AZCT: A Zelda Classic Thing - Basic Planning Thread

[AlexanderXCIII]

I've been testing my dungeon with Slash but not sword beams, although I'm beginning to question this decision... Personally, I liked how Link to the Past handled sword beams - the default sword didn't have them, but all the others did at half-damage.

[Doctor Shemp]

It might be a bit early to be thinking about the Overworld but I just wanted to say a few things about it. I was reading Malstrom's blog the other day and saw an article about Zelda, which argued that a big part of the magic of the original games that has been lost in the newer ones is a big overworld that is fun to explore but also dangerous to explore. I agree with him and think we should keep a few things in mind for the overworld:
1. It shouldn't just be a scenic stroll from dungeon to dungeon. This means it shouldn't railroad you down an obvious path by what items you already have: it should be largely explorable from the beginning. If you want to discourage a player from going near a hard dungeon from the start you can do it by putting hard enemies in their path.
2. If the dungeons aren't going to be hidden (Zelda 1-style) they should be big, impressive & obvious on the Overworld (Zelda 2- & LttP-style). They shouldn't be both in plain sight & just a hole in the wall (new Zelda-style).
3. The dungeons shouldn't be the be all and end all of the game: the Overworld should have interesting things in it as well. Why not take a leaf out of Fallout's book and have small or medium rewards throughout the Overworld. They could be well hidden secrets or more open but guarded by strong enemies. I noticed while looking through the ZC wiki that there are several ridiculously strong enemies in the game, such as the Magic Octorok. Wouldn't it make the Overworld seem more like a place of interest and danger if it had, for example, an Octorok-infested river flowing through it? A normal player would cross the river back and forth getting to places and it would serve as a useful landmark. A curious player, however, would wonder if there's a source for the river. Following it would lead to harder and harder Octoroks culminating in the Magic Octorok who would leave a big optional reward: maybe a heart container or even more. Things like this would make the Overworld seem much more alive and help follow Point 1.

[Nimono]

It might be a bit early to be thinking about the Overworld but I just wanted to say a few things about it. I was reading Malstrom's blog the other day and saw an article about Zelda, which argued that a big part of the magic of the original games that has been lost in the newer ones is a big overworld that is fun to explore but also dangerous to explore. I agree with him and think we should keep a few things in mind for the overworld:
1. It shouldn't just be a scenic stroll from dungeon to dungeon. This means it shouldn't railroad you down an obvious path by what items you already have: it should be largely explorable from the beginning. If you want to discourage a player from going near a hard dungeon from the start you can do it by putting hard enemies in their path.
2. If the dungeons aren't going to be hidden (Zelda 1-style) they should be big, impressive & obvious on the Overworld (Zelda 2- & LttP-style). They shouldn't be both in plain sight & just a hole in the wall (new Zelda-style).
3. The dungeons shouldn't be the be all and end all of the game: the Overworld should have interesting things in it as well. Why not take a leaf out of Fallout's book and have small or medium rewards throughout the Overworld. They could be well hidden secrets or more open but guarded by strong enemies. I noticed while looking through the ZC wiki that there are several ridiculously strong enemies in the game, such as the Magic Octorok. Wouldn't it make the Overworld seem more like a place of interest and danger if it had, for example, an Octorok-infested river flowing through it? A normal player would cross the river back and forth getting to places and it would serve as a useful landmark. A curious player, however, would wonder if there's a source for the river. Following it would lead to harder and harder Octoroks culminating in the Magic Octorok who would leave a big optional reward: maybe a heart container or even more. Things like this would make the Overworld seem much more alive and help follow Point 1.

I like that last idea. There's also this "autoghost" script out there that's basically used to make custom enemies; perhaps it could be made use of in this quest? For example, instead of just a Magic Octorok at the end, it could be a King Octo boss. But would having bosses on the overworld be a good thing?

[Cloaytonem2]

I vote in favor of it. Just have it kind of out of the way.

[Doctor Shemp]

I know it's very bad form to come out in favour of one's own idea but OPTIONAL overworld bosses can and do work. For example, Fallout: New Vegas has several legendary creatures that are completely optional, hard to find, and in most cases stronger than the compulsory bosses. They do give a huge amount of XP for killing them though. Since there's no XP in this game we'd have to give more concrete rewards. This video shows the legendary creatures in roughly ascending difficulty order. Since they're surrounded by lesser versions of themselves you can see the difficulty difference.

[Nimono]

I know it's very bad form to come out in favour of one's own idea but OPTIONAL overworld bosses can and do work. For example, Fallout: New Vegas has several legendary creatures that are completely optional, hard to find, and in most cases stronger than the compulsory bosses. They do give a huge amount of XP for killing them though. Since there's no XP in this game we'd have to give more concrete rewards. This video shows the legendary creatures in roughly ascending difficulty order. Since they're surrounded by lesser versions of themselves you can see the difficulty difference.

That would be great, if we had some optional bosses hiding items like heart containers and secret weapons. Just an idea, though.

So uh, again, I ask: what do I need to do if I want to work on a dungeon or something for this?

[Tsurugi]

So, I just got a better idea for the flipper dungeon than the idea I had before, and I just wanted to double-check, whereabouts do we lie on the "silly vs. serious" scale, or is it more of a "do your own kinda thing" thing?

[cheez8]

So uh, again, I ask: what do I need to do if I want to work on a dungeon or something for this?

If you want to work on a dungeon, you just need to say which item you want the dungeon to focus on. Right now, most of the items are claimed, but a few are left:

Mandatory items:
-Whistle
-Whatever we replace the ladder with
Non-mandatory items:
-Whatever we replace bombs with (it's a repeat anyway)
-Quiver Upgrades

Just say which one you want to build a dungeon for, and you've got a dungeon! If want to help some other way though, just say what you want to do, and you'll probably get to help that way too.

[Nimono]

If you want to work on a dungeon, you just need to say which item you want the dungeon to focus on. Right now, most of the items are claimed, but a few are left:

Mandatory items:
-Whistle
-Whatever we replace the ladder with
Non-mandatory items:
-Whatever we replace bombs with (it's a repeat anyway)
-Quiver Upgrades

Just say which one you want to build a dungeon for, and you've got a dungeon! If want to help some other way though, just say what you want to do, and you'll probably get to help that way too.

Ah, thanks so much! Whistle sounds neat, I could probably make a dungeon that makes liberal use of it to make puzzle elements appear. I think I'd like to try my hand at that, if no one minds!

Also, we're using 2.5, right? 'Cause as I said before, I've got experience with making scripts (though nowhere near an expert), so I could greatly help out with that, making scripts as needed for anyone and helping others fix their scripts. It's the most interesting part of ZC to me.

(Also we could even use it to make custom items if anyone wanted, though from the sound of things, that may not be an option anymore... )

EDIT: By the way, what tileset are we using as a base, if any?

[AlexanderXCIII]

EDIT: By the way, what tileset are we using as a base, if any?

Classic, if I'm not mistaken.

Also, bosses. Will anyone be willing to script custom bosses for the main dungeons (that is, for those of us who are too lazy to learn unable to script)?

[Nimono]

Classic, if I'm not mistaken.

Also, bosses. Will anyone be willing to script custom bosses for the main dungeons (that is, for those of us who are too lazy to learn unable to script)?

-Thanks! I'll get started ASAP, then.
-I've never scripted a boss before, but I wouldn't mind giving it a try. Couldn't be much harder than danmakufu or more-confusing SMW ASM! Just give me some ideas (and the graphics ;P) and I'll give it a go.

EDIT: Also speaking of the Whistle, would it be a good idea to have every dungeon enable the dmap flags for enabling the whirlwinds and having them return you to the start of the dungeon? Would be great for those long dungeons when you may need to leave to restock on supplies to not die.

[AlexanderXCIII]

Classic, if I'm not mistaken.

Also, bosses. Will anyone be willing to script custom bosses for the main dungeons (that is, for those of us who are too lazy to learn unable to script)?

-Thanks! I'll get started ASAP, then.
-I've never scripted a boss before, but I wouldn't mind giving it a try. Couldn't be much harder than danmakufu or more-confusing SMW ASM! Just give me some ideas (and the graphics ;P) and I'll give it a go.

EDIT: Also speaking of the Whistle, would it be a good idea to have every dungeon enable the dmap flags for enabling the whirlwinds and having them return you to the start of the dungeon? Would be great for those long dungeons when you may need to leave to restock on supplies to not die.

Whistle whirlwinds returning to start sounds like a good idea to me. I've found by accident at least one spot where they'd be required to get out in my dungeon (which I've since ironed out), so I'm in favor of enabling that.

[TheVulpineHero1]

Hey. Some RL commitments have come up and seem like they'll be ongoing for a while, so I think it'd probably be better for someone else to take my dungeon-making spot if possible. I'm still okay to help out from a playtesting standpoint, and I have every intention of volunteering to proofread all of the game's plot/npc text when that becomes relevant, but I don't want to get into a situation where the project slows down because it's waiting for me to finish a dungeon, or where I feel rushed and don't make good level design. Besides, there's been a bunch of new interest generated by raocow's recent uploads, so that frees up a dungeon slot for one of the new folks if necessary.

Sorry about that, guys. I know it causes organisational hassle, but I guess it's better to happen in the beginning than near the end. I still want to help out this project in any way I can, though.

[darkychao]

Is there some script to make link always swing counter-clockwise that we could use, i.e. when he's facing right swing in the bottom right as it is default there is no way of hitting the in that area.

3040339.gif

It's not really that major, just something that bothered me.

[Nimono]

Is there some script to make link always swing counter-clockwise that we could use, i.e. when he's facing right swing in the bottom right as it is default there is no way of hitting the in that area.

3040339.gif

It's not really that major, just something that bothered me.

It's a quest rule. Quest > Rules > Items > Flip Right-Facing Slash. That will make Link hit that bottom area. You do need to edit Link's animations, though, so it'll look right when slashing that way.

[Doctor Shemp]

I have every intention of volunteering to proofread all of the game's plot/npc text when that becomes relevant

On this subject, since we're using NES Zelda graphics and an NES Zelda-like engine, why not use NES Zelda-like text?

For example, why say
"There are rumours of a secret cave to the north."
when you could say
"NORTH CAVE IS THE SECRET"
and
"Pols Voices are strong but vulnerable to your arrows."
could be
"ARROWS FOR STRONG POLS VOICE"

[darkychao]

we should determine for sure who our main character is going to be.

[raekuul]

I thought we already agreed on Sheath

[Nimono]

Are we wanting all the dungeons to have different themes, or is it okay if two dungeons have the same theme? I was going to make Level 3 be desert-themed, but it sounds like Level 1's also going to be desert-themed, so I don't know if I should change the theme or not.

[Aposke]

I think a different theme for each dungeon would be the best, since it's kinda a gimmick of the Zelda games and it's a really nice experience for the player.
That said, I'm sure two people can build their dungeon around the same theme and still come up with many different ideas. Ideally, you and Raekuul could exchange ideas and stuff so none of you will have a place that looks exactly the same as the other one's.

[lukaramu]

To complement Aposke's post, I would request not to stick to the typical Zelda dungeon themes (forest, fire, desert, water, thunder, sky, you name it.

[Validon98]

To complement Aposke's post, I would request not to stick to the typical Zelda dungeon themes (forest, fire, desert, water, thunder, sky, you name it.

I think we should still stick to them somewhat. Although, a Zebra Space themed level would be interesting, like as a bonus dungeon (such as the kind that was mentioned earlier).

[raekuul]

Mine being desert-themed was entirely because I picked Cset 1. *shrug*

As far as repeted themes... generally that doesn't happen in Zelda games, however (citing Link to the Past as an example) there is precedent of having dungeons with similar overworld themes - the 2nd and 6th Dark World Dungeons were both in marshy overworld areas.

[cheez8]

Umm, could I bring something up for a bit? We still haven't decided on what to replace the ladder with, or what (if anything) we're replacing the Bombs with. The three options I've seen suggested are the Hammer, the Hookshot, and the Wand.

As much as I think the Hookshot is neat, I'm not sure how much use it would get outside of its own dungeon. The Wand I can definitely see being useful, maybe to the point that we would use it as the non-critical replacement since it feels fitting as a reward for something tough. The Hammer... I don't really have any qualms about it being either the critical or non-critical item replacement, so either that or the Hookshot would by my vote for the critical replacement item.

[Nimono]

Umm, could I bring something up for a bit? We still haven't decided on what to replace the ladder with, or what (if anything) we're replacing the Bombs with. The three options I've seen suggested are the Hammer, the Hookshot, and the Wand.

As much as I think the Hookshot is neat, I'm not sure how much use it would get outside of its own dungeon. The Wand I can definitely see being useful, maybe to the point that we would use it as the non-critical replacement since it feels fitting as a reward for something tough. The Hammer... I don't really have any qualms about it being either the critical or non-critical item replacement, so either that or the Hookshot would by my vote for the critical replacement item.

Well, let's look at what they can do:

Hookshot:
-Cross gaps
-Stun enemies/grabs items

This would probably only really get used in its own dungeon and on the overworld since it's primarily a mobility item, and the boomerang probably does the stunning better.

Wand:
-Extra projectile attack
-Can be used to combat Mirror Wizzrobes if used, before getting Mirror Shield and without waiting for them to shoot their own magic to be reflected into themselves
-Reflected and split by magic mirrors and prisms

Would probably be best for a non-critical item, though.

Hammer:
-Good power
-Pounds stakes in
-Breaks Darknut shields if that rule is enabled, allowing you to them from any direction.

This would probably be good as a critical item, although I don't think there's many main dungeons left. Still, the ability to smash the shields on darknuts could be VERY useful, especially the higher tiers of them that really want to make sure you have to face them at all times to be able to attack them