The Talkhaus "Make a Good Level" Contest X - Planning

[PichuVSLink]

Wow, this just sounds like a crazy awesome idea! And being that it's in SMBX rather than SMW, it'll be more accessible for people to join in. I can't wait to get into this contest!

I'm not sure really what judging system should be used, as I'm not very experienced as far as that goes. But for engines, I definitely think that we should go with vanilla SMBX because it is more accessible. At least with personal experience, ASMBXT has not always worked super well for me. Also, if this is just, well, "make a good level" (Obviously) and it's not going to have too much to do with plot, I don't think it's too necessary to use ASMBXT's characters and sounds.

[pholtos]

I wonder if I should be a judge... ~_~

I'd also perhaps be interested in making a level since it's a lot easier to make levels in this engine for me.

[SAJewers]

Question: Will MaGLX use the original SMBX, ASMBXT, or A2MBXT as the base? While A2MBXT as a base would give people LunaDLL functionality, and allow me to help out a bit (I don't have a vanilla SMBX install), it might be a week or two until A2MBXT's base is finalized.

Also, if you need judges, look to Sturgyman or Pholtos. I don't particularly want to judge.

Also, anyone who needs music: I have a backlog of musics that will never use.

[Unaniem]

I really like the idea of using the madlib naming scheme as a theme for this content. It contains the generated randomness that allows players to have to think with restrictions, but is balanced enough with the difficulty levels and, well, it being only an idea for what a level could have for a theme (instead of it being 'hey guy use these three specific poops okay bye') to still work pretty well.

I'd suggest using the A2MBXT engine myself, even if it's just because of the LunaDLL function (no making intro- and midpoint sections of levels ugly by having to use manual block- and player filters~~~). This just became irrelevant.

I feel like having the judging be done by 'people's choice' would cause too much hassle. For the reasons you mentioned, as well as the potential of having some people just barging in voting for their BFF's level without even having played it or any other levels or whatever (or just not having played all levels in general). Not to mention that good level design- and judging knowledge isn't a skill that everybody owns. (See the "Wow, talk about priorities thread", I have no idea if there are people on the Talkhaus who go with the same mindset as the subjects there do, but you never know--).

All in all, 'people's choice' just seems a tad unstable to me.

[ano0maly]

I'm going to address something that we discussed last time.

The box idea is fine if the contest is themed around it with no ambiguity about it. But it's deceptive to impose a tight, randomized box requirement in a generic and freeform contest like MAGL. The box in MAGL2 flopped because it placed an undue burden on participants that just wanted to freely and casually make a quality level.

I like the adjective/noun generator, but I don't agree with the one that says "Pokey". That's too specific. More generic terms like "pleasant stroll" and "azure sky" are left to the interpretation of the participant, which gives more room for people to do as they want.

I agree that we shouldn't base it on any ASMT derivatives. This should have no official ties to a specific collaboration. People can use its resources to decorate the level if they feel like it.

[Diggertron]

Yes to randomised name generator as a parameter.
Yes to that not being the ultra-be-all-and-end-all
Yes to Fun being the main aspect to be judged.

I think yeah, making it SMBX-based will be better, Demoverse(???) games should be separate, but if LunaDLL can be made into a thing for this, I don't see why not. (But don't bend over backwards to make this a thing) Actually Septentrion raised a good point here I can't program and I need all the advantages

Also I think having a small set of internal judges would be better, crowdvoting contests doesn't work IMO, since it doesn't even work with the Elections!!



e:

At the very least, we should have a "Mother Brian is probably going to lose you some points" caveat.

One ban we should consider is banning shortcut-midpointing. No doubt people are going to imitate ASMBXT, and Luna Tower might be a template for how to get in a level many times as long as the other levels. Oversizing has always been an issue for SMBX level makers.

Good points, I agree with these.

[Septentrion Pleiades]

I'll advise against LunaDLL. Someone with a background in programming would have quite an advantage, although that is just one of many factors. I suggested banning bosses before, although I not against it really. The ability to creatively throw a boss together would also be a huge advantage against someone just learning.

These are very subjective reasons though, but something to keep in mind before the rules are solidified. Their are many different skills required for SMBX, and it can be argued that those skills are no different than any other. Ultimately if would be sacrificing diversity in the name of fairness.

At the very least, we should have a "Mother Brian is probably going to lose you some points" caveat.

I volunteered to be a judge for this before, and I have many reviews of all sorts of levels. I planned on raising expectations anyways. Also be warn that if I'm not a judge then I will be...

Participating!
Actually funny story, I came up with the voice acting idea while trying to think of a intro to a What-The-Hell-Is-This type of level to put in this contest. It would have been a Bioshock One parody with Objectivism replace with Transhumanism, and in space. I gave up on the idea with I introduced the voice acting idea, thus losing the shear shock value such a level would have had.

One ban we should consider is banning shortcut-midpointing. No doubt people are going to imitate ASMBXT, and Luna Tower might be a template for how to get in a level many times as long as the other levels. Oversizing has always been an issue for SMBX level makers.

I like the set level name idea, and mostly agree with anomaly assessment of the idea.

[SAJewers]

Yeah, I think vanilla SMBX is probably best.

Also, how is this being packaged up? I assume a ToB-style HUB? If so, it might be a good idea to make it standard that all levels end with the SMB3 Star.

[Septentrion Pleiades]

I'll advise against LunaDLL. Someone with a background in programming would have quite an advantage, although that is just one of many factors. I suggested banning bosses before, although I not against it really. The ability to creatively throw a boss together would also be a huge advantage against someone just learning.

I actually think this is kind of analogous to the use of ASM in the previous MaGLs. If someone has crazy skill with it - I think they should go nuts. Having more skill in the designing of the game and its implementation should totally merit a higher score.

That said, I doubt anyone will be doing this. Or, if they do, they'll still be measured by the same metrics - so how fun it is, how well it blends, etc. will be of tantamount importance. The use of Luna will only give points if it's used well. If it's Luna for the sake of Luna, it could actually hurt your score.

How about we just remove "Wow factor" as one of the judgement criteria?

Well, I was mostly doing devil's advocate for that suggestion.

Stuff about banning.

I'm not really in favour of any bans, but we should at least warn that if you need to use this for your level, it's almost certainly too long and you need to re-evaluate. Levels that are overly long will certainly be penalized for it.

ToB-style HUB

There is a problem of the ToB contests really making good games. Only a few LPers obligated themselves to play through the Tower of Bias series(there are no currently commentated playthrough of ToB5). While we are certain to have more interesting designs, we should avoid the pitfalls were just one bad level(of which there are typically several) can ruins the whole game.

That's the main reason I suggested the shortcut ban. However, I think the best way to avoid the problem of forcing the player to play worthless levels is to make their stars worthless, or not required for completion.

There is still of course the problem of levels that are not the worst but ruined but their absurd length, which make makes not requiring 100% a more attractive option.

I understand not wanting bans, so making the worst levels not required for progress would be the best way to make it so that final "game" better without effecting the contest. I've watch a couple of ToB LPs were both me(the viewer) and the LPer suffer. We should avoid that since this will be remembered by how raocow LPs it.

[Alice]

This sounds like a more balanced idea to me than the last MaGL contest. I think I'll pass on entering myself though even though I'm free this time there's a contest. All I ever seem to be able to accomplish in the SMBX level editor is making it crash for some reason.

[Septentrion Pleiades]

This sounds like a more balanced idea to me than the last MaGL contest. I think I'll pass on entering myself though even though I'm free this time there's a contest. All I ever seem to be able to accomplish in the SMBX level editor is making it crash for some reason.

For the sake of everyone who is going to have this problem in this contest, go to the SMBX Help Thread and describe your problem in detail so someone can help you fix it. You won't be the last person who has trouble getting SMBX to work.

We have to have some sources of help for the newer users. We may have to open a new help thread for people just trying to make SMBX work.

[Alice]

For the sake of everyone who is going to have this problem in this contest, go to the SMBX Help Thread and describe your problem in detail so someone can help you fix it. You won't be the last person who has trouble getting SMBX to work.

We have to have some sources of help for the newer users. We may have to open a new help thread for people just trying to make SMBX work.

I might try to replicate it (last time I messed with it was months ago) but it was simply a matter of switching menus when placing sprites and basically everything in the program stopped doing anything at all and I had to force close it through task manager. I've also had it crash simply resizing the level on multiple occasions. (I've only had it work properly once out of around a dozenish times, the rest resulted in one of those two issues I mentioned so I really haven't even messed with the editor much.)

[Septentrion Pleiades]

I can't find anything about a resizing glitch. Maybe you need to reinstall SMBX. Perhaps you'll have better luck with the dev kit than normal SMBX. I'm not an expert on making SMBX work on other people's computers, which is why I suggested that thread in the collaboration.

[Alice]

I can't find anything about a resizing glitch. Maybe you need to reinstall SMBX. Perhaps you'll have better luck with the dev kit than normal SMBX. I'm not an expert on making SMBX work on other people's computers, which is why I suggested that thread in the collaboration.

Well I'll give that a try then if that's fine for the contest. If it gives me the same issues I had before I'll try that thread you posted.

[raocow]

I just want to go on record saying that there shouldnt be any bans, people will just get voted down if they do dumb shit. Also peeps whould use any 'version' of smbx they want, hell use talking time bros 2 if you feel like it. As long as the content is fun, though the idea of a... 'contest package' is interesting.


If this gets compiled into a Tower of Bias type game of sorts, put the garbage bunch in a secluded, super secret area like 'murder death place zone'. Maybe not 'super secret' but 'explicitely out of the way'. I think that would be funny.

[cheez8]

Alice, I know Frozelar said that resizing the window that shows the level in the level editor can cause problems in one of his tutorial videos, but if you're not doing that then I don't know what's going wrong for you.

Also: Cool, a level contest that I know how to participate in! I really like the Mad Libs idea too, especially since five names avoids the issue of "here's a box with an unfun element, good luck making it fun!" Totally going to try my hand this time around (and not be ultra-lazy like last time)

[Septentrion Pleiades]

This might not come up, but can we have entries with two creators?

Hub

This a phase 2 type of thing, but what type of hub are we having? It could be a bit mazy and platformy even, with shortcuts for those with enough stars. We might want an express way after doing enough of a tier, and a normal path with silly stuff after just achieving a tier.

It might be a bit much but ToB did self inserts and did simple stories, complete with a boss. We might want to go with the plain and to the point approach, although it's your call.

Also just to be sure, who is making the hub? My first thought is that it's you as the main manager.

[Sturg]

This might not come up, but can we have entries with two creators?

I'd think that be fine.

Since this sort of contest is the kind where raocow kind of plays each level up to the top three: Would people be fine with having an episode of all the ranked levels and raocow plays that? Or would people prefer just the results + episode being released to the public?

Also, I'd be fine with being a level judge if necessary.

[Zygl]

Since this sort of contest is the kind where raocow kind of plays each level up to the top three: Would people be fine with having an episode of all the ranked levels and raocow plays that? Or would people prefer just the results + episode being released to the public?

Half the fun of these contests is the suspense that comes from the results being announced one place at a time over the course of an entire month. I'd say release it to the public after raocow posts the video of second place, there's no real reason to wait any longer than that. Plus it allows him to link it in the last video description if he decides to do that for some reason.

[Ignoritus]

If your offer still stands, I'd be happy to help with judging.