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[Daizo]

I’m sick of this fandom that actively downplays or encourages people treating bad mario fan content as egregious crimes while dragging in unsuspecting devs who may have never heard of raocow or the talkhaus/spotzone by getting rao to play games from adjacent communities.

I think this holds the most truth for me personally. You have no idea how much it still stings whenever I read through how well recieved The Black Hole got, which basically had a lasting scaring effect that only really faded away in 2020. I can talk for Skewer as well for when he had his level played during CLDC. Say all you will about "just make a better level", you can't outright claim that you know us and try to claim that we haven't done proper testing or how basic ideas are solved by just "removing it" because it just wasn't implemented properly. Not to mention the mockery and the history reminders just makes people look like a total jerk, like "lol it's the guy who made -insert thing-". How would you feel if I kept bringing up your biggest regret every time you make another mistake? At that point, this nearly crosses the line.

"Grow thicker skin" only applies when you know the person you're indirectly hurting because of this. One person can only take heat for so long before they break. Not cool, talkhaus. We're just modifying a game, not running the mafia.

[Zinfandel]

YUMP 2

For reference, everything in this post is entirely my fault. I'm sorry.

[Validon98]

So as of late I have in fact been making a bit of a ruckus of my own regarding the spoilered text in rixi's post, which uh, I will not continue that train of thought here since it'll be more for down the line, but I want to own up to that and explain myself there. I know it's only one piece of a larger puzzle regarding issues with the community I'm honestly more in the dark about since I don't interact with all of it, but YUMP 2-wise specifically, I have been saying a lot of anger-filled comments regarding things and venting general frustrations. Now, I'm not gonna let that stop me from enjoying the other things they've made, and I don't want to take a verbal bat to literally every member who might have made something that annoyed me because even if I had actual constructive criticism, it'd get lost in the anger and hey, the hack was made the way it was for a reason. That doesn't stop me from hating the fact

a very sadistic marathon of a level was made intentionally to piss people off,

but since I'm not really the intended audience, obviously my words on that mean jack all. So on that front, I'm sorry for any anger on my front, and if it led to any additional amount of frustration on that topic, I'll take that blame.

[Daizo]

obviously my words on that mean jack all.

yeah, because

there's a midpoint in every section.

Unless you mean the fact that

the length is tedious, baring midpoints

which I kind of understand that point of view.

but yeah, it's nice that you apologized.

[Validon98]

obviously my words on that mean jack all.

yeah, because

there's a midpoint in every section.

Unless you mean the fact that

the length is tedious, baring midpoints

which I kind of understand that point of view.

but yeah, it's nice that you apologized.

It's the latter and some other reasons I'd rather save for the LP when I have better hindsight to discuss them rationally, but I get what you mean with the former, there's no complaint from me on that.

[idol]

this hack isn't meant to piss "you" off. there is no "you". there's a reason why so much of this hack is so hard: it was about "us".

jumphalf had both a high bar of quality and authors contributed towards the image of the hack. making levels for jumphalf stressed everyone out, levels were revamped or edited multiple times, and quite a few levels or ideas were cut for not being up to par.

and it took years of hard work, still. it's grueling.

yump 2 was much less stressful. know why? because unlike jumphalf, we didn't care about reception. this wasn't about meeting or surpassing expectations. we didn't go in making youtube levels like yump 1, this hack isn't the antithesis of anything. there's no message here. the authors of yump 2 had much more free reign to make things. we didn't have to worry about an audience, we figured if people wanted to play they could adapt. hacks do not need to be made for "you".

the level you are talking about was made because i thought it'd be funny. it was fun to work on. that's it.

and that's all of it, really. im proud of yump 2. i don't think id ever want to be involved with another jump hack. but id be happy to be involved in future yump or mice hacks. it's just fun to be allowed to be sillier with aesthetics or level ideas and not have to worry about always trying your hardest to impress.

[thatguyif]

On the whole, I see way more conflating criticism to harassment, and not the other way around.

Yeah. More often than not, legitimate criticism does get thrown under the bus because people can only see the harassment. This is not to dismiss the harassment, but we can't suddenly just shut down discussion every single time an asshole or three ruins it, which is what tends to be the wishes for a lot of people when this happens.

There's also another factor here: raocow and talkhaus can't do anything about the YouTube commenters, and we all know that. They can be as toxic as all get out and we wouldn't be able to do squat about it. You saw it in the Half-Life 2 LP with Viktor Pedrova, and there have been others as well. There's not as much overlap between them and the rest of the Talkhaus community, so there's not like there's much that can be done.

Still, I think a bigger problem is there are other methods of handling this. Talk to the mods here, PM/DM raocow, do things that do not require you for some reason to speak about this in a broad public forum. I don't see evidence of this in these posts. Instead, this just seems like call-out catharsis. That's the type of thing that creates drama rather than resolving the pressing issue.

[SAJewers]

yump 2 was much less stressful. know why? because unlike jumphalf, we didn't care about reception. this wasn't about meeting or surpassing expectations. we didn't go in making youtube levels like yump 1, this hack isn't the antithesis of anything. there's no message here. the authors of yump 2 had much more free reign to make things. we didn't have to worry about an audience, we figured if people wanted to play they could adapt. hacks do not need to be made for "you".

That honestly to me sounds a lot like asmbxt.

[Validon98]

this hack isn't meant to piss "you" off. there is no "you". there's a reason why so much of this hack is so hard: it was about "us".

And that's exactly why I've said that anything I've said, whether in anger or criticism or nothing, is completely invalid and means nothing, it's all empty words that don't actually matter compared to the actual intent put into the hack, and that's what my apology was about, because you're right. It's why I gave up playing the hack, as much as I wanted to see what it was about, because I got too caught up on "wanting to play it legitimately" and angering myself over things I could adapt to that I failed to and then vented too much about it. I'm a fucking idiot for saying anything and making a mess of things, it's fine to be mad at me for saying and thinking stupid shit like this.

Sorry for everything, just, in general. I should've said nothing.

[SirChasm]

So YUMP 2 was made for an audience of the level makers, but was still distributed openly to the public. But from what I can tell, nothing was explicitly stated on the page advertising the hack or anything similar to suggest this; they'd just see it as "a hack by the team that made X, Y, and Z." As a result, those who wouldn't know this would just get frustrated because hey, here's a level with a mechanic that is difficult to grasp or whatever, and their initial thought would be that the level was designed with malice in mind rather than just seeing how much they could push their creativity. If there was something that made this point clear, feel free to disregard this sentiment, but... I dunno. To me, it almost seems like it would have been better off just staying in the inner circle, with the playable showcase being kept for a different hack intended for a broader audience.

[FPzero]

All media does not have to appeal to all people

[gbreeze]

So YUMP 2 was made for an audience of the level makers, but was still distributed openly to the public. But from what I can tell, nothing was explicitly stated on the page advertising the hack or anything similar to suggest this; they'd just see it as "a hack by the team that made X, Y, and Z." As a result, those who wouldn't know this would just get frustrated because hey, here's a level with a mechanic that is difficult to grasp or whatever, and their initial thought would be that the level was designed with malice in mind rather than just seeing how much they could push their creativity. If there was something that made this point clear, feel free to disregard this sentiment, but... I dunno. To me, it almost seems like it would have been better off just staying in the inner circle, with the playable showcase being kept for a different hack intended for a broader audience.

SMWCentral currently has a "category" system for difficulty rankings and for non-kaizo and kaizo. YUMP2 is a kaizo hack and is marked as such; thus, visitors to SMWC know that the hack is not intended for everyone, but for those with an interest in Kaizo.

SMWC is not designed to be a showcase of all the most popular and accessible hacks that everyone will enjoy. It's simply a curated database, it functions as a host of numerous hacks of all types and styles, from the most popular to the most niche and absurd of hacks. This includes more than just hacks and includes resources such as music, graphics, or asm as well. Perhaps there can be a site someday that functions as an extremely curated site for reasonable and accessible hacks, but right now SMWC is curated only to the point that the hacks are functional and void of any issues or glitches (among a few other reasonable standards).

The category system is developed to help curate the hack selection for visitors, and I feel like this is something that the talkhaus often doesn't realize. To you guys, hacks are just hacks. But on SMWC, hacks are categorized very specifically and it's widely understood there that hacks placed in certain categories will appeal to certain niche audiences.

On the C3 page itself, there are these things called "tags" which are tagged onto various threads. The YUMP2 thread has the kaizo tag, so there is a form of categorization here, even when the hack hasn't been officially "released" yet. These categories can be helpful in "protecting" the player from playing something that doesn't interest them. I think that the nature of raocow playing these hacks doesn't allow the talkhaus to see this side of SMWC; you all only see the hack and that's it, but there's a lot more that goes on beyond on the site. When a hack is released, it's pretty widely understood that this may not appeal to the most broad radiance possible.

In fact, and this goes beyond SMW's inner workings, but to suggest that all hacks that are released be intended for the most broad audience shows a great misunderstanding of what the SMW hacking community even is. If you have a problem with the entire SMW hacking community, I suppose that's a different issue than just YUMP2.

[Daizo]

I think the general look of YUMP2 and the fact it's a Kaizo:Light would've already spoke about the fact that the hack was made as a creative outlet. I mean that's what "yump" is. I don't think it needed to be stated.

[Koopster]

I completely fail to understand why the fact some people may not like/do not like yump 2 is being painted as a problem

[Leet]

I agree we don't need to spend 3 more pages figuring out what the concept of an opinion is for the 20th time

[Validon98]

I guess the way I'm reading it is that having an opinion, positive or negative, is invalid in this case and so expressing a like or dislike of the thing meant for a certain niche is wrong and selfish entitlement, and people like me are fools for expressing that.

[Leet]

I would respond to that but I gotta be honest this all seems to be a continuation of something that happened somewhere else on a completely different website, why is it in this thread? All due respect to everyone but I can't really follow what this is about.

[SirChasm]

I guess my being perplexed comes more from the page that I've seen floating around with the download for the .bps. It says "welcome", it shows a lot of brief .gifs showcasing intriguing stages and mechanics, it offers a screenshot presumably offering the number of total exits. But unless I am once again missing something, there's nothing explicit about the inherent difficulty of the game. If the game's meant to be difficult, great, but this to me isn't advertising it as anything like that. It looks, for all intents and purposes, like an invitation for anyone interested in the community to try it out, despite it presumably being a game for an incredibly niche audience. If that's the joke and it just went over my head, shame on me; otherwise, it is still my belief that the methods and intentions clash to a point that could make players feel like they were the butt of a prank.

[Daizo]

there's nothing explicit about the inherent difficulty of the game.

[ano0maly]

Some things I want to say after reading through Rixithechao's post and on:

1. I managed to stay out of VLDCX thread in its entirety, but I did lurk in the thread and checked a few videos, and I saw from the thread (as well as some talkhaus Discord discussion) about how people were belittling Lazy_ due to that infamous YUMP level. And I agree that it was disappointing to see.

It's already quite a questionable thing to do to preemptively create bad omens about a level based on its creator and their reputation, say how the creator of USS Suboptimal was treated. But with Lazy it's also just factually wrong.

Yes, Lazy made that terrible YUMP level. Guess what? Lazy also made the winner of MAGL3. I'm genuinely wondering if people collectively forgot the second part and only remember the first. I don't know why Lazy needed to be told things like "remember that this person also made that muncher maze level in YUMP" (I'm paraphrasing) on a level that got third on VLDCX, just because raocow may have had some personal tough times with it. And then again with the YUMP sequel, with stuff like (again, paraphasing) "ooh boy I'm afraid of what Lazy will do again".

2. I will concede that idol's point, "YUMP isn't made for you, it's made for ourselves", may well be valid. It's a philosophical discussion on "are you allowed to knowingly make a bad game and what if the creator doesn't mind the reception", which I will skip at this time.

But my concern is (and I feel that Rixithechao, SirChasm and others may agree with me on this) that even if you may be correct about this for the hack, that doesn't necessarily translate to the playthrough. When raocow plays the game, the assumption is that it's on equal footing as any other game, an assumption that may need to be openly corrected if the design rationale and the intended audience are clearly different. If the game is "bad" people will call it out because it's bad. To them, they and the player got handed a poor quality game.

I guess I want to say that if YUMP 2 is indeed just some romhackers fooling around with whatever they brainstorm, why is raocow playing it? And before you go "he can play what he wants", yes, but then I think it would be wise for him to properly convey the context of what he's actually playing. That he's tampering with the type of game he usually doesn't play (he explicitly said in the past that he won't play kaizo hacks w/o tools, so keep that in mind if such content ever comes up), that this isn't trying to meet JUMP standards or even be an ordinary reasonable hack. And that you shouldn't judge the creators here for the worse stuff they make in this other context, in their casual spare time.

3. This part is directed towards Rixithechao.

I know you said in advance that "people will talk me down" or that you yourself will back down, but it doesn't mean that their points aren't valid. You're letting yourself get overworked about this.

I've seen cases where it seems like you enter a LP discussion solely to rebuke how people treat level or game creators, for series that you might not even be watching (or, you might be watching silently after all - I cannot say for sure). You don't have to go on a crusade to fix this community and its worse tendencies. As you said, fandoms in general can and likely will have their bad (and good) sides - talkhaus isn't a unique specimen and you don't have to treat it as such. The community isn't forcing you to be so invested in it. Allow yourself to take some work and burden off your shoulders.

People in the past have told me "pick your battles", and I suppose they're right. You don't have to go after every let's play with the conviction that you will resolve the tensions or clean up the more toxic moments. Sometimes if a given thread or a given situation is just unappealing and uncomfortable, you can simply avoid that place and spend time elsewhere.

And thatguyif makes a good point - Youtube comments are not the forums. The former is more unrestrained by design. They're generally not for the faint of heart, not just for raocow's videos of fanmade levels, but in other various Youtube videos too. If you find that side to be more toxic, don't go there. Tell those level creators that you're concerned about to not go there if they can't handle it, for their own sake. Tell other people that don't like drama to stay away.

[SirChasm]

...oh, there it is! It's just above the actual text of the forum posts. Well, I certainly look a fool.

No, on second thought, forget my saying I'm the dummy. The fact that you would go out of your way to not quote the fact that I'm missing something, but rather my misunderstanding of the page, insinuates that you either believe I am in the wrong for not noticing a relatively small piece of text on a page where the eye will almost undoubtedly be drawn towards the myriad moving images, or that I was actively trying to libel the project when my main query was not about its content but its advertising. I understand your frustrations, but using them to disparage me for making a mistake doesn't equate to a net positive.

[Kilgamayan]

If people are being unnecessarily heated and making inappropriately personal posts elsewhere on this forum, I would encourage folks report those posts so we can take a look at them. I can't speak for anyone else on the mod team but I will readily admit I don't patrol every square inch of this website, so it's quite possible things went down somewhere and I didn't see them. (Perhaps posts were reported and they got resolved before I saw the reports! Who knows?)

Beyond that, well, the only thing I can offer is the general life advice of not forgetting to love each other (or at least peacefully co-exist), whether it be here or elsewhere. As empty a platitude as that is.

(For what it's worth, nothing in this thread regarding this apparent issue is action-worthy to me)

[Leet]

the assumption is that it's on equal footing as any other game, an assumption that may need to be openly corrected

It is on equal footing with every other game - because every single work is supposed to be what it is, rather than a vain attempt to strive towards an impossible perfection. this is how all works should be understood. but gamers are so hung up on "good" and "bad" that's the mindset they've internalized

[ano0maly]

the assumption is that it's on equal footing as any other game, an assumption that may need to be openly corrected

It is on equal footing with every other game - because every single work is supposed to be what it is, rather than a vain attempt to strive towards an impossible perfection. this is how all works should be understood. but gamers are so hung up on "good" and "bad" that's the mindset they've internalized

I don't want this to devolve into another discussion about the subjectivity of good or bad.

I'm talking about the explicit labelling system on SMWC tagging YUMP hacks as kaizo and the creators' self-admission that this hack isn't intended to be reasonable or accessible like your average game.

YUMP2 isn't JUMPhalf. This game is not meant to be on equal footing with a quality-controlled hack like that. raocow needs to make that clear to his Youtube audience.

[Awoo]

Someone tl;dr this shit. Gods damn it is this really the place or time to discuss what raocow chooses to play on his channel or his forum? It seems really out of place. I get hype for things that are coming up in this thread, maybe it's just being silly but this seems really off topic.

-_-