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Donkey Kong Country 3 - Unbelievable type of a situation

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Re: Donkey Kong Country 3 - Welcome to Kanada!

Postby raocow » 1 month ago

probably not. Like I appreciate the gesture but like with the previous dkc, this is more of a personal nostalgic adventure and I'm pretty happy with it. Though it's something I might want to poke that in the future, it's not something for *right now*. But thank you!
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Re: Donkey Kong Country 3 - Welcome to Kanada!

Postby J. J. W. Mezun » 1 month ago

& YOUR PASTIMES
CONSISTED O’ THE STRANGE
& TWISTED & DERANGED
& I HATE THAT LI’L GAME YOU HAD CALLED
“CRYING LIGHTNING”
& HOW YOU LIKED TO AGGRAVATE THE ICKY MAN
ON RAINY AFTERNOONS.

UNINVITING
BUT NOT HALF AS IMPOSSIBLE
AS EVERYONE ASSUMES YOU ARE —
CRYING LIGHTNING…

DUN DUN DUN DUN
DUN DUN DUN DUN
I was edging on my seat to see if raocow would beat “Lightning Lookout” 1st try idiot, only for him to troll us & sacrifice diaper gorilla for the letter “G” & jump into a bee.

Though I always dreaded this level as a kid, I can’t hate it too much. It’s so memorable & atmospheric, & it actually works very well with the riverrun race music.

Having said that, I ne’er had nearly as much trouble on “Koindozer Klamber”, so I’m shocked by how salty raocow got playing it. Perhaps I should try this level ’gain, as it’s been a while, ¿but don’t you just have to aim for the center & you’ll be fine? I always thought this level was fun, & would have been a great gimmick to end this game on if not for Rare’s terrible decision to continue with 1 last level & making that last level the dumbest thing in the world.
KobaBeach wrote: A few people complained about Poisonous Pipeline but I dont get it? Reverse controls aren't the end of the world for me.
From my perspective, the worst levels aren’t the most ridiculous or insane, since those are a’least memorable, but the most boring & pointless, & reversed controls are pointless. They are the low-hanging fruit o’ level design. This level isn’t e’en very hard — it’s just dodging moving enemies while holding a different button from usual. Contrast that with “Platform Perils” & specially “Screech’s Sprint”, which are memorable levels with good challenges to finish off the main levels.

& they couldn’t e’en bother to come up with a good explanation. ¿How does poison = reversed controls? Poison should hurt you. ¿& why were Diddy & Donkey able to swim in green poison perfectly fine in the 1st game, but purple poison reversed controls?

For me, “O, this is too outrageous” is ne’er an automatic bad thing, as difficult games are just as valid as easy games. It’s, “O, you didn’t put the slightest bit o’ effort in this” that is the death knell for me, & I see no effort in this gimmick.

The bonuses, in particular, are lazy. Seriously, ¿go in a circle — on the last level? Rare, ¿why?

Something I will disagree with other critics o’ these levels, though, is I still think these levels have gorgeous graphics & music. This world has some o’ the best palettes. E’en poison pipeline looks cool in how grungy it looks & how eerily low-key its music is; & I have to admit, purple is a’least better to look @ than gray or green.

O well. A’least we have 1 mo’ bonus level to cleanse our palette after the lamest level in the world & ’nother lame Rareware boss.

O wait, it’s “Rocket Run”, which also blows.

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Re: Donkey Kong Country 3 - Welcome to Kanada!

Postby Paragraph » 1 month ago

I deeply loathe Poisonous Pipeline, because it prevented me from finishing DKC3 for literal years. As I've mentioned before, I played this at a buddy's house (who owned it), and when we got there, we both could for the life of us not figure out how to even progress beyond the first screen.

I got the idea deeply entrenched into me that the level had a strong current which always pushed me to the left despite me holding right as hard as I could. I tried jumping out of the water and back in with some momentum to float just a little further to the right, I used Kiddy to skip on it a little, floated with Dixie, just to try and get over the "current zone". I had figured out that not pressing any buttons led to the water leaving me alone, so maybe I had to try and swim without pressing a direction? Sometimes I would go to the right for a bit (when frantically pushing all buttons), so I was like YES, FINALLY, OUT OF THE CURRENT, pushed right...and would get sent backwards again.

Also fun: because we both didn't get it, at all, for months with breaks and longer, when we landed in the water and were "pushed" to the left screen edge, there was nothing we could do but reset the console and try again, with a new tactic of maybe this time landing in the water The One Right Way To Beat The Current.

Because that's the thing, of course the level has "just" reversed controls, you can adapt to that, and the swimming itself is not that hard, but neither of us had ever encountered reversed controls in a game before. It just makes no logical sense, why would pushing left now mean right? It's a completely abstract concept that might be extremely easy for some and completely impossible for others. Maybe it's the way my brain works (or did at that point), but even 10 years later and with the knowledge that this one was an issue, I also couldn't figure out The Barrel in Sonic 3.

It's the same principle: there's something that seems intuitive (the water has a current, you have to jump on the barrel with the right rhythm), but that's not the solution, it's actually something completely abstract related to button presses on a controller. And that's just not something I ever think of. I don't know if I can particularly blame the game designers for not taking this into account, and maybe all of them also had vast experience with previous games they played that at some point reversed controls, but I sure as hell can loathe the level forever due to my memories of endless frustration with it.

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Re: Donkey Kong Country 3 - Welcome to Kanada!

Postby Leet » 1 month ago

J. J. W. Mezun wrote: The bonuses, in particular, are lazy. Seriously, ¿go in a circle — on the last level? Rare, ¿why?
That bonus makes perfect sense to me for a level with reversed controls. It's go in a precise circle, in order to get all the stars; basically expecting the precision and confidence you have with a normal level, but with the level's gimmick making that simple task a little thrown off.
Well it is a decent hack but sometime its just too repetitif there no level that actually pop in your face and your like oh yeah that level they all ressemble themselves and just monster along the way.
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Re: Donkey Kong Country 3 - Welcome to Kanada!

Postby ano0maly » 1 month ago

Lightning Lookout was really frightening for me when I was young; the first time I saw it cleared was when I was with my friends to play the game together and one of them beat it for me. I was so relieved when I was past it that Koindozer Klamber was a breeze for me. The Koindozer level has far fewer things that hurt a kong, which as I said before felt more unpleasant to see than just falling into a pit. It's not that hard with Dixie, who in this game I used a lot, predictably.
Paragraph wrote:
Because that's the thing, of course the level has "just" reversed controls, you can adapt to that, and the swimming itself is not that hard, but neither of us had ever encountered reversed controls in a game before. It just makes no logical sense, why would pushing left now mean right?
I know I said this before in sort of a jest but that's totally your fault.

If pressing right makes you go left, then why just not try pressing left instead? And as you said you tried not pressing anything and you're not getting pushed by the water, so logically the other direction is your remaining option. I do understand that some people do not like handling reversed controls, but at least finding out what the gimmick is takes one simple step. The more confusing thing is how leaving the water flips the controls again, and if the level made more use of that it could get really frustrating.

This is far from the only game that uses reverse control mechanics, and I don't think it's fair to unload on this level just because this is the first such game you played. In fact even the predecessor, DKC2, has this in the K. Rool fight.
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Re: Donkey Kong Country 3 - Welcome to Kanada!

Postby Grounder » 1 month ago

still shorter credits than guitar hero
Why don't you eat me?

I am perfectly tasty...

AND I'LL STEAL YOUR SOUL! :twisted:

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Re: Donkey Kong Country 3 - Welcome to Kanada!

Postby KobaBeach » 1 month ago

J. J. W. Mezun wrote: pp is boring
It's not really that that I'm talking about, I can see what you mean, it and

Rocket Rush

are both anticlimactic, underwhelming levels. It's just that I've seen people in this very thread who got mad at Poisonous Pipeline over never encountering backwards controls before and it's like, chill
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Re: Donkey Kong Country 3 - Welcome to Kanada!

Postby Paragraph » 1 month ago

ano0maly wrote: I know I said this before in sort of a jest but that's totally your fault.
Never claimed otherwise!
If pressing right makes you go left, then why just not try pressing left instead?
Because I got the "current" idea completely stuck in my head :partygator:
And as you said you tried not pressing anything and you're not getting pushed by the water, so logically the other direction is your remaining option. I do understand that some people do not like handling reversed controls, but at least finding out what the gimmick is takes one simple step. The more confusing thing is how leaving the water flips the controls again, and if the level made more use of that it could get really frustrating.

This is far from the only game that uses reverse control mechanics, and I don't think it's fair to unload on this level just because this is the first such game you played. In fact even the predecessor, DKC2, has this in the K. Rool fight.
Why should I be fair to this game?

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Re: Donkey Kong Country 3 - Welcome to Kanada!

Postby ShadowTurtle » 1 month ago

Maybe you know this, But after you unlocked the true final boss, try going into any level in Krematoa.

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Re: Donkey Kong Country 3 - Welcome to Kanada!

Postby Bean » 1 month ago

I mean, this one is pretty much Gimmick Platformer: The Game. Either you're going to really like it (me) or not (a good many other people).

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Re: Donkey Kong Country 3 - Welcome to Kanada!

Postby Xenesis » 1 month ago

ano0maly wrote:
Paragraph wrote:
Because that's the thing, of course the level has "just" reversed controls, you can adapt to that, and the swimming itself is not that hard, but neither of us had ever encountered reversed controls in a game before. It just makes no logical sense, why would pushing left now mean right?
I know I said this before in sort of a jest but that's totally your fault.

If pressing right makes you go left, then why just not try pressing left instead? And as you said you tried not pressing anything and you're not getting pushed by the water, so logically the other direction is your remaining option. I do understand that some people do not like handling reversed controls, but at least finding out what the gimmick is takes one simple step. The more confusing thing is how leaving the water flips the controls again, and if the level made more use of that it could get really frustrating.

This is far from the only game that uses reverse control mechanics, and I don't think it's fair to unload on this level just because this is the first such game you played. In fact even the predecessor, DKC2, has this in the K. Rool fight.
Eh, they're not the only one.

As kids, my cousin and I were stuck on the start of poisonous pipeline for weeks. The only reason we worked it out was because we started going the opposite direction because I held the controller when getting up.

The start of the level needs something that'll encourage you to go left at the start (like some bananas or something) so you get that ah ha moment.

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Re: Donkey Kong Country 3 - Welcome to Kanada!

Postby J. J. W. Mezun » 1 month ago

KobaBeach wrote:
J. J. W. Mezun wrote: pp is boring
It's not really that that I'm talking about, I can see what you mean, it and

Rocket Rush

are both anticlimactic, underwhelming levels. It's just that I've seen people in this very thread who got mad at Poisonous Pipeline over never encountering backwards controls before and it's like, chill
I don’t think there’s anything that truly pisses me off ’bout this game — just things that sets off my anal-retentive pretentiousness. ( Spits out wine ). <¡This is chilled Donkey Kong Country!>.
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Re: Donkey Kong Country 3 - Welcome to Kanada!

Postby ano0maly » 1 month ago

I was also thinking that it could help to have some sort of split path so that the player can choose where to go first, and learn about the gimmick that way.

And it was cringy in the lightning level raocow kept throwing away barrels when Dixie could use them as hats. The fact that she tosses them quite slowly, pulling the barrels back before throwing, and also moves slowly during the process made me afraid that she would get struck because of it, if that's a thing that can happen.
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Re: Donkey Kong Country 3 - Welcome to Kanada!

Postby konaa » 1 month ago

I still like this game. Obviously 2 is the best it gets, but I might still like this more than 1. I'm a sucker for weird level gimmicks though, and that's all this game is. Aesthetically I think 1 has the best style because there was a conscious push towards wowing people with big, naturalistic, cgi sprites. The subsequent games get a little more fun and cartoony with the sprites, which looks nice but isn't quite as striking.

personally the part that most weirds me out is how much dialogue there is in this game. I don't mind it when the NPCs talk, but seeing dixie and kiddie speak freaks me out.

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Re: Donkey Kong Country 3 - Welcome to Kanada!

Postby Aqualakitu » 1 month ago

On the whole the game's alright, if just a bit uninspired. There's nothing inherently wrong with gimmicky levels, but I never feel like they go all the way with using what they set up. Like someone handed a neat idea to a level designer that had no clue what to do with it since everything is just that slight bit bland and same-y. Both in the let's play and my last playthrough of the game I noticed level segments in a few levels that are straight up repeated with no change. Same environmental pieces and same enemy placements.
Obviously the game suffers from being compared to 2, but even on its own it lacks that certain "spark" like raocow said. By no means bad, but it's kind of the "Dark Souls 2" of the franchise in that there's neat ideas but they aren't executed well, so everything feels a little undercooked and like the B-team handled things.

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Re: Donkey Kong Country 3 - Welcome to Kanada!

Postby WestonSmith » 1 month ago

Well's its unfortunate raocow didn't care much for this one. When I replayed the DKC series in April, this one still stood out as the best of the bunch. DKC1 is fun to speedrun, DKC2 was full of cool stuff but bogged down by some truly awful levels and secrets, DKC3 is the highpoint for me, DKC Returns lacks polish and feels bloated, and Tropical Freeze is pretty darn great.

Different strokes for different folks I suppose.

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Re: Donkey Kong Country 3 - Welcome to Kanada!

Postby KobaBeach » 1 month ago

I'm the sort of sucker who likes Brutal Mario post cheap demo so, I kinda liked DKC3 the last time I played. I haven't played it in a long while, but I realize it's quite a few steps below Donkey Kong Country 2. I do wish they went with Dixie and Donkey rather than Dixie and Kiddy (keep Dixie in the leading role tho).

Xenesis wrote: The start of the level needs something that'll encourage you to go left at the start (like some bananas or something) so you get that ah ha moment.
I thought Simon was being too severe on the game but I agree with this. Properly conveying stuff is key to good gamefeel.

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Re: Donkey Kong Country 3 - Welcome to Kanada!

Postby MonkeyShrapnel » 1 month ago

The funny thing is that Donkey Kong Land 3 is pretty much the opposite of this game,
many of the level "gimmicks" are still there, but they're not confined to just one level.
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Re: Donkey Kong Country 3 - Welcome to Kanada!

Postby Joseph Staleknight » 1 month ago

Having watched the LP, I gotta say that it's probably for the best I never beat the game when I rented it back then. It had some neat ideas (like the concept of an overworld that actually had things to do other than selecting worlds, and that you could exit a world at any time without needing to pay for a flight), but the gimmicks towards the end make me feel like the devs were running out of time to finish the game and so cobbled together some random junk that didn't really give the player anything satisfying to chew on. I say that especially in light of the secret ending and its lead-up.

Honestly, if I were Rare back then, I'd have told the team that the holiday rush was overrated and I wouldn't have minded if the game were polished up more if it meant delaying it to, say, March 1997. That way, they probably would've spaced the gimmick levels out more evenly and made a more epic true final boss level. Still, I do appreciate that they had some good ideas and wish they acted more on those instead of arbitrary gimmicks.

Also, has anyone figured out whatever naming gimmick the videos had? I know someone on TVTropes claimed it was "[type of bear] [type of swimming stroke]", but by "stone head" I knew that wasn't the case despite the prevalence of "bear" terms and epithets.
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Re: Donkey Kong Country 3 - Welcome to Kanada!

Postby KobaBeach » 1 month ago

i like to pretend they're all zangief's secret moves that he can't do in a fair match lest he summons sheng long from the netherrealm
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Re: Donkey Kong Country 3 - Welcome to Kanada!

Postby FPzero » 1 month ago

Just blitzed through both the DKC2 and 3 LPs to get here. I still love this game. It's the one I remember most fondly playing it as a 6 or 7 year old. I know DKC2 is the objectively better game but I can't help but love 3.

I also feel like it's an extremely good design doc for gimmick and iterative design, the kind of thing that Nintendo would come to use more and more in their main platformers. Gimmicks often open up showing the level's gimmick in relatively safe conditions, and then building more and more complex situations with the gimmick until you get to a "final test" sort of situation by the end of a level.

That said, it could probably do with a few more straight platforming levels like were seen back in worlds 1 and 2, and it would also benefit more if the level gimmicks ever had a chance to be used together. So many gimmick ideas are introduced in a single level and never seen again. Rocket and Tracker Barrels, fireball owls, tons of other enemy types... And it wasn't until I read a comment in here that I realized how true it is that most level types only use a select few enemies. The basic green kremling is barely used, where in DKC1 and 2 he's used all over the place. The game is a little too concerned with presenting a unique challenge every time you start a new level that it rarely takes what's already presented and re-uses it. A bit of a shame, because there's a ton of interesting stuff in here.

In spite of its shortcomings I still love the game. I'm happy to see you have played it, and I'm not disappointed or anything that the game didn't click with you all these years later. DKC2 is just a really hard game to beat.


What I am curious about though, is if there could be the possibility of DKC Returns and DKC Tropical Freeze in the far future? I have no idea if raocow has played either of them, but if he hasn't it would be a lot of fun to see his first impressions of them both, assuming the technical setup required can be worked out.

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Re: Donkey Kong Country 3 - Welcome to Kanada!

Postby ano0maly » 1 month ago

In the first K. Rool fight at Kastle Kaos, I don't know if raocow grasped how the first phase was supposed to work: you duck under him so that he passes you, and you try to position yourself and the barrel so that after he passes by you have more time to hit him before he turns toward you again. This game doesn't involve ducking that often, and it makes you use it here.

The video comments on Youtube stated this but the change in the levels is that as Krematoa turned red, so did the levels. And this is what the Banana Bird Queen would say when you first meet her, if you didn't have all the birds yet:




Now here's my verdict on the DKC trilogy:

Personally I find 1 to be the most nostalgic, in a way. It's because the first game has a distinct style with this cozy, homey feeling - down to the fact that the first world is Donkey Kong's home surroundings and you start the game next to DK's treehouse and banana hoard. The other two games feel more like adventures in foreign environments. Both styles are good; they're just two different flavors I like. The first DKC is like pure, raw form of fun that wasn't too tampered with by modifications, including improvements introduced in the other games.

I would say 2 is just more exciting and better at making you want to keep playing, and raocow's description of 3 lacking a "spark" is a good way to describe it. Just looking at interaction with Kiddy (water bouncing, Dixie riding on rolling Kiddy), the third game has mechanics that look interesting when you first find out about them, but they're not utilized to their potential. The team throw moves differ based on who's throwing who, but the application of the differences is limited. In DKC2 the kongs were symmetric in terms of team throws, and the game made great use of this addition. I also miss Swanky's quizzes that were in the second game. The Sideshow in the third game is fun to play, but I really liked having a new quiz in each world having interesting trivia questions.

But 3 has very much appreciated quality-of-life improvements (anytime saving and world exiting), some very neat touches like a traversable overworld and a scary face visible on world maps at most boss levels, and a beautiful natural landscape and scenery. Overall, the whole trilogy is a good collection.
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Re: Donkey Kong Country 3 - Welcome to Kanada!

Postby Leet » 1 month ago

I can't force people to like the game but I gotta say it's a little frustrating when the reasons people dislike it are things that I can't really get a grasp on. Like I don't know what a "spark" is or why changing the enemy designs is bad. On reflection though I do think the level design is less solid than DKC2. Also, I think it would have been amazing if they actually hid secret levels around the world instead of just those caves, ESPECIALLY for when you get the airship. It could have been this whole extended postgame.
Well it is a decent hack but sometime its just too repetitif there no level that actually pop in your face and your like oh yeah that level they all ressemble themselves and just monster along the way.
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Re: Donkey Kong Country 3 - Unbelievable type of a situation

Postby raocow » 1 month ago

the naming gimmick was

moves from Kuma, the bear from Tekken. Specifically the moves where selected from the Tekken Tag Tournament 2 itiration.

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Re: Donkey Kong Country 3 - Unbelievable type of a situation

Postby YelseyKing » 1 month ago

raocow wrote: the naming gimmick was

moves from Kuma, the bear from Tekken. Specifically the moves where selected from the Tekken Tag Tournament 2 itiration.

Man, you come up with some ridiculously obscure naming gimmicks. I approve. :P
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