gunter glieben glauten globen
Vanilla Level Design Contest 11 -- Happy New Year!!
- Mata Hari
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- Mata Hari
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Re: Vanilla Level Design Contest 11 -- Two eyes with eyelashes
although I don't think it ruins the level overall I think it's way too easy to misinterpret that setup in Boney Basin and raocow shouldn't have bothered to try to defend it
Re: Vanilla Level Design Contest 11 -- Two eyes with eyelashes
85th (tied), SUGARLESS CAVE, by tcdw
50.00/100.00 points
Scores:
85th (tied), Cloudcracker Ruins, by kamekku14
50.00/100.00 points
Scores:
84th, BONEY BASIN, by Sparky
50.50/100.00 points
Scores:
The nice thing about people getting overall better at SMW hacking is that even the lower-placing levels are usually competent if unambitious or otherwise flawed in some way. Of course, this doesn't always make for good TV so we're probably entering a period of time where a lot of levels might feel of similar, inoffensive quality. That's usually how these contests go but I'd rather have a lot of okay levels than lots of outright bad ones.
50.00/100.00 points
Scores:
50.00/100.00 points
Scores:
50.50/100.00 points
Scores:
- Kleetus
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Re: Vanilla Level Design Contest 11 -- Two eyes with eyelashes
"GO LEFT. YOUR OTHER LEFT." Made me smile far more than it should have.
- raocow
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Re: Vanilla Level Design Contest 11 -- Two eyes with eyelashes
two hours fourty minutes, savestates during the last hour
like the level is amazing but it grounded me down to the core, at some point I was just savestating because I was exhausted and couldn't concentrate :I
like the level is amazing but it grounded me down to the core, at some point I was just savestating because I was exhausted and couldn't concentrate :I
the chillaxest of dragons
Re: Vanilla Level Design Contest 11 -- Two eyes with eyelashes
I applaud you for attempting it without savestates. Don't feel bad about it. I didn't even beat the level in judging but I'll have more words about that tomorrow.
83rd, LOOPYLABYRINTH, by Caracc
51.00/100.00 points
Scores:
80th (tied), NIGHT GRASSLAND, by monkey03297
51.25/100.00 points
Scores:
80th (tied), Flying Fish Fort, by Fostelif
51.25/100.00 points
Scores:
As I guessed, the other judges didn't see Loopy Labyrinth the way I did. The Max-Min for the level was 33, a really high value. But that's fine, since we talked about it and ultimately decided to let me keep my score as it was since I felt strongly about it. If you could back up your reason for heavily liking or disliking a level when the other judges were more or less similar in their scores, we let those outliers through. We'll see the level with the highest Max-Min value in a few days...
83rd, LOOPYLABYRINTH, by Caracc
51.00/100.00 points
Scores:
51.25/100.00 points
Scores:
51.25/100.00 points
Scores:
Re: Vanilla Level Design Contest 11 -- A one and another
Maybe if you're psychic.
Why don't you eat me?
I am perfectly tasty...
AND I'LL STEAL YOUR SOUL!
I am perfectly tasty...
AND I'LL STEAL YOUR SOUL!
Re: Vanilla Level Design Contest 11 -- A one and another
I'm guessing the "Theoretically beatable on the first try" was just to say "you didn't have to beat the level by getting the Dragon Coins and then dying so don't dock points for the timer reset"? Not that I'm sure how one would do that, but the level author who put the text there definitely knows more than me about SMW.
- BobisOnlyBob
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Re: Vanilla Level Design Contest 11 -- A one and another
It's an in-joke; a reference to one of the author's previous infamously hard levels that at the time they were quite defensive about, but apparently they've mellowed out (and changed username since then).
Of course I say mellowed out, but wow this level. Quite something. Very good, but I agree with the sentiments from Youtube that this belongs over in KLDC, this is just.. much too much.
- SpoonyBardOL
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Re: Vanilla Level Design Contest 11 -- A one and another
Haha wow, I usually watch raocow's morning video on my lunch break, but I couldn't quite fit this one in!
- FrozenQuills
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Re: Vanilla Level Design Contest 11 -- A one and another
this is how i felt about today's level
avatar by crayonchewer!
- Zephyr_DragonLord
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Re: Vanilla Level Design Contest 11 -- A one and another
Seems like a natural reaction. As for my opinion... this level's well-made enough, but it's hard to both get into the headspace it wants you to be, and then execute some of the trickier manuvers. And as such, seeing it down here is not too large of a surprise simply due to sheer difficulty. I have no problems with it existing, but if this was hard split into 3 parts, this would be somewhat managable for a player of above-average skill. Also the level doesn't look the best, but that's most levels of this breed. Kaizo levels that look good are a rarity, even today...
Last edited by Zephyr_DragonLord 4 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
I am prone to almost everything... except spontaneous violence.
Any questions, concerns, or aspirations you have with me can go to the PM box... Now here's a quote:
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Any questions, concerns, or aspirations you have with me can go to the PM box... Now here's a quote:
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(It was about time)
Re: Vanilla Level Design Contest 11 -- A one and another
Mountan Castle is the hardest level in this contest. It looks good and it's very creative. I liked tutorial section despite dying and "hold B always" section near the end. These 2 parts of the level were the best for me.
What I didn't like? Other than crazy hard difficulty I didn't like dying in tutorial zone. I know it's connected to dragon coin checkpoint, which I also don't like. The reason was shown in raocow video. If you don't collect all dragon coins in last jump, then you are going back to tutorial where you die. Otherwise you can continue.
For me this 4 dragon coin jump was very hard. I admit I was doing it wrong. I tried to squeeze between thwomps, because while Yoshi glitch actually teach about teleporting through tiles, I didn't know it also teleports Mario through sprites. And collecting 4 dragon coins made this jump super hard for me.
There are levels that use "get checkpoint, then die to continue level" gimmick. But in this one going back to tutorial and dying there meant that level is broken and can't be completed. All I needed to do was to reenter the level, which I did 1 hour of rest later after figuring out that maybe I triggered dragon coin checkpoint. Because it's not obvious.
And since Yoshi glitch is presented into tutorial, the note block glitch should also be put into tutorial. These teleporting note blocks are crazy and it really cought me off guard.
I also didn't like thwimp filter at the beginning. Fire Flower is only needed for shooting plant near it and that's all. At this point I thought that author gives me a leeway and then in next section I just died. Just like raocow shown in his video. The thing is player can't know that Fire Flower is needed after first plant. It's not indicated at all. That's why it feels unfair.
In water section I don't like that lower part of upside down water isn't swimmable. This is something that screwed me a lot.
At the end of water section is feeding Yoshi part. Despite many deaths I managed to beat it quite easily on my first run. But on my second playthrough I had huge bad luck. I was eating shell and 2 koopas and apple perfectly and apple. And Yoshi refused to grow. I tried few times, then I watched author video to find out that he's eating the same sprites. So I was doing the correct stuff, but somehow failing. It was quite mysterious. After many tries of doing the same stuff Yoshi finally grew. I have no idea what I did differently. I suspect that Yoshi need to double eat one of the sprites or apple. But I have no idea how to control that. For me it was really random.
Math platforms is something that stopped my first run. I was so exhausted that I just couldn't think about solution. Before second playthrough I watched author video how to solve it. And if you know what to do, it's not that hard.
And by the way, raocow, you are wrong. This isn't troll level. I actually thought it's a troll level and it should be submitted to KLDC instead. Boy, he was angry. I apologized and in summary he told me that Kaizo contest allows chocolate stuff, so level would be created in completely different way. Besides there is no rule forbidding submission of kaizo levels into VLDC. And level has been created for fun and as a glitch showcase. And that's why it's not a troll level.
What I didn't like? Other than crazy hard difficulty I didn't like dying in tutorial zone. I know it's connected to dragon coin checkpoint, which I also don't like. The reason was shown in raocow video. If you don't collect all dragon coins in last jump, then you are going back to tutorial where you die. Otherwise you can continue.
For me this 4 dragon coin jump was very hard. I admit I was doing it wrong. I tried to squeeze between thwomps, because while Yoshi glitch actually teach about teleporting through tiles, I didn't know it also teleports Mario through sprites. And collecting 4 dragon coins made this jump super hard for me.
There are levels that use "get checkpoint, then die to continue level" gimmick. But in this one going back to tutorial and dying there meant that level is broken and can't be completed. All I needed to do was to reenter the level, which I did 1 hour of rest later after figuring out that maybe I triggered dragon coin checkpoint. Because it's not obvious.
And since Yoshi glitch is presented into tutorial, the note block glitch should also be put into tutorial. These teleporting note blocks are crazy and it really cought me off guard.
I also didn't like thwimp filter at the beginning. Fire Flower is only needed for shooting plant near it and that's all. At this point I thought that author gives me a leeway and then in next section I just died. Just like raocow shown in his video. The thing is player can't know that Fire Flower is needed after first plant. It's not indicated at all. That's why it feels unfair.
In water section I don't like that lower part of upside down water isn't swimmable. This is something that screwed me a lot.
At the end of water section is feeding Yoshi part. Despite many deaths I managed to beat it quite easily on my first run. But on my second playthrough I had huge bad luck. I was eating shell and 2 koopas and apple perfectly and apple. And Yoshi refused to grow. I tried few times, then I watched author video to find out that he's eating the same sprites. So I was doing the correct stuff, but somehow failing. It was quite mysterious. After many tries of doing the same stuff Yoshi finally grew. I have no idea what I did differently. I suspect that Yoshi need to double eat one of the sprites or apple. But I have no idea how to control that. For me it was really random.
Math platforms is something that stopped my first run. I was so exhausted that I just couldn't think about solution. Before second playthrough I watched author video how to solve it. And if you know what to do, it's not that hard.
And by the way, raocow, you are wrong. This isn't troll level. I actually thought it's a troll level and it should be submitted to KLDC instead. Boy, he was angry. I apologized and in summary he told me that Kaizo contest allows chocolate stuff, so level would be created in completely different way. Besides there is no rule forbidding submission of kaizo levels into VLDC. And level has been created for fun and as a glitch showcase. And that's why it's not a troll level.
- Piesonscreations
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Re: Vanilla Level Design Contest 11 -- A one and another
This seems like one of those levels that need to be played at half speed to just take in everything that's going on.
- BobisOnlyBob
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Re: Vanilla Level Design Contest 11 -- A one and another
and watched at double speed to fit it into lunch!Piesonscreations wrote: ↑4 years ago This seems like one of those levels that need to be played at half speed to just take in everything that's going on.
Re: Vanilla Level Design Contest 11 -- A one and another
80th (tied), Mountan Castle, by jesus
51.25/100.00 points
Scores:
A divisive level for the judges. If I'm reading morsel's comments right he originally intended to give the level a 99/100 but cut the Design score in half because the fact there is no retry system like in actual kaizo levels destroys the flow of it. Meanwhile, I didn't even finish the level because I couldn't figure out how to get in the third section's pipe after growing the yoshi. It didn't occur to me that he'd turn invisible and exist wherever he got grown. And I think that hurts the level to an extent because it is so reliant on the player understanding the sheer magnitude of glitchiness that exists within vanilla SMW. Eventually I did beat the level in my own LP (not linking because the first or two videos contains a level raocow hasn't seen yet) but I certainly didn't do it savestateless.
As I played it more, as I thought about it more, I think I might have scored it a little bit higher towards where Ryaa and FrozenQuills scored it, but the level is still one that really doesn't fit in VLDC. And I think the fact that I did not finish the level needed to be accounted for in the scoring. Too brutal for me to finish at the time.
I think the third section is my favorite because it has this incredible sense of speed and flow for most of it. You're basically going at a breakneck pace for the majority of the level weaving in and out of pushing tides and between all kinds of large enemies. It's kind of a thrill honestly.
It's a cool level, but it just doesn't fit this contest very well, and placing in the lower half of it seems appropriate.
51.25/100.00 points
Scores:
As I played it more, as I thought about it more, I think I might have scored it a little bit higher towards where Ryaa and FrozenQuills scored it, but the level is still one that really doesn't fit in VLDC. And I think the fact that I did not finish the level needed to be accounted for in the scoring. Too brutal for me to finish at the time.
I think the third section is my favorite because it has this incredible sense of speed and flow for most of it. You're basically going at a breakneck pace for the majority of the level weaving in and out of pushing tides and between all kinds of large enemies. It's kind of a thrill honestly.
It's a cool level, but it just doesn't fit this contest very well, and placing in the lower half of it seems appropriate.
Re: Vanilla Level Design Contest 11 -- A one and another
Apparently this is a controversial opinion but I'm gonna say it:
This level was bad.
Like, I get it, as a construct it's really cool. It's a very elaborate setup and run right it looks very impressive. But as "a level in a videogame" it's a trainwreck. There's cognitive speed, and there's reflex speed. Those are two very different speeds and it is virtually impossible to challenge both of them at the same time. This level tried to challenge both simultaneously at the pace of your reflex speed. You needed every movement to occur at just the right time with tight movements or you lose. At the same time you need to deduce what your next movement is in real-time as pieces of the level are revealed. This would be virtually impossible in a normal level (as evidenced by that level raocow struggled with a few days ago that had the same problem), but it was triply so here due to the use of glitchy and counter-intuitive mechanics. As a result, this level truly is only possible on a first try "theoretically". The normal person literally *cannot* beat this level without knowing everything that's coming in advance because the reaction speeds required are faster than it's possible to mentally "solve" the route. This level was exhausting to watch because every time a bit of new screen was revealed I'd have to sit there and try and figure out what in hell the level expected you to do. Doing that while playing is impossible.
So basically, this level by definition required you to die repeatedly over and over to make any progress. I know Kaizo fans are a thing, but outside of a niche fanbase this is pretty much a universal qualifier for "a bad level", especially when the context is definitely not a Kaizo contest.
This level was bad.
Like, I get it, as a construct it's really cool. It's a very elaborate setup and run right it looks very impressive. But as "a level in a videogame" it's a trainwreck. There's cognitive speed, and there's reflex speed. Those are two very different speeds and it is virtually impossible to challenge both of them at the same time. This level tried to challenge both simultaneously at the pace of your reflex speed. You needed every movement to occur at just the right time with tight movements or you lose. At the same time you need to deduce what your next movement is in real-time as pieces of the level are revealed. This would be virtually impossible in a normal level (as evidenced by that level raocow struggled with a few days ago that had the same problem), but it was triply so here due to the use of glitchy and counter-intuitive mechanics. As a result, this level truly is only possible on a first try "theoretically". The normal person literally *cannot* beat this level without knowing everything that's coming in advance because the reaction speeds required are faster than it's possible to mentally "solve" the route. This level was exhausting to watch because every time a bit of new screen was revealed I'd have to sit there and try and figure out what in hell the level expected you to do. Doing that while playing is impossible.
So basically, this level by definition required you to die repeatedly over and over to make any progress. I know Kaizo fans are a thing, but outside of a niche fanbase this is pretty much a universal qualifier for "a bad level", especially when the context is definitely not a Kaizo contest.
Re: Vanilla Level Design Contest 11 -- A one and another
ahhilikethislevel its so super imaginative! like the [⟫⟫⟫⟫] horizontal warpings block〜the bizarre invisi-yoshi jumps〜the ⟪no things pass·through·able block⟫ ahhh its all so good*₊˚⁎ i get it, i fully get its issues.. major ones... but ahh its soo neato to watch⁛.⁙ like major majors props to rao for recording this nightmare⚟ i have no clue how any of these obstacles were done but i love loved what was done today#♡ ♡
- Valentine
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Re: Vanilla Level Design Contest 11 -- A one and another
I'm not really gonna bother defending my argument past this post but I just wanna put this out there.
I disagree with anyone saying that this is "Not the right contest for this sort of level" because, nowhere is it stated, that this is a contest for a specific ideology of level design, kaizo is a different way to design a level, yes, but why should it mean that a kaizo level doesn't fit in a contest for which the only stipulation is that the level has to be vanilla, just like how this adds a layer of creative challenge to orthodox methods of creating levels it is also the case for levels which fall into different category of level design. Therefore, why should an entire way of designing a level be considered wrong for a contest which doesn't state anything about how you should design a level.
I'm sorry if this post is kinda a mess but it's friday night and I'm tired, if anyone wants clarification I'll try to reword it but I'm not looking to argue my point to anyone who disagrees, I'm not trying to convince anyone, I'm just putting my opinion out there.
(For the record, in case anyone cares, I don't play kaizo)
I disagree with anyone saying that this is "Not the right contest for this sort of level" because, nowhere is it stated, that this is a contest for a specific ideology of level design, kaizo is a different way to design a level, yes, but why should it mean that a kaizo level doesn't fit in a contest for which the only stipulation is that the level has to be vanilla, just like how this adds a layer of creative challenge to orthodox methods of creating levels it is also the case for levels which fall into different category of level design. Therefore, why should an entire way of designing a level be considered wrong for a contest which doesn't state anything about how you should design a level.
I'm sorry if this post is kinda a mess but it's friday night and I'm tired, if anyone wants clarification I'll try to reword it but I'm not looking to argue my point to anyone who disagrees, I'm not trying to convince anyone, I'm just putting my opinion out there.
(For the record, in case anyone cares, I don't play kaizo)
Re: Vanilla Level Design Contest 11 -- A one and another
Well sure, the contest didn't disallow Kaizo levels, but in general most VLDC judges are not Kaizo-judges, meaning it's heavily discouraged to submit a Kaizo level because they won't be able to score the level properly. Of course, this can get into a whole different argument about how we should or should not be building levels to appeal to specific judges if you know who they are and their judging/playing history. So when we say that it doesn't really fit the contest it's because we aren't going to be able to play, think, and score a Kaizo level appropriately compared to our ability to score "regular" levels. That's how I've always thought of it.
(To some extent it also stems from the fact that when the contest was started back in 2008, Kaizo was barely a thing yet. Kaizo levels were also not even allowed on the site until the early 2010s, so there's always been a feeling/tradition of "don't submit Kaizo to the contest unless you don't care that it scores really poorly.)
We're considering straight up disallowing Kaizo levels in the future but we haven't come to a conclusion on it yet. But I know for a fact that the judges currently going through the levels for the Baserom Level Design Contest right now are not happy to be encountering Kaizo levels they don't enjoy playing and can't score properly.
edit: I'm not trying to argue with you either. I'm just in the unique position to give actual insight into the judging, rules, and contest history as the contest's original creator all those years ago.
(To some extent it also stems from the fact that when the contest was started back in 2008, Kaizo was barely a thing yet. Kaizo levels were also not even allowed on the site until the early 2010s, so there's always been a feeling/tradition of "don't submit Kaizo to the contest unless you don't care that it scores really poorly.)
We're considering straight up disallowing Kaizo levels in the future but we haven't come to a conclusion on it yet. But I know for a fact that the judges currently going through the levels for the Baserom Level Design Contest right now are not happy to be encountering Kaizo levels they don't enjoy playing and can't score properly.
edit: I'm not trying to argue with you either. I'm just in the unique position to give actual insight into the judging, rules, and contest history as the contest's original creator all those years ago.
Re: Vanilla Level Design Contest 11 -- A one and another
The problem with Kaizo in particular is that Kaizo is by its nature considered bad level design by a majority of players. We sit in a community that is adjacent enough to Kaizo fans to understand that it appeals to some people, but if you walk out and hand a Kaizo level to any traditional gamer they're going to get frustrated and consider it a bad level. Which is fair because on a surface level Kaizo betrays a myriad of good level design principles. Kaizo also kind of represents changing the philosophy of the game so much that it's not really a Mario World level any more. As I see it, Kaizo is inherently about practicing again and again at something brutally difficult in order to experience that high of getting that one perfect run. That's not Super Mario World.Sanct wrote: ↑4 years ago I disagree with anyone saying that this is "Not the right contest for this sort of level" because, nowhere is it stated, that this is a contest for a specific ideology of level design, kaizo is a different way to design a level, yes, but why should it mean that a kaizo level doesn't fit in a contest for which the only stipulation is that the level has to be vanilla, just like how this adds a layer of creative challenge to orthodox methods of creating levels it is also the case for levels which fall into different category of level design. Therefore, why should an entire way of designing a level be considered wrong for a contest which doesn't state anything about how you should design a level.
It's kind of a shame that Kaizo is done almost exclusively through hacks where I don't think it's given a chance to shine. Kaizo as a "genre" could work given a game properly dedicated to it. Because there's little demand I'm not aware of any game that properly supports it with things like being able to view the full level in advance and route-plan or default savestates in locations to allow you to practice different segments of a level. Kind of like Touhou's mode for practicing specific bullet patterns.
Re: Vanilla Level Design Contest 11 -- A one and another
it's important for judges to play a level fairly and legitimately in order to be able to properly critique it. really, mountan should've been disqualified by the sheer fact that most of the judges had to use savestates to get through it. the problem with kaizo in regular ldcs is less that it's very hard, and more that the judges we bring on are not going to spend hours on a single level because they're not kaizo players. and as soon as a judge needs to use tools to judge a level, theyre no longer judging the level fairly. and if a judge can't judge a level fairly, then it's not fair to the other entries or the spirit of the contest.
i'd agree with banning kaizo entries from all future regular ldcs for that reason.
i'd agree with banning kaizo entries from all future regular ldcs for that reason.
Re: Vanilla Level Design Contest 11 -- A one and another
also
and while it may not be explicitly kaizo, games like celeste or dark souls that are supposed to be very hard and not accessible to all players still have a huge audience. the problem with kaizo isn't that it's considered bad level design, i'd argue much of the entries we've seen so far have had bad level design from being uninteresting, uninspired, or clearly having no focus on the ways in which the enemies interact with the environment or what they add to the level. the real "problem" with kaizo is it's inaccessible to many romhack players due to the high skill level and patience it requires. and our regular LDCs do not ask for the players or judges to be able to have that high skill level / patience.
maybe 5 years ago, but if you take a look at the hacks hosted on smwc - especially the ones that end up in our waiting section, many of them are kaizo. in fact, we even have 7 hack moderators who focus on kaizo/troll hacks.Ignoritus wrote:The problem with Kaizo in particular is that Kaizo is by its nature considered bad level design by a majority of players.
and while it may not be explicitly kaizo, games like celeste or dark souls that are supposed to be very hard and not accessible to all players still have a huge audience. the problem with kaizo isn't that it's considered bad level design, i'd argue much of the entries we've seen so far have had bad level design from being uninteresting, uninspired, or clearly having no focus on the ways in which the enemies interact with the environment or what they add to the level. the real "problem" with kaizo is it's inaccessible to many romhack players due to the high skill level and patience it requires. and our regular LDCs do not ask for the players or judges to be able to have that high skill level / patience.
Last edited by idol 4 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
- Valentine
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Re: Vanilla Level Design Contest 11 -- A one and another
(I didn't write that, that was ignoritus' post)
Re: Vanilla Level Design Contest 11 -- A one and another
talkhausers is the same