Make A Good Level Contest (SMW) 3 - Discussion

would you like to participate in some fun contests? would you like to create some fun contests? well ^_^
User avatar
King of GETs
Posts: 147
Joined: 8 years ago

Re: Make A Good Level Contest (SMW) 3 - Discussion

Post by King of GETs »

ft029 wrote:
King of GETs wrote:This was my first time making a level specifically for SMW, and it might end up being my last. I kept running into random invisible solid block glitches with my level which made me redesign some parts of the level. I'm assuming it was due to the high block count, but I have no idea.
Aah, it has nothing to do with high block count. In many areas of your level, there are coin blocks directly above glass blocks. Hitting the glass block will turn the coin directly above it into an invisible solid block. It's an obscure glitch that could be used in creative ways.
Strange, I never encountered that while testing.

However, that's not the glitch I'm talking about. Whether the area was blank or had coins in it, even if I hadn't collected a single coin or started fresh from the midpoint, random invisible solid blocks would keep showing up, although in fixed places.

I did take advantage of being able to get coins by hitting the glass blocks as shown in the ending part of the secret exit route. The physics were so fascinating to me. You could hit normal coins and coins turned solid by a P-Switch, but you couldn't get P-Switch coins or blue coins. Also, you can always kill unshelled Koopas and bullet bills underneath, but you could only kill footballs sometimes. Is there a defined reason for this?
User avatar
ft029
m/m wannabe
Posts: 537
Joined: 6 years ago
Location: U.S.

Re: Make A Good Level Contest (SMW) 3 - Discussion

Post by ft029 »

well that's because footballs bounce high and koopas/bullets don't :D
Mosts Awards:
Image
Image
User avatar
King of GETs
Posts: 147
Joined: 8 years ago

Re: Make A Good Level Contest (SMW) 3 - Discussion

Post by King of GETs »

ft029 wrote:well that's because footballs bounce high and koopas/bullets don't :D
Shouldn't all footballs be unkillable, then? And it isn't based on placement as I tested it and sometimes one football is killable and another is unkillable, and when I redo the level, the killable one is now unkillable and vice versa.
User avatar
Slimeman01
Minecraft Lore Creationist
Posts: 584
Joined: 8 years ago
First name: Matt
Pronouns: he/him/his
Location: British Columbia baybee

Re: Make A Good Level Contest (SMW) 3 - Discussion

Post by Slimeman01 »

I'm wondering if anybody tried my level?
I want some feed back so if there's a MALG 4, or some other SMW project, I can improve/change anything
:iris: :demo:
raocow wrote:To answer your question Slimeman yes that is super fine
raocow wrote:alright guys what are the weirdest levels of world 4 ?! Make sure to pay attention to tomorrow's video as this may alter your answer!!
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
User avatar
FPzero
Resident SMW Central Admin
Posts: 624
Joined: 13 years ago

Re: Make A Good Level Contest (SMW) 3 - Discussion

Post by FPzero »

LunarRainbowShyGuy wrote:Since people seem to be saying which editor they like better I guess I'll give my thoughts. Currently I think I prefer making levels in SMBX. Not that I don't like Lunar Magic but there are some things about it that gave me issues. It probably doesn't help that I decided to make a vertical level for my first SMW level; apparently making vertical levels is super weird in a way I can't even describe. Fortunately, after I figured everything out it didn't take too long to make my level. (I spent one afternoon getting everything set up and figuring out how vertical levels work, and another afternoon was spent making my level.)

Also, I have a feeling my level is one of the shorter ones. I tried looking at the vertical levels that are already in SMW for length comparison but SMW doesn't really have many vertical levels to compare with. All of SMW's vertical levels are pretty short too. Some of the levels I looked at were only five screens long.
So the thing with vertical levels is that, like many Nintendo games, they work only as well as Nintendo needed them to. That's why they work in SMW, but have a very hard time functioning properly in romhacks unless you know how to work around their limitations.

Unless you're using the Direct Map16, vertical levels cannot have objects that stretch over the screen and subscreen boundaries. Level entrances only work on Even screen numbers. Using a normal goal tape is high unrecommended. Midpoints may or may not function properly depending on where they're placed. I'm sure there's a few more problems with them but I can't remember the rest.

Vertical levels can be made to work, but they're definitely more challenging than horizontal ones to get working properly.
User avatar
FPzero
Resident SMW Central Admin
Posts: 624
Joined: 13 years ago

Re: Make A Good Level Contest (SMW) 3 - Discussion

Post by FPzero »

*double post on accident*
Last edited by FPzero 6 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Lunikyuu
I forgot what I was going to put here after MaGL X3
Posts: 303
Joined: 8 years ago
Location: soup

Re: Make A Good Level Contest (SMW) 3 - Discussion

Post by Lunikyuu »

I think the nail in the coffin for me was the tileset limitations. I'm used to SMBX where you can basically use any enemy/block type with anything without issue and I had already planned to have 2 different things from different tilesets which were both key to the design of my level, and by the time I learned about map16 editing, I felt like I didn't have enough time to dedicate to learning it (kind of my own fault though for procrastinating...). That said, even though I'm more of a SMBX person, I'd still be willing to learn more of Lunar Magic someday, maybe before MaGL 4 or something.
User avatar
nothobz
of the jungle
Posts: 182
Joined: 6 years ago
First name: george
Location: look out! a tree!

Re: Make A Good Level Contest (SMW) 3 - Discussion

Post by nothobz »

FirePhoenix wrote:lol, I spent about a grand total of 2 or 3 minutes on the overworld for our level:

Image

This was at like, 11:15 PM before the deadline with Tyty yelling at me that we had to submit.
that is a very bad overworld sorry
User avatar
FPzero
Resident SMW Central Admin
Posts: 624
Joined: 13 years ago

Re: Make A Good Level Contest (SMW) 3 - Discussion

Post by FPzero »

Tileset editing is a fine art, especially when it comes to cramming together as many 8x8s as you can into a single file. It used to be less expansive though. Back when Lunar Magic was on v1.63 for five years, the max number of graphics files you could load at once was 8: 4 foreground/background sets and 4 sprite sets. Two of both the FG/BG and sprite tiles were used in 95% of all levels, so if you wanted custom stuff you really had only about 2 FG/BG files to work with because sprite edits were less common. Additionally, you only had 32 pages of Map16 to work with, four of which were already used by the original game AND they were also split into 16 for foregrounds and 16 for backgrounds. These days you can have 11 graphics files: 6 FG/BG, 4 Sprites and 1 ExAnimation file and 128 Map16 pages. This opened up HUGE possibilities when it came to adding extra graphics and it's so hard to think back to those times when we didn't have this freedom.
nothobz wrote:
FirePhoenix wrote:lol, I spent about a grand total of 2 or 3 minutes on the overworld for our level:

*snip*

This was at like, 11:15 PM before the deadline with Tyty yelling at me that we had to submit.
that is a very bad overworld sorry
thankfully this wasn't the make a good overworld contest, dodged that bullet
User avatar
nothobz
of the jungle
Posts: 182
Joined: 6 years ago
First name: george
Location: look out! a tree!

Re: Make A Good Level Contest (SMW) 3 - Discussion

Post by nothobz »

if it was i probably would win sooner but i have to wait ;)
User avatar
King of GETs
Posts: 147
Joined: 8 years ago

Re: Make A Good Level Contest (SMW) 3 - Discussion

Post by King of GETs »

Slimeman01 wrote:I'm wondering if anybody tried my level?
I want some feed back so if there's a MALG 4, or some other SMW project, I can improve/change anything
Due to the overabundance of Charlies, Yoshi's body and Charlie's head kept disappearing, enemies/power-ups didn't spawn/downright disappeared when something else loaded, etc. Having the midpoint over a hole and the first power-up after the midpoint requiring you to bounce on a Wiggler was not a good idea. Also, your levels weren't properly labeled, so you really should have deleted the left level since it looks like you have two full levels submitted. I played the left level, and it has a rude cutoff point after the midpoint, so if I mistook that for the level you submitted, that would have been bad.
User avatar
Slimeman01
Minecraft Lore Creationist
Posts: 584
Joined: 8 years ago
First name: Matt
Pronouns: he/him/his
Location: British Columbia baybee

Re: Make A Good Level Contest (SMW) 3 - Discussion

Post by Slimeman01 »

King of GETs wrote:
Slimeman01 wrote:I'm wondering if anybody tried my level?
I want some feed back so if there's a MALG 4, or some other SMW project, I can improve/change anything
Due to the overabundance of Charlies, Yoshi's body and Charlie's head kept disappearing, enemies/power-ups didn't spawn/downright disappeared when something else loaded, etc. Having the midpoint over a hole and the first power-up after the midpoint requiring you to bounce on a Wiggler was not a good idea. Also, your levels weren't properly labeled, so you really should have deleted the left level since it looks like you have two full levels submitted. I played the left level, and it has a rude cutoff point after the midpoint, so if I mistook that for the level you submitted, that would have been bad.
Ok. Thanks for taking time to review my level!
I do realize I probably should've done something about the first grass level, you aren't the only person to make that mistake :oops:
And now I know the answer why power ups and things were disappearing. Thanks for letting me know!
:iris: :demo:
raocow wrote:To answer your question Slimeman yes that is super fine
raocow wrote:alright guys what are the weirdest levels of world 4 ?! Make sure to pay attention to tomorrow's video as this may alter your answer!!
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
User avatar
Mandew
d'yo
Posts: 515
Joined: 13 years ago
First name: Marc
Pronouns: a person
Location: canada
https://fishingseasontraversal.talkhaus.com/

Re: Make A Good Level Contest (SMW) 3 - Discussion

Post by Mandew »

Do I dare ask what some of ya thought about my level?
Image
video games
User avatar
raekuul
2 Nephi 2:25-27
Posts: 1484
Joined: 13 years ago
First name: Pokota
Pronouns: he/him/his
Location: Colony Gamma
Contact:

Re: Make A Good Level Contest (SMW) 3 - Discussion

Post by raekuul »

Me:"All right I scored a full 10 points for Adherence To Level Name!"

Judge:"You do know that's not a category in MaGL3, right?"

Me:"...yes"
Games Beaten In 2020, 2021, 2022, 2023
Image
S.N.N.
Posts: 557
Joined: 13 years ago
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Make A Good Level Contest (SMW) 3 - Discussion

Post by S.N.N. »

Mandew wrote:Do I dare ask what some of ya thought about my level?
There was a good level there, but that wall jump patch was a pain to control. Kind of marred the experience for me.

Another entry used wall jump blocks that controlled much better - I kind of wish they were used here, or that the patch was modified so you didn't have to hold the opposite button against the wall as you're sliding down. This made one part in particular (with the floating triangle) an absolute nightmare to try and climb.
User avatar
Le Neveu de Rameau
I'm a hoobsie roller; I got robots in my life
Posts: 994
Joined: 7 years ago
First name: Rameau's Nephew
Location: Gettin' gibbly with the business

Re: Make A Good Level Contest (SMW) 3 - Discussion

Post by Le Neveu de Rameau »

Mandew wrote:Do I dare ask what some of ya thought about my level?
There's some very neat ASM tricks here; I was rather surprised, for instance, how much the alternative death sequence helped to keep my concentration in line and generally make death feel like less of an interruption. On the other hand, I think that the wall kicks (here and everywhere in SMW) were a mistake; they're clumsy and awkward to perform, and every when they work exactly as planned, they still feel bad.

On the whole, I liked the first half of the level; it was a pleasant little obstacle course with some unique gimmicks, and an agreeable if simple vanilla (+ music) æsthetic. The second half, on the other hand, it primarily based on wall-kicking up shafts, which makes it considerably less enjoyable. It's not a great feeling when your primary source of difficulty comes from fighting with what's supposed to be one of your central movement mechanics; failures don't seem like they're due to your own mistakes; successes seem more due to chance than your own skill. Also, the platform near the final midpoint has a tendency not to respawn if you die near it, which can leave the player stranded until it decided to come back for arcane reasons. Having played ParmaJon's level before yours, it eventually occurred to me that I could just VIP it up and jump directly onto the triangle, meaning the platform wasn't strictly necessary, but I'm not sure most players would find that an ideal solution.

I'd say you nailed the level length pretty much perfectly, though, which is not to be overlooked. A number of levels in the contest had an unfortunate tendency to start off strong then proceed to completely run their gimmick into the ground, doing every last possible complicated variant until the player gets bored and frustrated, but this level knew precisely when to stop. It had something to say, said it, and didn't feel the need to belabor the point.
User avatar
morsel/morceau
Posts: 395
Joined: 13 years ago
Location: exotic horse island

Re: Make A Good Level Contest (SMW) 3 - Discussion

Post by morsel/morceau »

Le Neveu de Rameau wrote:...which can leave the player stranded until it decided to come back for arcane reasons...
until the player gets bored and frustrated...[/spoiler]
I am also reluctant to say what I think of many levels, but I stop short of dragging a poor benighted puppet in to speak for me. The first time we encounter this 'player', he is the objective figure one would expect; the second time he seems to have adopted all your opinions and reactions. If you mean that you think these things you must say so: this weak-knee'd namby-pamby continental flip-floppyism is unworthy of a precisian I've seen using ligatures.
dont wanna jihad no more
User avatar
Mandew
d'yo
Posts: 515
Joined: 13 years ago
First name: Marc
Pronouns: a person
Location: canada
https://fishingseasontraversal.talkhaus.com/

Re: Make A Good Level Contest (SMW) 3 - Discussion

Post by Mandew »

Le Neveu de Rameau wrote:critique
S.N.N. wrote:critique
Hmm! Those are actually very vital points you both are bringing up. I wouldn't have realized how the wall-jump patch is so awkward and uninviting by myself, so thanks for pointing it out. This is something I should be way more wary of in the future. I'm not putting any blame on the patch itself - after all, I'm the one who decided to use the thing, so it's my mistake.

As for the grey platform not spawning sometimes... I should have at the very least better designed that part to ensure that the player would have it available. I got carried away with a neat arrangement and overlooked the possibility that the player wouldn't be familiar with the engine enough to figure out how to respawn it - and that's entirely my bad.

Considering the game heavily suggests to use the grey platform to access the purple triangle, then the fact that there's a back-up plan available is irrelevant to the immediate experience - it will absolutely not negate any frustration and negative hampering provided by the grey platform not being there for awkward reasons, and I now understand that this is something I should be wary of in the future as well.

Anyways, that is very good critique and it made me actually glad I asked!
Image
video games
User avatar
FPzero
Resident SMW Central Admin
Posts: 624
Joined: 13 years ago

Re: Make A Good Level Contest (SMW) 3 - Discussion

Post by FPzero »

One of the more difficult parts of vanilla SMW hacking is sprite memory and limitations management, especially if you plan to use multiple "interactive" sprites like the variety of platform types. I believe some patches have been made to either negate or mitigate sprite memory limits but in vanilla SMW you have to be very careful and make sure to choose the proper sprite data header. Of course, if you're totally new to SMW hacking, you probably don't even know what or where it is or how to read it so you know what you're choosing. I know it's a little late to be giving tutorials for this contest but if anyone remains interested in making more SMW levels, here's how to read and change the sprite data header.

Sprite Memory is accessed through the Lakitu head button on the toolbar. The following comes from Lunar Magic's Help File (which you should definitely read if you haven't before since it contains an enormous amount of information for all its functions).
Level Menu : Change Properties in Sprite header
The dialog you get from this menu will let you change the options in the sprite data header.

The drop-down list referred to as the Sprite Memory list (formerly called "Sprite Display 1" in older versions of Lunar Magic) controls how memory is allocated for the sprites. This list doesn't show the actual memory requirements of each sprite and the memory allocation setup of each list index, due to the complexity involved. If you have problems where the sprites in Lunar Magic look fine, but in the ROM portions of sprites are becoming invisible or "morph" completely into other sprites on the screen, it means you need to change this setting. There's actually only 0x13 possible settings, so just play with it a bit.

What this drop-down list does show however is the memory index range of each selection... and from this it can determine the maximum number of allowed sprites that the ROM will render on the screen at once (this is the M value). The SP value lists 2 sprites that are given "special" treatment... these are usually sprites that take up a larger than normal amount of memory like a Big Boo, Banzai Bill, etc. A value of FF for one of the SP values means the value isn’t used. The M1 and M2 values describe the range and maximum number of allowed sprites per screen for the two "special" SP sprites. These max values are usually separate from the M1 normal sprite max, unless of course the ranges overlap.

For an example of how to read this data, take a look at Level 105, which uses sprite index 04. With the index used in this setup, a maximum of 7 sprites are allowed on the screen at once, in addition to one "special" sprite which can be either sprite 60 (...?) or sprite 9F (Banzai Bill).
Image Image

So using the help file, you're able to read these sprite data headers. For our level we used Banzai Bills, requiring us to choose a sprite data header that could accommodate it since it uses a larger than normal amount of sprite memory. Thankfully, the data header used in Level 105, Yoshi's Island 1, matches our needed perfectly. The only downside to using Banzai bills and their associated data headers is that the maximum number of sprites available at once on screen is limited in comparison to other headers. As you can see in the second image, the M value for header 04 is 7, meaning a 7-sprite maximum. In header 00, the M value is A, meaning you can have 10 sprites. This means that many levels use header 00 since it offers the most flexibility when not using special large sprites.

There are a few more headers that are cut off in the second image. Fishin' Boo has a header just for him, as does the Dolphin Generator. There's even a unique one that allows two Banzai Bills on screen at the same time. Normally it's used for the large green gas bubble but the Banzai Bills are allowed in that header too. Learning to read the sprite header can allow some interesting level design based around the larger sprites SMW offers.
User avatar
Mandew
d'yo
Posts: 515
Joined: 13 years ago
First name: Marc
Pronouns: a person
Location: canada
https://fishingseasontraversal.talkhaus.com/

Re: Make A Good Level Contest (SMW) 3 - Discussion

Post by Mandew »

FirePhoenix wrote:helpful
Just to clarify - sprite slots being full or sprite memory isn't the reason why the grey platform didn't spawn for Rameau's Nephew.

The reason why it didn't spawn is because when Mario dies, everything that is currently occupying a sprite slot is despawned (and the RAM table that keeps track of enemies that shouldn't respawn is cleared so they do respawn). The problem here is that if the camera is in a particular way as Mario respawns, then the platform's "spawning radius" will be already on screen, but the platform won't be there - and the spawn radius needs to be off-screen in order for something to spawn.
Image
video games
User avatar
FPzero
Resident SMW Central Admin
Posts: 624
Joined: 13 years ago

Re: Make A Good Level Contest (SMW) 3 - Discussion

Post by FPzero »

Admittedly I haven't played anyone's levels yet so I didn't know the context of the situation. That makes sense though. I know for a fact that some sprites like Spike Tops won't spawn correctly on occasions like that, or some sprites will be facing the wrong way depending on their location relative to Mario's entrance.

Spike Tops really are the worst though. They don't spawn if the camera is moving from right to left, only if you're moving left to right. I have no clue why but I'm 99% certain I've encountered this behavior in the past when working with them. I'm so glad Mario Maker's Spike Tops are very flexible and work properly.
User avatar
Le Neveu de Rameau
I'm a hoobsie roller; I got robots in my life
Posts: 994
Joined: 7 years ago
First name: Rameau's Nephew
Location: Gettin' gibbly with the business

Re: Make A Good Level Contest (SMW) 3 - Discussion

Post by Le Neveu de Rameau »

morsel/morceau wrote:
Le Neveu de Rameau wrote:...which can leave the player stranded until it decided to come back for arcane reasons...
until the player gets bored and frustrated...[/spoiler]
I am also reluctant to say what I think of many levels, but I stop short of dragging a poor benighted puppet in to speak for me. The first time we encounter this 'player', he is the objective figure one would expect; the second time he seems to have adopted all your opinions and reactions. If you mean that you think these things you must say so: this weak-knee'd namby-pamby continental flip-floppyism is unworthy of a precisian I've seen using ligatures.
A fair point; all monomaniacal pretenses toward objectivity aside, the platonic ideal of "the player" is but a sad rag doll we fashion in our own images. Tastes and tolerances can vary quite considerably, hence this contest having multiple judges so as to at least to some degree account for the range of preferences one might find in the Congregation of Marian Players. At the same time, reviewing a level requires one nevertheless to attempt the impossible task of stepping outside of one's one subjective preferences; and indeed, there are definitely levels here that are decidedly not to my taste, but which I would still qualify as successes due to them accomplishing what they set out to do quite successfully, and in a way which I could see appealing to another player with a different set of preferences. In the second instance of "player" in the quote above, I was indeed attempting to speak for the majority, which is of course an arrogant presumption which requires us to generalize our own experiences, or worse yet baselessly assign crude stereotypes to the masses according to what we think they ought to enjoy, but in the vain search for objectivity, or at the very least some degree of generality, we can do no other, provided we wish to do anything at all. Alternative perspectives are in any event always welcome.
User avatar
TaviTurnip
Reach for the top
Abministrator
Posts: 1077
Joined: 12 years ago
First name: Rena
Location: Winter

Re: Make A Good Level Contest (SMW) 3 - Discussion

Post by TaviTurnip »

Huh, we're doing open critique now? :o I'm... actually interested in this, I think u.u If only as a way to pass the time between now and the LP/results. I really want to ask if anyone had thoughts about my level, except I've already said that I phoned in the last like 75% of it and I don't want to just tell people "yeah I already knew about that mistake/error/bad judgement" if everyone brings stuff up since I already know what all the problems are xD

Oh what the hell. Gimme your best shots, if you want :T I'll oblige some critique requests later in return.
I regularly stream on Twitch! with other members of the talkhaus. Come watch Monday, Tuesday and Friday at 2PM for blind playthroughs and Pokémon and Touhou and stuff. Come hang out with us!
User avatar
Le Neveu de Rameau
I'm a hoobsie roller; I got robots in my life
Posts: 994
Joined: 7 years ago
First name: Rameau's Nephew
Location: Gettin' gibbly with the business

Re: Make A Good Level Contest (SMW) 3 - Discussion

Post by Le Neveu de Rameau »

TaviTurnip wrote:Huh, we're doing open critique now? :o I'm... actually interested in this, I think u.u If only as a way to pass the time between now and the LP/results. I really want to ask if anyone had thoughts about my level, except I've already said that I phoned in the last like 75% of it and I don't want to just tell people "yeah I already knew about that mistake/error/bad judgement" if everyone brings stuff up since I already know what all the problems are xD

Oh what the hell. Gimme your best shots, if you want :T I'll oblige some critique requests later in return.
The visual style is interesting, but might benefit from a touch of refinement. As is, the (walk-through) canopy is the same color as the (solid) ground; while this doesn't cause many serious problems, it is a bit odd (and I did assume the canopy was solid at first). A more desaturated color (as per the walk-through ground and decorative leaves) would make this clear at a glance.

As for the content itself, perhaps I'm a bit dense, but I'm completely at a loss as to how you're intended to bear the level normally. My brilliant solution for the normal exit was to tank a hit on the Munchers near the cliffside and use the invincibility to make a mighty leap to the opposite cliff, but I suspect that's not what's intended. As for the secret exit, I have no idea how to access it at all. There seem to be a number of spots where non-solid branches are located precisely where you'd expect to find solid ones. This lead me to assume there must be some way to solidify them, but I'm completely unable to determine what it might be. Similarly, while I was able to access the message block, it seemed to only be reachable via a very precise sliding jump which both required not-entirely-common knowledge of how to make Mario fly the maximum distance and was unusually merciless compared to the rest of the level if one failed, which again makes me suspect that I was not approaching the obstacle as intended. What's more, the block merely points you to an area that is once more inaccessible to a non-solid branch placed in precisely the most inconvenient position. I thought the block might be hinting at bouncing of a Goombird to reach the door, but this did not appear to work, either. What exactly am I missing here.

(Also, speaking of Goombirds, the one that bursts out of the block next to the not-Dragon Coin room is a bit ambushy. Moving it back one row could help rectify this.)
User avatar
nothobz
of the jungle
Posts: 182
Joined: 6 years ago
First name: george
Location: look out! a tree!

Re: Make A Good Level Contest (SMW) 3 - Discussion

Post by nothobz »

my level was good but i ran out of ideas by screen 8 :oops:
i also made it have a reset door, but very very hard to los. if you played you know what i mean, but in the tests the only way icould lose is if i tired to. if i made it harder it was too specific though so its tough to balance (but its not lik losing is something you really want to happe)
also idol made me have a layer 3 bg whcih cause the victory text to be hidden :x :x


iwould l ove feedback as its my favorite part of hacking (gtting to learn from mistakes and improving) but i dotn blame you if you dont have anything to say. i dont have anything t osay on the levels i played so far)
Post Reply