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Iconoclasts - I can't believe it. Humans are so flaky. I knew I should have asked the tengu about this instead.

this is the place where lps are being talked about. it's important to talk about games being played on the internet.
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Grounder
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Re: Iconoclasts - I really am neck-deep in this whole contest after all, huh.

Postby Grounder » 1 month ago



the icon clasts back
Why don't you eat me?

I am perfectly tasty...

AND I'LL STEAL YOUR SOUL! :twisted:

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Re: Iconoclasts - Are you saying there's some connection between strength and popularity?

Postby Ignoritus » 1 month ago

thatguyif wrote: Like...consider today's video. When it came to explaining what Royal did to earn Mother's wrath, it's actually vague. "You sinned!" "You were arrogant!" "You have doomed us all!" They only once mention something that seemed relevant (summoning the Starworm), and even then it's not explained how he did that or what the consequence of that is other than the end of the world.
For the record, if anyone's still unclear on what he did:

He helped you destroy the Omega Wheel, which was what signaled the Starworm.



Spoilering that since I know people are sensitive about it, but it is never outright stated anymore clearly than it already has been. And in my opinion it was pretty explicit already.

"you destroyed something that was locked away for a reason"




Anyways, as to "what's up with the cat" that's also never explained but I have a personal headcanon based on the little bit we know (Once again not really a spoiler of anything but one super minor detail):

The cat's name is revealed to be Oedipuss, and the music for the Mother fight on the OST is named "Vs. Oedipuss". So it's presumably Mother's cat and the boss was either modeled in his image or he was *actually controlling it* for her.

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Re: Iconoclasts - Are you saying there's some connection between strength and popularity?

Postby Kilgamayan » 1 month ago

thatguyif wrote: snip
To answer your question as best I can*, I would say that, given the gameplay experiences in the videos, anything that would alter future gameplay experience in a non-trivial manner constitutes a spoiler and should be marked as such. (Exceptions can be made for core game mechanic info dumps that do not provide meaningful information on how to solve specific puzzles and for accidental skips of explicit story-dumps.) This can range from outright story discussion, to item-collection puzzles - I am still exceedingly not thrilled with whoever was dumping info about that one high-on-a-ledge key in the Wasteland - to "calling out foreshadowing" like what happened earlier in the thread, to random odds and ends like raocow apparently not yet noticing that

two important One Concern characters share names with the Ascent and the Shockwood

. I hold that the purity of the playthrough must be maintained as much as possible, and as a direct result of that, anything that would violate said purity in any fashion should be spoiler-marked.

I am not particularly concerned about thread activity levels - this LP is a bad comparison to an SMW-based LP for a number of reasons, and the overwhelming majority of people in this thread seem to have had no issue using the spoiler tags as needed. If there are actually people that are not participating in this thread because they are so anti-"censorship" or whatever that they would rather not post at all than post using the spoiler tag, then honestly I am glad to not be associating with such people. I doubt anyone like that exists in a corner of the internet like this one, though.

*I have a nagging feeling you're only asking because you want me to provide a specific benchmark for what constitutes a spoiler that you can then attempt to debate. I'm open to the possibility that I am wrong and paranoid about this, however.
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Re: Iconoclasts - I really am neck-deep in this whole contest after all, huh.

Postby Blivsey » 1 month ago

RIP Chrome. People always think they won't fall victim to hubris, but thinking that generally means they already have.

Also, if I remember correctly, Elro still has a chance to change rao's mind on how reasonable he is right now.

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Re: Iconoclasts - Stop fighting and preaching and getting people riled up just to get what you want.

Postby Cyril » 1 month ago

Polro (Pre-Game) (???)
Agent Grey (Pre-Game) (Juice)
Mrs. Anders (Pre-Game) (Penance)
Henetta (Penance)
Ella (Penance)
Agent White (Seeds)
Gerrie (Fell to his death)
The Silver Watchman (Drowned)
Mother (Seeds)
Father (Shot?)
Chrome (Juice)

i don't know if the gold-haired dude on the desk has a name, or how he died, so i'm ignoring him
i've honestly never played a video game in my life

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Re: Iconoclasts - I really am neck-deep in this whole contest after all, huh.

Postby Grounder » 1 month ago

Yeah, can't agree with Elro here either.

He has someone who has nothing left to lose willing to go in his place, for fuck's sake, and he won't let her. Not even "Fine, you find some fourth rando, too, I'm speaking over for my sister".

You can never win with Elro, I feel like.
Why don't you eat me?

I am perfectly tasty...

AND I'LL STEAL YOUR SOUL! :twisted:

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Re: Iconoclasts - If that's the best your religion can do, you should probably just give up.

Postby Kilgamayan » 1 month ago

Been saving this title for that Chrome scene for a while now. <3 I do like how his dying words are crying out for help and to be saved after he spent all that time going on about leaders needing to be removed. Too bad, pal!

I was very glad to hear that you had no idea that segment was coming and have no clue as to where things will go from here. That means the game's doing its job wonderfully. I'm already excited for more videos!
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Re: Iconoclasts - If that's the best your religion can do, you should probably just give up.

Postby The Doctor » 1 month ago

Yes, Elro has someone who can take his place in the mission, but that's not the point. All he cares about right now is protecting Robin. His father (recently?) died, his wife and daughter were killed, and he lost an eye and an arm. The only thing he has left in his life is his sister. He doesn't want her to go on some suicide mission to save the world. He doesn't care about the world any more. He doesn't even care about himself. He's definitely in the wrong, but his actions are totally understandable.

So Elro's totally going to sabotage the rocket launch, right? That's clearly why he doesn't want Teegan to go with him or do the job instead of him. He's going to sabotage the launch to keep Robin safe.


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Re: Iconoclasts - If that's the best your religion can do, you should probably just give up.

Postby Grounder » 1 month ago

The Doctor wrote: Yes, Elro has someone who can take his place in the mission, but that's not the point. All he cares about right now is protecting Robin. His father (recently?) died, his wife and daughter were killed, and he lost an eye and an arm. The only thing he has left in his life is his sister. He doesn't want her to go on some suicide mission to save the world. He doesn't care about the world any more. He doesn't even care about himself. He's definitely in the wrong, but his actions are totally understandable.
They're literally going to die anyway as far as everyone understands. It's either do something and risk dying or do nothing and die for sure. And, again, he never brings up my idea of swapping Robin out as well. At least some of it is him simply being contrarian, IMO.
Why don't you eat me?

I am perfectly tasty...

AND I'LL STEAL YOUR SOUL! :twisted:

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Re: Iconoclasts - If that's the best your religion can do, you should probably just give up.

Postby Count Mohawk » 1 month ago

Grounder wrote:They're literally going to die anyway as far as everyone understands. It's either do something and risk dying or do nothing and die for sure. And, again, he never brings up my idea of swapping Robin out as well. At least some of it is him simply being contrarian, IMO.
That's the funny thing about certain death, though. Once you've resigned yourself to your own mortality, all other (lesser) concerns just kinda fall away, and you're left with the freedom to decide what you're going to do with your remaining time. Whereas with uncertain death, the drive to avoid that fate remains an important factor. And when the chips are down, as they definitely are here, people will take certain death over uncertain death basically every time. (There's probably a Discworld reference to be had in there somewhere, but I can't remember the exact quote enough to go looking for it.)

Also, while we're on the subject of Elro: I can't help but feel for him. Even though a lot of his problems are more or less self-caused, there's still only so much a man can take. What's the absolute best-case scenario for his life at this point? He's basically dead on the inside.

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Re: Iconoclasts - If that's the best your religion can do, you should probably just give up.

Postby Ignoritus » 1 month ago

The Doctor wrote: Yes, Elro has someone who can take his place in the mission, but that's not the point. All he cares about right now is protecting Robin. His father (recently?) died, his wife and daughter were killed, and he lost an eye and an arm. The only thing he has left in his life is his sister. He doesn't want her to go on some suicide mission to save the world. He doesn't care about the world any more. He doesn't even care about himself. He's definitely in the wrong, but his actions are totally understandable.

So Elro's totally going to sabotage the rocket launch, right? That's clearly why he doesn't want Teegan to go with him or do the job instead of him. He's going to sabotage the launch to keep Robin safe.

My problem with this interpretation is that it adheres to what Elro says instead of what Elro does. Elro is a hypocrite through-and-through who constantly claims he only cares about protecting Robin while he constantly endangers her. His idea of "protection" also has a blatant disrespect for Robin's autonomy. Keep in mind that Elro's family being dead and everything that has happened to Robin thus far is because he let his anger get the best of him, took it out someone who was at least ostensibly kind to him, didn't tell anyone in his family he was wanted, hung around them, and then encouraged Robin to commit a crime when he knew the Agents were after him, getting her implicated too. His pointless grandstanding attempting to take Agent Black alone is what caused Robin to have to go chasing after him for the whole latter section of the game.

As others have pointed out, he's pissmad here because even though in his eyes Robin will die either way he cares more about making sure Robin dies with him, on his terms than letting her fill out her desire to try and stop the apocalypse. He once again attempts to control and possess Robin while completely ignoring her feelings. It's relatable for him to want to be with her for the end, but it's still scummy the way in which he places his own desires above hers especially when you remember that it has been a pattern for the entire game.

And of course, it only gets worse when he later reveals that he's wasting everyone's time trying to lay some elaborate "trap" to force Robin to come back with him. He didn't have to participate but he literally lied to everyone just to try and control Robin again. He's a terrible person.

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Re: Iconoclasts - If that's the best your religion can do, you should probably just give up.

Postby Nimono » 1 month ago

Ignoritus wrote:
The Doctor wrote: Yes, Elro has someone who can take his place in the mission, but that's not the point. All he cares about right now is protecting Robin. His father (recently?) died, his wife and daughter were killed, and he lost an eye and an arm. The only thing he has left in his life is his sister. He doesn't want her to go on some suicide mission to save the world. He doesn't care about the world any more. He doesn't even care about himself. He's definitely in the wrong, but his actions are totally understandable.

So Elro's totally going to sabotage the rocket launch, right? That's clearly why he doesn't want Teegan to go with him or do the job instead of him. He's going to sabotage the launch to keep Robin safe.

My problem with this interpretation is that it adheres to what Elro says instead of what Elro does. Elro is a hypocrite through-and-through who constantly claims he only cares about protecting Robin while he constantly endangers her. His idea of "protection" also has a blatant disrespect for Robin's autonomy. Keep in mind that Elro's family being dead and everything that has happened to Robin thus far is because he let his anger get the best of him, took it out someone who was at least ostensibly kind to him, didn't tell anyone in his family he was wanted, hung around them, and then encouraged Robin to commit a crime when he knew the Agents were after him, getting her implicated too. His pointless grandstanding attempting to take Agent Black alone is what caused Robin to have to go chasing after him for the whole latter section of the game.

As others have pointed out, he's pissmad here because even though in his eyes Robin will die either way he cares more about making sure Robin dies with him, on his terms than letting her fill out her desire to try and stop the apocalypse. He once again attempts to control and possess Robin while completely ignoring her feelings. It's relatable for him to want to be with her for the end, but it's still scummy the way in which he places his own desires above hers especially when you remember that it has been a pattern for the entire game.

And of course, it only gets worse when he later reveals that he's wasting everyone's time trying to lay some elaborate "trap" to force Robin to come back with him. He didn't have to participate but he literally lied to everyone just to try and control Robin again. He's a terrible person.

Yeah this is why I DESPISE Elro, though I think he was written TO be despised, in which case they did a great job.
Kilgamayan wrote: raocow apparently not yet noticing that

two important One Concern characters share names with the Ascent and the Shockwood

.

ALL the areas are named after important One Concern characters, actually! In the Bastion, you see characters named Glass, Shard, Ferrier, and Darland. In the Tower, you also learn of one named Block, I forget if you actually meet them. The non-Concern areas of the game are GLASS Strait, SHARD Desert, FERRIER Shockwood, DARLAND Ascent, and BLOCKrock. It's another reminder of how much control the One Concern has over the world.


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Re: Iconoclasts - If that's the best your religion can do, you should probably just give up.

Postby Cyril » 1 month ago

@Nimono

Block/Blockrock is, I think, the guy who ran out of the city council room before you enter it. The Iconoclasts wiki says the other way around, that the grey-haired lady is Blockrock and the guy who ran out is Shard but obviously that doesn't line up with the in-game textboxes so I dunno what to think, but yeah, aside from Isilugar and the One Concern area (Tower/West/East/City) all the areas are named after people. I wonder if they get renamed every time one of them dies and has to be replaced. Either that or the One Concern is much younger than they want us to believe.

i've honestly never played a video game in my life

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Re: Iconoclasts - It's not like I'm fighting because I want to be popular.

Postby Kilgamayan » 1 month ago

Poor Lawrence is the only one of the boss trio there to not get his own unique boss theme, sharing his with the Silver Watchman. At least that song is an excellent song and fits his fight and character perfectly.

In case you were curious, Mendeleev, Nobel, and Lawrence are named after the three famous scientists that are also the namesakes of elements 101, 102, and 103 in the Periodic Table.

Also, Nobel's vanishing act should have seemed oddly familiar, even right down to the sound effects!

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Re: Iconoclasts - It's not like I'm fighting because I want to be popular.

Postby Blivsey » 1 month ago

It shouldn't be funny to watch Elro hobble along but it is

Also I think your name is Elro apparently?? Might need some more reassurance on that.
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Re: Iconoclasts - It's not like I'm fighting because I want to be popular.

Postby Joseph Staleknight » 1 month ago

It's probably a good thing they stopped making Reborns after Lawrence. Can you imagine the tedium if we had to fight a Rutherford or a Meitner or--heavens forbid--an Oganessian?

Joking aside, those were some crunchy boss fights to digest. Especially Lawrence, who would've been a chump had either of the girls squared off against him instead of our crippled, hobbling swordsbro.
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Re: Iconoclasts - Stop fighting and preaching and getting people riled up just to get what you want.

Postby Cyril » 1 month ago

Updated Gravezone

Polro (Pre-Game) (???)
Agent Grey (Pre-Game) (Juice)
Mrs. Anders (Pre-Game) (Penance)
Henetta (Penance)
Ella (Penance)
Agent White (Seeds)
Gerrie (Fell to his death)
The Silver Watchman (Drowned)
Mother (Seeds)
Father (Shot?)
Chrome (Juice)
Lawrence (Stabbed)

according to the iconoclasts wiki the other two are fine, elro is just like that

i've honestly never played a video game in my life

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Re: Iconoclasts - What am I fighting for?!?

Postby Awoo » 1 month ago

Possible spoilers for tomorrow:
https://www.deviantart.com/veloxiraptor ... -738899441

Love this pic of Agent Black. The arms look seriously cool, and it totally captures her rage. Her character has really grown on me throughout this playthrough.
Don't really understand all the hate for Elro myself either. Have done my best to avoid any and all inline spoilers, so thanks for that, everyone!
He reached one heck of a despair event horizon, so it's not like his actions are necessarily acceptable, but I can at least understand where he's coming from. Of course things can only get more interesting, so, yeah. Not sure what to expect
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Re: Iconoclasts - It's not like I'm fighting because I want to be popular.

Postby The Doctor » 1 month ago

Yeah, I don't get it. Elro has flaws and he's made huge mistakes, but that's why I love the character. I see these posts like "and here's what Elro did wrong and why he's a bad person" and I'm like, yeah, I know. That's what I like about him. *shrugs*

Most video game characters tend to be kinda perfect (or pure evil), so it's great to see someone so human. Characters who have hang ups and flaws and fuck up big time. Characters who make mistakes and don't always learn from them. I love it and if I want to see more characters like Elro.

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Re: Iconoclasts - It's not like I'm fighting because I want to be popular.

Postby Nimono » 1 month ago

The Doctor wrote: Yeah, I don't get it. Elro has flaws and he's made huge mistakes, but that's why I love the character. I see these posts like "and here's what Elro did wrong and why he's a bad person" and I'm like, yeah, I know. That's what I like about him. *shrugs*

Most video game characters tend to be kinda perfect (or pure evil), so it's great to see someone so human. Characters who have hang ups and flaws and fuck up big time. Characters who make mistakes and don't always learn from them. I love it and if I want to see more characters like Elro.
For me, it's more a "love to hate" kind of thing. I hate his attitude toward the end, with how much he tries to deny Robin the ability to decide whether or not to help Royal try one final thing to maybe save the world, but I love how well-written he is, and how despite how much I hate him, I can't deny he has some points in places.

I think the main reason he's despised is because of what he did to Agent Grey, and how not only is he unremorseful, he drags all his family into it by showing up out of the blue when he knows he's wanted for it, even asking Robin to do something he knows the Concern says is illegal.

And the fact that he agreed to help Royal for the express purpose of sabotaging his efforts, SOLELY so he could force Robin back home with him. It's a major sticking point for him- for all she's gone through, all she's DONE for him, all he wants is to deny her the ability to choose.

We never get to see Robin's reaction to Elro repeatedly demanding over the ENTIRE GAME past Isilugar that she go home, but I'm sure she doesn't appreciate him constantly trying to impose his desire to have her continue being alive while he's alive over her desires and choices.

At least, all of that is why I hate him. :D But again, it's all "love-to-hate" hate, not "bad character" hate!

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Re: Iconoclasts - What am I fighting for?!?

Postby Alice » 1 month ago

Awoo wrote: Don't really understand all the hate for Elro myself either. Have done my best to avoid any and all inline spoilers, so thanks for that, everyone!
He reached one heck of a despair event horizon, so it's not like his actions are necessarily acceptable, but I can at least understand where he's coming from. Of course things can only get more interesting, so, yeah. Not sure what to expect
There's a difference between "well-written and understandable character" and "likable character" though. Elro is the former but not the latter.

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Re: Iconoclasts - It's not like I'm fighting because I want to be popular.

Postby Ignoritus » 1 month ago

Yeah to be clear Elro is a fantastic character, just not a good person.
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Re: Iconoclasts - It's not like I'm fighting because I want to be popular.

Postby kitikami » 1 month ago

I love how one of the few boss fights in the entire game raocow beats first try is the one where he has absolutely no idea what is going on.
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Re: Iconoclasts - Stop fighting and preaching and getting people riled up just to get what you want.

Postby Cyril » 1 month ago

Updated Gravezone

Polro (Pre-Game) (???)
Agent Grey (Pre-Game) (Juice)
Mrs. Anders (Pre-Game) (Penance)
Henetta (Penance)
Ella (Penance)
Agent White (Seeds)
Gerrie (Fell to his death)
The Silver Watchman (Drowned)
Mother (Seeds)
Father (Shot?)
Chrome (Juice)
Lawrence (Stabbed)
Black ( :( )

yeah.

huge shoutout to both songs during this boss sequence btw
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Re: Iconoclasts - It's not like I'm fighting because I want to be popular.

Postby Blivsey » 1 month ago

honestly i was pulling for black to join the playable cast right up until robin started shoving seeds into her, at which point it was pretty obviously not going to happen anymore :cry:
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