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COMING UP NEXT

this is the place where lps are being talked about. it's important to talk about games being played on the internet.
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Voltgloss
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Re: COMING UP NEXT

Postby Voltgloss » 3 months ago

SAJewers wrote:
YelseyKing wrote: you make it sound abundantly clear that at least some of the "patapons" think they're too good to interact with the rest of us.
It's not that, rather, patapons in the spotzone consider it a much more welcoming place than the talkhaus, and take issue with some of the people and things here.

At least, that's the way i'm interpreting things from a discussion 3 months ago regarding something that happened here (that I really don't want to get into at all because it affected someone negatively)
You mean some Patreon supporters consider the Discord more welcoming than the talkhaus, and some Patreon supporters take issue with stuff here. Right? Not all Patreon supporters.

Because I too am a Patreon supporter, who uses the Discord (intermittently; see below), and literally have no idea what you are talking about.

I am not disputing that some Patreon supporters may feel the way you describe. I never saw the discussion you mention nor do I know what channel it was in or what it was about. I don't use all of the Discord channels; I only review a few, and only intermittently. I still spend the second-largest chunk of my raocow-related time on the Talkhaus (the largest chunk watching his videos).

In other words, I literally do use the Discord as "an extension of the talkhaus for patreons." I have never gotten the sense that the Discord is "a place separate from the talkhaus." I've never seen the sentiments SAJewers describes. Again, I'm sure some feel that way. But not all. And it is eminently possible for a Patreon supporter to use the Discord as an extension of the Talkhaus... because I do.
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Re: COMING UP NEXT

Postby Leet » 3 months ago

yeah idk, if i take sajewers at his word there i'd view it as "we SHOULDN'T join raocow's patreon because we'd be intruding on someones privacy since we're problematic talkhaus users". whether you shake this one way or the other something's wrong here.
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Well it is a decent hack but sometime its just too repetitif there no level that actually pop in your face and your like oh yeah that level they all ressemble themselves and just monster along the way.
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Re: COMING UP NEXT

Postby SAJewers » 3 months ago

Voltgloss wrote:
SAJewers wrote:
YelseyKing wrote: you make it sound abundantly clear that at least some of the "patapons" think they're too good to interact with the rest of us.
It's not that, rather, patapons in the spotzone consider it a much more welcoming place than the talkhaus, and take issue with some of the people and things here.

At least, that's the way i'm interpreting things from a discussion 3 months ago regarding something that happened here (that I really don't want to get into at all because it affected someone negatively)
You mean some Patreon supporters consider the Discord more welcoming than the talkhaus, and some Patreon supporters take issue with stuff here. Right? Not all Patreon supporters.
Oh yeah, some, not all; maybe I wasn't clear on that.
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Re: COMING UP NEXT

Postby raekuul » 3 months ago

SAJewers wrote:
YelseyKing wrote: you make it sound abundantly clear that at least some of the "patapons" think they're too good to interact with the rest of us.
[T]here are people who are not or longer part of talkhaus and have no desire to be, and previous interactions were not positive, which has largely ended up leaving the spotzone as a place separate from the talkhaus, rather than an extension of the talkhaus for patreons. That's why i try not to post spotzone stuff here, not because i'm an eliteist, but because i want to respect people's spaces.
There is a significant difference between trying to keep the spotzone stuff separate from talkhaus - which I do agree with because both locations have their own drama and cross-pollination of drama would just hurt everybody - and using that as an excuse to outright exclude one group or the other from discussion, intentionally or otherwise.

Using the cited example...
Also, note that discussion on AtS has happened for months now in the patapon spotzone (maybe even a year), so any questions may have already been answered, or discussion already been had.
Whether this was the intention or not, this implies that non-spotzone talkhausers don't get their questions answered because they already got answered.

E: I'm not advocating "cross-post everything" but perhaps a digest version of anything that would affect both communities would be good? That way spotzone can discuss stuff in advance and when it becomes relevant talkhaus can still get what was discussed without feeling excluded (and without bringing in spotzone-exclusive drama).

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Re: COMING UP NEXT

Postby KobaBeach » 3 months ago

this is all because cishets are mad i'm open about my gayness because "people could get hurt that people are open about being queer" and like fuck off

i'm sorry i will not back down. if i'm making anyone "uncomfortable" by just being queer then fuck 'em

i have my human rights.

EDIT: also i want people to know that the same has happened to rena and that's why she left the discordhaus
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Re: COMING UP NEXT

Postby SAJewers » 3 months ago

raekuul wrote: Using the cited example...
Also, note that discussion on AtS has happened for months now in the patapon spotzone (maybe even a year), so any questions may have already been answered, or discussion already been had.
Whether this was the intention or not, this implies that non-spotzone talkhausers don't get their questions answered because they already got answered.

E: I'm not advocating "cross-post everything" but perhaps a digest version of anything that would affect both communities would be good? That way spotzone can discuss stuff in advance and when it becomes relevant talkhaus can still get what was discussed without feeling excluded (and without bringing in spotzone-exclusive drama).
Ah, that was not my intent. My intent there was simply to note that people in the spotzone had known about this for a while, and questions had been asked there regarding certain games, so any talkhaus users on the spotzone who knew about this already would be able to answer. it was more "people discussed this with raocow, any obvious or simple questions were probably already brought up"

I do agree with your edit, though it depends on what boundaries need to be set (as an example, the impression I had with AtS discussion at the time was that raocow wanted it to be left to the spotzone-only until he announced it himself).

Really, my concern is accidentally making something public that is not supposed to be made public. I don't mind crossposting something raocow said, I just don't want to post anything that supposed to not leave the spotzone.
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Re: COMING UP NEXT

Postby raekuul » 3 months ago

SAJewers wrote: Ah, that was not my intent. My intent there was simply to note that people in the spotzone had known about this for a while, and questions had been asked there regarding certain games, so any talkhaus users on the spotzone who knew about this already would be able to answer. it was more "people discussed this with raocow, any obvious or simple questions were probably already brought up"
We don't inherently know who is on spotzone and who isn't, so we can't direct our questions to the people who have the answers. This ends up diffusing the responsibility for answering the simple questions.

Furthermore, "obvious" questions should have a FAQ segment dedicated to them. Otherwise they're not obvious questions.
I do agree with your edit, though it depends on what boundaries need to be set (as an example, the impression I had with AtS discussion at the time was that raocow wanted it to be left to the spotzone-only until he announced it himself)
Other bifurcated communities that I'm part of generally use a rule of "when the public release happens, start sharing information." The issue is a little cloudier here both due to the drama issue as well as due to this being the only community I'm part of where the bifurcation is due to financial contributions, but it should still work well this way. As soon as we have someone who can see both sides and is willing to create the Prediscussion Digest.

E: moved this to a new post because we keep playing Edit Tag.
Last edited by raekuul on 23 Aug 2019, 00:50, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: COMING UP NEXT

Postby SAJewers » 3 months ago

I think I'm doing a bad job explaining myself again. I mean "If someone not raocow answers a question, this is why we know"

Second point I can see working, but I don't wasnt to speak for raocow or anyone else.
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Re: COMING UP NEXT

Postby raekuul » 3 months ago

SAJewers wrote:I think I'm doing a bad job explaining myself again. I mean "If someone not raocow answers a question, this is why we know"

Second point I can see working, but I don't wasnt to speak for raocow or anyone else.
It doesn't have to be you specifically. It just has to be someone who participates on spotzone that is willing to summarize the discussion and/or crosspost whatever questions/answers got bandied around. Which is what I'm asking for when I say Prediscussion Digest.

And either way, if raocow answered it on spotzone then it's still word of raocow.
SAJewers wrote: Really, my concern is accidentally making something public that is not supposed to be made public. I don't mind crossposting something raocow said, I just don't want to post anything that supposed to not leave the spotzone.
Spotzone members have the advantage of knowing in advance roughly when stuff is going to drop, so you or whoever gets the job can compose and clean and validate a hypothetical Prediscussion Digest in advance.

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Re: COMING UP NEXT

Postby SAJewers » 3 months ago

raekuul wrote:
SAJewers wrote: Really, my concern is accidentally making something public that is not supposed to be made public. I don't mind crossposting something raocow said, I just don't want to post anything that supposed to not leave the spotzone.
Spotzone members have the advantage of knowing in advance roughly when stuff is going to drop, so you or whoever gets the job can compose and clean and validate a hypothetical Prediscussion Digest in advance.
Sorry, I'm being bad at saying stuff/talking about something different again.

My concern is that I don't want to hurt someone because they put something in the spotzone expecting it to never leave there. Reposting what raocow said in the spotzone regarding something that's public knowledge I have no issue with (as sometimes raocow will throw out things in the spotzone to test the waters, and is not 100% definitive, as was mentioned in the spotzone).
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Re: COMING UP NEXT

Postby raocow » 3 months ago

I mean I get what he means, without quoting verbatim if someone knows about something dropping they can feel free to summarize

alright, let me take this as opportunity to say to anyone who visits the spotzone, it's okay to repeat anything I say in there here, because I tend to be absent minded and not always clear. Like it's cool. If it's just testing waters or something I usually try to make it clear.

Also for the record it goes both ways, sometimes I post something here and I forget to post it in spotzone :(
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Re: COMING UP NEXT

Postby ano0maly » 3 months ago

SAJewers wrote: My concern is that I don't want to hurt someone because they put something in the spotzone expecting it to never leave there. Reposting what raocow said in the spotzone regarding something that's public knowledge I have no issue with (as sometimes raocow will throw out things in the spotzone to test the waters, and is not 100% definitive, as was mentioned in the spotzone).
I really don't get why this is a big issue. I understand trying your best to not outsource premium content for patrons, like art commissions or something, but this is just conversation. What's so secretive?

Different places have different conversations, and one place might have chatted about something that hasn't been brought up yet at the time in another place. That's just natural. And when you feel it's best to borrow another's words, you can share conversation from another place and cite it. If you state things in one place on the Internet of course there's a chance it can get disseminated to another place through people that are in both. Of course, it's not desirable to import or export drama needlessly.



Also a minor tangent, but I feel that instead of using the label "Discordhaus" we should identify the subject clearly as Patreon server or talkhaus server. When I head Discordhaus I think of the one pinned here in the gazebo. I'm not going to say "we claimed this name first so you can't steal it" because technically this is Discordhaus 2.0 (there was an older one made I think by Mabel, which is no longer up; it was created to test the waters when Discord was still in early development and rusty), and it would be hypocritical to say so. But we would do well to avoid confusion with clear identification and not have to clash over which is the true "haus".
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SAJewers
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Re: COMING UP NEXT

Postby SAJewers » 3 months ago

ano0maly wrote:
SAJewers wrote: My concern is that I don't want to hurt someone because they put something in the spotzone expecting it to never leave there. Reposting what raocow said in the spotzone regarding something that's public knowledge I have no issue with (as sometimes raocow will throw out things in the spotzone to test the waters, and is not 100% definitive, as was mentioned in the spotzone).
I really don't get why this is a big issue. I understand trying your best to not outsource premium content for patrons, like art commissions or something, but this is just conversation. What's so secretive?

Different places have different conversations, and one place might have chatted about something that hasn't been brought up yet at the time in another place. That's just natural. And when you feel it's best to borrow another's words, you can share conversation from another place and cite it. If you state things in one place on the Internet of course there's a chance it can get disseminated to another place through people that are in both. Of course, it's not desirable to import or export drama needlessly.



Also a minor tangent, but I feel that instead of using the label "Discordhaus" we should identify the subject clearly as Patreon server or talkhaus server. When I head Discordhaus I think of the one pinned here in the gazebo. I'm not going to say "we claimed this name first so you can't steal it" because technically this is Discordhaus 2.0 (there was an older one made I think by Mabel, which is no longer up; it was created to test the waters when Discord was still in early development and rusty), and it would be hypocritical to say so. But we would do well to avoid confusion with clear identification and not have to clash over which is the true "haus".
It's probably more just a "me" issue then as I tend to personally feel really terrible if i end up doing something that someone takes negatively; i'd rather be safe and get their permission first.

second thing is that the patreon-only dfiscord is known as the "patapon spotzone" and that's probably what it should be known here.

EDIT:
raocow wrote: it's okay to repeat anything I say in there here
ok then
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Re: COMING UP NEXT

Postby ano0maly » 3 months ago

It was here when there was a name mixup and I wasn't quite sure which server KobaBeach was referring to today either.
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Re: COMING UP NEXT

Postby Kilgamayan » 3 months ago

ano0maly wrote: It was here when there was a name mixup and I wasn't quite sure which server KobaBeach was referring to today either.
It's funny this should get linked, because one of the things I specifically made sure to do before posting my original bitchpost was to check to see if an All the Sonics game list was provided anywhere obvious on this forum. I couldn't find it with a quick glance at the All the Sonics thread or at this thread, so either it's somewhere else that's obvious to everyone but me, or it's not anywhere other than behind the paywall. Even now, before posting this post, I checked those places again, and still nothing. So either I'm blind, or no one on the other side of the paywall with access to the game list has thought it worth showing us the game list, for ??? reasons.

I'd appreciate confirmation one way or the other on this before I spend energy getting irritated at what feels like the most obvious example of information-withholding.

EDIT: Also I'm sure this will come across as super pissy, and I have no way to prove it anyway, but if there really is a non-trivial portion of the Patreon community that is specifically trying to keep themselves separate from this place due to distaste for this place and its users, then I'm probably going to stop making financial considerations for eventually becoming a Patreon myself because I don't particularly want to associate with such people.
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Re: COMING UP NEXT

Postby The Hero Hartmut » 3 months ago

Kilgamayan wrote: EDIT: Also I'm sure this will come across as super pissy, and I have no way to prove it anyway, but if there really is a non-trivial portion of the Patreon community that is specifically trying to keep themselves separate from this place due to distaste for this place and its users, then I'm probably going to stop making financial considerations for eventually becoming a Patreon myself because I don't particularly want to associate with such people.
For whatever it's worth, I'm a Patreon donator, and I don't use the Discord either. Like, I'm signed up on it, but I usually forget that it's a thing. In fact, I'm not all that active here, either. I just feel that raocow's been enough of a presence in my life over the past few years that I want to help him out a little. The other benefits don't mean all that much to me personally, but that's just me.

My point is that I don't think that you should let this whole thing discourage you from contributing if you were otherwise planning to.

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Re: COMING UP NEXT

Postby kitikami » 3 months ago

I don't think there is any official list for All the Sonics. The one in the spotzone is just someone going through a list of Sonic games and making their best guesses at which ones fit raocow's conditions from the Project Thesis video. You can get essentially the same info from Wikipedia.
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Re: COMING UP NEXT

Postby BobisOnlyBob » 3 months ago

The Hero Hartmut wrote: For whatever it's worth, I'm a Patreon donator, and I don't use the Discord either. Like, I'm signed up on it, but I usually forget that it's a thing. In fact, I'm not all that active here, either. I just feel that raocow's been enough of a presence in my life over the past few years that I want to help him out a little. The other benefits don't mean all that much to me personally, but that's just me.

My point is that I don't think that you should let this whole thing discourage you from contributing if you were otherwise planning to.
Just wanted to echo this sentiment. I have no idea what the patapon is up to most ever. I spend most of my Discord time in the official Copy Kitty (Nuclear Strawberry) server, but my money goes to raocow in order to support him, legitimize me blocking his youtube adverts, and so I can nag him once a year to play Astro Boy: Omega Factor. The community is irrelevant to my support.
BOB is an acronym for BOB is Only BOB etc.

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Re: COMING UP NEXT

Postby Super Maks 64 » 3 months ago

The closest thing to an AtS list is a wip list by raocow here, although he has stated that he's not going to post the final list since he wants to have at least some surprises in there.

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Re: COMING UP NEXT

Postby SAJewers » 3 months ago

Kilgamayan wrote: EDIT: Also I'm sure this will come across as super pissy, and I have no way to prove it anyway, but if there really is a non-trivial portion of the Patreon community that is specifically trying to keep themselves separate from this place due to distaste for this place and its users, then I'm probably going to stop making financial considerations for eventually becoming a Patreon myself because I don't particularly want to associate with such people.
It's moreso people hating all the drama and incessant shitting/hate-boners on certain people that goes on here that they wish to not be a part of. The people in the spotzone are caring, considerate people (or at least try to be), who want to try to avoid any and all drama and negativity if possible in there. Where there are a couple that seemingly don't want anything to do with talkhaus, it's mostly people who are/were part of talkhaus or never bothered to join talkhaus (and are fine with it on the whole) and want to keep the drama and negativity out. (an example looking back would be someone calling the hate over minimal/maximal from LCJ "aggressive and disgusting", which eventually morphed into a discussion on how mario doomsday didn't deserve most of the hate people gave it)
kitikami wrote: I don't think there is any official list for All the Sonics. The one in the spotzone is just someone going through a list of Sonic games and making their best guesses at which ones fit raocow's conditions from the Project Thesis video. You can get essentially the same info from Wikipedia.
you mean this? that was made by someone before raocow firmly decided on doing AtS, and was more of"this is what you'd be getting into"

I actually asked raocow yesterday if he was ever gonna post an entire list, and he said he wouldn't, so all we have is this and the one supermaks posted, which was largely posted as "did i miss anything/get any dates wrong?"
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Re: COMING UP NEXT

Postby raocow » 3 months ago

yeah to repeat other people, there won't be a final released list for AtS because I think keeping some surprises is extremely worth it.
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Re: COMING UP NEXT

Postby ano0maly » 3 months ago

SAJewers wrote: It's moreso people hating all the drama and incessant shitting/hate-boners on certain people that goes on here that they wish to not be a part of. The people in the spotzone are caring, considerate people (or at least try to be), who want to try to avoid any and all drama and negativity if possible in there. Where there are a couple that seemingly don't want anything to do with talkhaus, it's mostly people who are/were part of talkhaus or never bothered to join talkhaus (and are fine with it on the whole) and want to keep the drama and negativity out. (an example looking back would be someone calling the hate over minimal/maximal from LCJ "aggressive and disgusting", which eventually morphed into a discussion on how mario doomsday didn't deserve most of the hate people gave it)
This is what bugs me about your whole description. I am aware of past talkhaus drama and arguments, but I don't think those incidents should characterize the forums as a whole. Moreover, usually they're at most at a typical level for a place on the Internet, not that that should condone the incidents. Honestly they've decreased in frequency since the peak a few years ago.

Different people may personally feel differently about web communities, that's understandable. I'm sure there are some who might feel that the spotzone community turns them off, too. But what I don't like is characterizing spotzone as objectively better than the forums (and people at the official talkhaus server might feel like it's being thrown under a bus along the way). I don't think it's right to state that spotzone as a group wants to disassociate with talkhaus, as if people in spotzone are not allowed to have it otherwise, when one of those people (Voltgloss) disputed your notion.
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Re: COMING UP NEXT

Postby SAJewers » 3 months ago

I'm not trying to say it's objectively better, apologies if you took it that way. As someone else (who does post on talkhaus, so apologies for having to bring you into this) put it a few months ago, the spotzone and discordhaus have become their own splinter communities.
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Re: COMING UP NEXT

Postby WhimWidget » 3 months ago

Honestly I think this conversation overall got confused with a hypothetical concern to a problem (users potentially not wanting things they've said, screen-capped/quoted) that is different to the context the conversation started referring to (discussing information concerning what raocow has decided). The former is honestly concerns communities on the internet generally, not just spotzone but the problem was it was associated as a reason for a community specific thing, which was incorrect.

I like ano0maly's summary of communities and sharing information:
ano0maly wrote: Different places have different conversations, and one place might have chatted about something that hasn't been brought up yet at the time in another place. That's just natural. And when you feel it's best to borrow another's words, you can share conversation from another place and cite it. If you state things in one place on the Internet of course there's a chance it can get disseminated to another place through people that are in both. Of course, it's not desirable to import or export drama needlessly.
The concern then stems from people not wanting stuff they've said to be shared in certain places for various reasons, similar incredibly broadto made up examples (because the context is broad): there being the potential of people not wanting to have drama from talkhaus being linked by thread, or a Twitter message strawmanned to another person's Twitter. This is a general thing that applies to every community though, but it has been brought up in a conversation about spotzone to talkhaus which has given a horrible vibe. While this was brought up to reason why sharing images is avoided, phrasing that people generally join and leave communities for varying personal reasons, and associating potential individual's specific reasons to leave a community generally (talkhaus to spotzone in this instance) has also confused things in this converstation.

The direction this conversation took through how replies were phrased and brought up to the wrong questions, makes it sound like there's a bunch of intentionally super secret stuff commonly talked about in spotzone. Also makes it sound like there's a huge wall between the two communities in communicating and sharing. It also makes it sound like there's a lot of potentially defamatory gossip about communities within the place, but that's something that's actively pointed out to be a no-go.


To be honest, I think sharing chat and interesting things between the place commonly happens anyway for the most part. A lot of users there overlap between the different communities, but it's just there's no indication of what and who comes from where unless you're in both.
Exceptions would obviously be, jokes, games and such that are specific to chat in a spotzone channel, ideas people just want to run by a spotzone channel, an occasional snippits of surprises raocow has in mind run by a few people for clarification, or idle trading of thoughts or responses for things still yet to be decided/jokes turning into actual things.
Some will choose to drop a joke between one of raocow's Youtube comment section, Talkhaus, Discordhaus or spotzone though, then choose to share it within another...or not so it doesn't look like they're saying, "hey everyone, look at this funny I made!". Alternatively, you have people stick to one, because that's the community they've chosen.
There really aren't as many patreon only benefits as I think are thought to be. People talk, ask questions and interesting things can sometimes pop up - similar to other place, but a quick place to talk on.


I think a few problems also stem from assumptions of it being a patreon only place, as a patreon only place, rather than just another community.
In that case, I guess the best thing moving forwards would be to be more explicit about stuff coming from there, and also perhaps be more free to share jokes and such to the gazeebo. Also, if in doubt, to ask if something can be forwarded.
I think the biggest controversial thing for this context has been the Sonic list, but that has already been explained in this thread, plus there are still a few surprises here and there only raocow knows. I think people have agreed that's fine in this thread.


However, another problem and the reason this conversation was brought to begin with is, conversations and a few other things dropped in talkhaus late and being discussed like, "we already discussed x" without the context it happened in, or was brought up from, makes it sound like lots of people are actively excluded from important talk - which is a problem.
It ends up teasing content that was talked elsewhere and, ends up sounding like something big they didn't know about was debated/decided that they don't get a say in, when often they could just be a single line response to a quip.

Ultimately, moving forwards maybe one fix for those would be to be more explicit about the source and context the conversation was brought up from, since the biggest concern is the place intentionally being secretive and not sharing anything. If we're more explicit about what comes from there, and open things up to chat that were just forgotten to be opened here when it's brought up, this should be less of a problem right?

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SAJewers
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Re: COMING UP NEXT

Postby SAJewers » 3 months ago

WhimWidget wrote: However, another problem and the reason this conversation was brought to begin with is, conversations and a few other things dropped in talkhaus late and being discussed like, "we already discussed x" without the context it happened in, or was brought up from, makes it sound like lots of people are actively excluded from important talk - which is a problem.
It ends up teasing content that was talked elsewhere and, ends up sounding like something big they didn't know about was debated/decided that they don't get a say in, when often they could just be a single line response to a quip.
I can't remember if this was already brought up or not, but technically this did happen with AtS, as raocow did imply at times that he didn't want anyone in the spotzone to spill the beans outside until he posted his first video. Though I guess to your point it was never important, just general discussion.

But yes, you are right, and i think that's largely what i've been trying to say.
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