" is not the reason as to why at all; if the level designer fails to build around that gimmick properly, it's not the gimmick's fault, I'd say.

[Ditocoaf]

How could you even begin to make such a change to WL3, even? A core of the game is the idea that some enemies are puzzle solutions and you need to figure out which ones and how.