[mario maker] level design advice?

[GeatMasta]

Hello all,
I've been a fan of raocow since the VIP 2 play through--about 2009 I guess, has it really been that long? So when I realized I didn't know what I was doing when making Mario Maker levels, (the criticism raocow gave of the vanilla contests only goes so far, when it isn't your work), so after searching around for advice online, and mostly finding people complaining, this seemed like the obvious place to ask for help.

So my general problem is that if I think of an awesome portion of the level--say for example a puzzle involving bombs--by the time i've built the level up to that point--with sections demonstrating the sorts of things bombs can blow up without endangering the player, puzzles involving elements of the main puzzle, etc. I often feel like the level has overstayed it's welcome, so I never actually put in what I was building to. Some times the whole thing is like tutorial parts.

But like how do you know if a level has overstayed it's welcome, or, on the other hand, if it is too short? Is there a good rule of thumb, like you should be able to speed run it in 100 seconds or something?

On a related note, are there good rules of thumb for determining if a level is fair? The only one I know is that it needs to be beatable with no powerups.

Then in a problem unique to super mario maker, you can't get a mushroom or feather at the end of a level and have it carry over, so the catharsis after beating a level has to happen in the stage. And I don't know how to create that feeling.

The other problem I've been having is that I have no idea how to place blocks and enemies, usually I just stick them in until it no longer looks barren, but that rarely creates a fun enemy layout, especially underwater. When you're placing items in the layout, what are you really looking for? are there rules like 'well you obviously can't put a mole there because XYZ, that should be a koopa,' or do you just try to get it to *feel* right?

Thanks for any help!

[Mata Hari]

If you've thought of a neat bomb puzzle but spend too much time building up what bombs do then just put in less buildup about what bombs do

[Mata Hari]

Also remember that most pubbies are attention-deficit 8-year-olds who are really really bad at Mario, so if you think your level is a bit short or easy then don't worry about it. Especially since you're the designer so you're already going to find it significantly easier than most people.

[GeatMasta]

If you've thought of a neat bomb puzzle but spend too much time building up what bombs do then just put in less buildup about what bombs do

But isn't that bad level design? It's obvious that bombs blow up brick blocks, it's less obvious that they blow up pipes. When nintendo makes a level they each basically have 4 stages:
1. the level introduces a one or two mechanics in a safe environment.
2. the mechanics are established further, the safety net removed, and you have to use them with proper timing or a puzzle of some kind.
3. the concept is twisted in some way, you have to contend with it and some other mechanic at the same time, or there is a lateral thinking puzzle.
4. you are presented with a hard optional part that will yield the 1-up from the flagpole; often in a way that mirrors the beginning of the level somehow.

In addition to this it will have times in stages two and three where if you do something strange or skillful you get a reward. And there are safe areas between each of these sections, they get progressively shorted through the stage and the stages are each longer than the last.

Following this pattern makes the level FEEL satisfying. It reflects an ideal example of pacing, similar to an engagement curve in a movie. Although it will also not feel satisfying if the whole thing is just too short or too long. No buildup -> no suspense because you didn't use any time to get this far -> the level isn't satisfying.

If I just skip to step 3 as you suggest, it will not feel satisfying. Furthermore, if I don't perform steps 1 and 2 adequately then many of the people who own the game will be unable to complete the level, and as levels are basically found randomly in the 100 mario challenge, that's a big problem.

This is the whole stupid thing: if I could create level sequences instead of standalone levels, this wouldn't be an issue because the mechanics that need taught would be distributed over many levels. But I have to assume the player may not know the exact damage radius of bombs, or what blocks are effected, or that flamethrowers following a path will push cannons in the way (but all other blocks go through them), or that winged magikoopas produce winged enemies, Etc.

Also remember that most pubbies are attention-deficit 8-year-olds who are really really bad at Mario, so if you think your level is a bit short or easy then don't worry about it. Especially since you're the designer so you're already going to find it significantly easier than most people.

As it is it often feels long enough when still in phase 2, then goes straight to phase 4, and just feels unsatisfying.

But obviously there's a trick to doing this right: because chocolate contest levels often have pretty complex gimmicks, but they don't feel super long.

[Mata Hari]

This is the whole stupid thing: if I could create level sequences instead of standalone levels, this wouldn't be an issue because the mechanics that need taught would be distributed over many levels. But I have to assume the player may not know the exact damage radius of bombs, or what blocks are effected, or that flamethrowers following a path will push cannons in the way (but all other blocks go through them), or that winged magikoopas produce winged enemies, Etc.

Does your puzzle actually require all those elements?

[GeatMasta]

This is the whole stupid thing: if I could create level sequences instead of standalone levels, this wouldn't be an issue because the mechanics that need taught would be distributed over many levels. But I have to assume the player may not know the exact damage radius of bombs, or what blocks are effected, or that flamethrowers following a path will push cannons in the way (but all other blocks go through them), or that winged magikoopas produce winged enemies, Etc.

Does your puzzle actually require all those elements?

No, they were just examples of things that take some time to demonstrate.

Mine involved learning: which blocks bombs break and which they don't, that objects come with you through doors (I think in SMW they only came through pipes, but it's been a while), learning the timing of a bomb run, the timing of placing a bomb on a spring so it blows up something you can't throw it up to, and that you can bounce bombs on your head when wearing a helmet.

By the time all those things had been demonstrated it just felt like the level should be over. Furthermore things were made large and complex because if I just have a bomb then if you screw up you can't continue, but if i spawn them with a pipe or cannon they come way too rapidly. So I had to add conveyer belts and so on, so they would be far enough from the spawner that more wouldn't spawn and screw up the player.

If you're wondering if a reset door works in super mario maker, the answer is `eh, kinda': sometimes enemies respawn, sometimes p-switches respawn, and sometimes trampolines reset when they go off screen, but they don't seem to have the same distance limits as koopas. It seems to have trouble spawning things when too many tiles are in one area, but this limit is well below what it lets you put on screen; so I run into problems when I use vines and mushrooms and the like to get a certain look.

[Willhart]

I don't own the game yet, but you could probably try to combine some of the challenges into one large one, and even leave one or two parts unexplained so that the final puzzle has some more challenge to it too. One way to deal with the length is to mark where important things go roughly beforehand with blocks for example, and then building the level using that as a guide.

The "overstaying it's welcome" problem matters more, if the player is very likely to die on some of the later puzzles. It might be a good idea to hold back on the design and take little risks by letting some things go unexplained, especially since this game does not have a midpoint. Replaying puzzles can also be boring if you know how to solve them already. Having the hardest thing to be at the end means that you should really avoid making the earlier level too long to solve.

Keeping the puzzles somewhat dynamic and clear should help to prevent most things from getting too tedious. Also some things can be pretty obvious, like if you are given a power-up spawner, the player will probably understand that they will need it on the level from that alone.