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Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

this is the place where lps are being talked about. it's important to talk about games being played on the internet.
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ano0maly
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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby ano0maly » 5 months ago

If you want to talk about loaded statements you should first talk about the accusations towards "you all". Or the sudden aggressive response instead of addressing my points. Or the clear refusal to reason with me when I was pleading to spek one-on-one.

And you're doing the same thing here. Putting words in my mouth, as if I'm advocating that we spoil whatever we want or treat raocow like TPP (I find Mandew's post more agreeable today than yesterday). No, what I'm saying is that spoiling and dictating are to be refrained from, but also that not all discussion is spoiling and dictating.
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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby WhimWidget » 5 months ago

In the discussion:

No-one intended to defended the backseating. Comments that were perceived to do so were often trying to identify what the key problems were and their context to zone in on those and relate it using examples of exceptions and try to get those to work.

No-one intended to lump it as everyone was causing the issue either or comments should stop altogether. Comments that were perceived to do so were often trying to state that there is indeed an issue that is taking a toll from the backseating happening generally and it needs to be addressed.

Phrasing doesn't matter. What one is trying to convey does.

It's a series of misunderstandings where people actually agreed but assumed opposition.

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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby Leet » 5 months ago

ano0maly wrote: what I'm saying is that spoiling and dictating are to be refrained from, but also that not all discussion is spoiling and dictating.
While this is true, we aren't in a situation in which we need to be more lenient on backseating. The context of the discussion is raocow having to ask people to stop several times. Somebody going "but not everything is backseating!" comes off as arguing with the LPer in this context; we don't need someone to take a stand for the status quo.

I think your thing with people saying "you all" is a bit misplaced. In the posts you linked before, one of them was explicitly talking about the youtube comments, and was not blaming the thread at all, but you keep assuming people are. I think everyone else knows exactly who they're talking about (again, the youtube comments and Sebby), and it's your misunderstanding that leads you to think people aren't "pinpointing the problem".
Well it is a decent hack but sometime its just too repetitif there no level that actually pop in your face and your like oh yeah that level they all ressemble themselves and just monster along the way.
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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby ano0maly » 5 months ago

It looks like one of the instances (and yesterday's video intro) may have been mainly about Youtube comments. There has been another instance saying that raocow shouldn't read the thread though.

That been said, if the primary source of the problem is the comments, I wonder what we're doing here talking about the issue in the forums. Other than suggesting to raocow what measures to take, us discussing it here is not going to solve the culture on Youtube.
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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby Classtoise » 5 months ago

ano0maly wrote: If you want to talk about loaded statements you should first talk about the accusations towards "you all". Or the sudden aggressive response instead of addressing my points. Or the clear refusal to reason with me when I was pleading to spek one-on-one.
I'm not continuing this discussion if you're going to continue to do this again.
WhimWidget wrote: In the discussion:

No-one intended to defended the backseating. Comments that were perceived to do so were often trying to identify what the key problems were and their context to zone in on those and relate it using examples of exceptions and try to get those to work.

No-one intended to lump it as everyone was causing the issue either or comments should stop altogether. Comments that were perceived to do so were often trying to state that there is indeed an issue that is taking a toll from the backseating happening generally and it needs to be addressed.

Phrasing doesn't matter. What one is trying to convey does.

It's a series of misunderstandings where people actually agreed but assumed opposition.
I do want to point out, however, sebby did explicitly as "what happened to the us in Let's", after raocow told people to stop backseat gaming and everyone telling them (again) to stop backseat gaming. That seems a pretty explicit defends of backseat gaming, even if someone wants to pretty it up as "helping".

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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby Leet » 5 months ago

ano0maly wrote: That been said, if the primary source of the problem is the comments, I wonder what we're doing here talking about the issue in the forums. Other than suggesting to raocow what measures to take, us discussing it here is not going to solve the culture on Youtube.
Because it's a part of the Let's Play? It's a discussion thread for the Let's Play, and an unfortunately recurring part of the Let's Play is raocow saying "why did people tell me about this"/etc. Also Sebby.
Well it is a decent hack but sometime its just too repetitif there no level that actually pop in your face and your like oh yeah that level they all ressemble themselves and just monster along the way.
Blood Ghoul wrote:Sometimes it seems my blood spurts out in gobs, as if it were a fountain's pulsing sobs. I clearly hear it mutter as it goes yet cannot find the wound from which it flows. Before I met you, baby, I didn't know what I was missing.

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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby KobaBeach » 5 months ago

ano0maly wrote: That been said, if the primary source of the problem is the comments, I wonder what we're doing here talking about the issue in the forums. Other than suggesting to raocow what measures to take, us discussing it here is not going to solve the culture on Youtube.
Just because it happens in YouTube comments, doesn't mean it should happen here.
If what you're going to say is basically dictating how the LP should go or spoiling stuff for raocow in advance, you might as well Not.
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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby ano0maly » 5 months ago

Right, but I just felt that some of the things said sounded unfair to people that weren't trying to cause a problem. It's one thing to say a problem exists; it's another thing when it sounds like everything that people been doing was wrong, and you get yelled at for problems happening elsewhere.
Classtoise wrote:
ano0maly wrote: If you want to talk about loaded statements you should first talk about the accusations towards "you all". Or the sudden aggressive response instead of addressing my points. Or the clear refusal to reason with me when I was pleading to spek one-on-one.
I'm not continuing this discussion if you're going to continue to do this again.
Do what exactly? I'm not sure what you want me to say? I'm just expressing my grievance at how things got heated or how words were misrepresented.
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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby Leet » 5 months ago

Everybody but you knows they're talking about YT comments and Sebby
Well it is a decent hack but sometime its just too repetitif there no level that actually pop in your face and your like oh yeah that level they all ressemble themselves and just monster along the way.
Blood Ghoul wrote:Sometimes it seems my blood spurts out in gobs, as if it were a fountain's pulsing sobs. I clearly hear it mutter as it goes yet cannot find the wound from which it flows. Before I met you, baby, I didn't know what I was missing.

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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby Sebby19 » 5 months ago

How about you all (sorry ano0maly) just nail me to a cross already? Dig a ditch and put my body in there so you can continue kicking it, like you guys are doing now?
Try an empathy exercise and replace my name with yours. Feels ostracizing, right?

In before someone says: "It's because you spoil and backseat" You think I haven't already been told that, and tried to dial that back.
On the spoiler front, I've notice 3 or 4 of my posts were spoilered. Unlike last couple games, I didn't complain, since I read what was spoilered and silently figured 'Okay, that's fair. Went a bit too far there' (it helps the entire post wasn't blacked out, thanks). The one time I made a remark on it (I legit thought someone who hadn't played the game reported my lie), Leet and some others made the case about the surprise of fighting the main antagonist early. I'd never considered that would ever be a surprise. But fine, I conceded, and said as much.
On the backseating front, I know I've been giving strong suggestions to lead him to unlock the Bros. moves, since I feel he's missing out on a unique function of the game. But it's already halfway through the game, so be happy to know I gave up on that days ago. As for the stat load-out and buff up of POW, I'm more critiqing the why. raocow is being a troll, especially with statements like 'clearly I need more Attack'. I personally think the joke expired a long time ago.

I'm sick and tired of being the poster boy, the automatic desiginated first person you think about on this topic. Just because it's fashionable. Pick on someone else, and I'll try to enjoy watching raocow play a game I like, in peace.
Or just rename this thread the 'complain about Sebby19 topic'
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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby Sebby19 » 5 months ago

Or let me be evil, if that the label you want to stick on my tombstone.
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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby bbbrrr_it_cold » 5 months ago

Sebby19 wrote: Try an empathy exercise and replace my name with yours. Feels ostracizing, right?
And you should try one in regards to raocow's feelings when you literally tell him to shut up in the VB Warioland thread (for something wholly inconsequential), or continually and derisively chide his choice of level up stats without actually offering anything constructive on the matter. Or try one in regards to our feelings every time you act as though your own opinions supersede anyone else's on what constitutes a spoiler or back-seating, despite numerous people telling you to stop.

Like, I really don't mean to be rude...but I'm not sure I believe you're easing up on the backseating. Spoilers, sure (at times, at least). But acting as though raocow is playing the game "wrong" because he's doing it in a different manner than what you want and complaining about it at most every opportunity is NOT the definition of "dialing back." It doesn't matter if you think this is a joke that you don't get - the man is allowed to play a game in the manner he wants without you continually bemoaning his choices in the same manner, despite his choices actively working for him.
Remember what raocow said about wanting to make his own mistakes? That means you don't have to command him to change his Bro Moves level (or tell him how to do it, again and again, as though you think he couldn't possibly figure it out and the game couldn't let him know). It means you can just watch him and the game, discuss relevant things in the thread without telling him what to do, and not act as though that takes the "us" out of "let's play" or that wanting anything remotely like this means you just shouldn't play games on the internet for people.
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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby Leet » 5 months ago

Sebby19 wrote: Try an empathy exercise and replace my name with yours. Feels ostracizing, right?
You're right, if you replace the circumstance with a completely different one, it becomes different. Weird!

Yes, the spoilers and backseating thread keeps ending up about you, because nobody else is doing it anymore but you. You say to "pick on someone else", but that's a huge mischaracterization of the situation. There is nobody else making this a problem.
Well it is a decent hack but sometime its just too repetitif there no level that actually pop in your face and your like oh yeah that level they all ressemble themselves and just monster along the way.
Blood Ghoul wrote:Sometimes it seems my blood spurts out in gobs, as if it were a fountain's pulsing sobs. I clearly hear it mutter as it goes yet cannot find the wound from which it flows. Before I met you, baby, I didn't know what I was missing.

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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby Cyril » 5 months ago

Sebby19 wrote: I'm sick and tired of being the poster boy, the automatic desiginated first person you think about on this topic. Just because it's fashionable. Pick on someone else, and I'll try to enjoy watching raocow play a game I like, in peace.
Or just rename this thread the 'complain about Sebby19 topic'
how about you just

stop doing it

w o a h
i've honestly never played a video game in my life

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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby raocow » 5 months ago

I'm not sure why you think me picking pow all the time is a troll.

like it's legit working. it seems to be a legitimate strategy as far as I've experienced up to now.
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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby Alice » 5 months ago

Sebby19 wrote: Try an empathy exercise and replace my name with yours. Feels ostracizing, right?
Sure would. Which is why I would take steps to prevent it from continuing to happen rather than digging my heels in. There's a point you have to step back and go "I don't agree with them but we're never going to see eye to eye and I'm massively outnumbered here" and call it quits.

Unfortunately asking someone to put themselves in your shoes on a subject like this really doesn't work in this context. The problem is that the vast majority of us would have given up long ago so we wouldn't have ever ended up in this situation to begin with.
raocow wrote: I'm not sure why you think me picking pow all the time is a troll.

like it's legit working. it seems to be a legitimate strategy as far as I've experienced up to now.
Like I said to someone in the Superstar Saga thread, this isn't a Valdis Story situation where people's complaints could turn out to be valid. It really does seem to be a 100% valid strategy here.

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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby Arctangent » 5 months ago

Sebby19 wrote: I'm sick and tired of being the poster boy
then stop
Sebby19 wrote: Try an empathy exercise and replace my name with yours. Feels ostracizing, right?
well let's see, let me think of the times i've done what you've done repeatedly

there was that one time in the la-mulana thread where i tried to be coy. it got spoilered. so i didn't do it again

there ... oh, wait, no, i said it wrong, there were no times, only a time

well, gee, looks like this exercise has only lead to you becoming even more of an enigma! how strange

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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby YelseyKing » 5 months ago

Sebby, you have *no* idea just how lenient I and the rest of the mods have *been* with you.

Why does everyone single you out? Because, as everyone else here has said, you don't *listen*. To *anyone*. You don't listen to the other posters. You don't listen to the mods. You don't even listen to *raocow*. I don't know where you got the idea that being pedantic about the term "Let's" in "Let's Play" gives you a blank check to dictate raocow's actions like he's a puppet, and it's *our* "job" to "guide" him and make sure he's "playing a game correctly". If he's not playing the game the way *you* like, then *don't watch*, it's as simple as that.

And now trying to twist things around to your being the "victim" here. No, that's not how it works. "Put yourself in my shoes". That's a problem, because I don't see anyone else digging their heels in about "helping" as much as you do; in general, if people are told to stop, they *stop*. They don't go into tirades about how *they're* the *actual* victims here. And the fact that YT commenters are spoiling/backseating doesn't give *you* permission to do so as well; we have no control over the YT comments, but we *do* have control over what happens *here*.

So cut the crap, cut the victim complex, and maybe, just *maybe*, people will stop getting mad at you. What a thought, huh?
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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby Ditocoaf » 5 months ago

Sebby, I believe you when you say you're trying to dial it back. But the problem seems to be that since you don't agree that backseating is a problem, you're not very good at recognizing when you're backseating.


So give this a try: go a while without posting any help of any kind. That might sound draconian when you first read it -- but consider it an exercise, an experiment. At least try it temporarily, a month or two during an LP of a game you're familiar with. Just enjoy the show, react to fun moments that occurred, and talk about parts of the game that raocow's already discovered.

For this to work, you have to pay attention -- before you post, stop and honestly ask yourself, "am I trying to guide the LP?" and if the answer is yes, don't post that. See how it turns out for you.


(Personally I edit my own posts reflexively on all forums, and delete as many posts halfway through writing them as I actually submit, deciding that whatever I'm writing isn't actually worth saying.)

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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby WhimWidget » 5 months ago

I mean, the dude already said he'd made the decision to stop giving suggestions for this LP.
He even posted retrospectively on each of those errors from this lp and how he agreed with the corrections, stated he'd refrain continuing some, or stated how he made them.

Plus raocow's video comment that instigated this discussion was stated elsewhere by him to be on the peristent Youtube comments and not Sebby.
Problem is, his name is attatched to the problem, even if it is, or isn't him.
And even were he from now on to succeed at not backseat, spoil or outright stops posting, the next time this issue comes up at least, his name will be there as the first suspect in discussion.
It's a nasty feeling for one to make an effort to change, or to progress from a problem, only for people to refer to past results, and en-masse. Or for an error they perceived incorrectly as a correct alternative in the same theme to be phrased as never listening.
I think that was what he was trying to convey at least.

In the discussion prior to this, I feel the dude did try to bring into discussion what people feel can or can't be considered good or bad community interaction with the LP (probably the best way talk it through with him is through 2-way discussion), then hopefully get raocow's thoughts (the one all of this actually concerns), and it was patially discussed.
It's also considered an attempt to defend backseating through rhetoric, since part of it was use of words to bring up discussion to lead to talking about backseating, but it didn't appear one directional especially with him asking to hear people's thoughts - which differentiates someone talking to defend or makes excuses and someone talking to come to an understanding of what people think.
(The are 2 comments following his "What happened to the Let's" where he redirects the question to what he's looking for, outlining thoughts motives. Both those comments contained pushes towards asking raocow's thoughts. The question was preceeded with "I know I'm the wrong person be asking, but deep question time:" meaning he was aware of his reputation and risks asking the question; it wasn't sass)
As Leet said, this conversation following an incident was ill-timed.



Sebby, as Alice and Ditocoaf said and you probably figured. For subsequent playthroughs:
I don't think it's really negotiable whether the difference is an active peristent series of tiny comments telling raocow what to do that are directing and stating the obvious like some youtube comments, or subtley hinting a super rare easter egg like Tota's song raocow would genuinely like to hear about; I don't think you're really allowed to take the initiative to inform. I don't think it's negotiable at this point, or nothing will improve.

Unfortunately asking if there's any possible context you can act, will likely not yield anything beyond being told to steer clear of the subject. At the very least when the rules are set, if something really does manage to pop up outside the context of the rules, you could ask others thoughts in hidden text on if they feel raocow should hear something to get a collective opinion, before people decide or decide not to ask him if he'd like to hear it, but I feel it may be better for you to steer clear of trying even that at this point. The key thing is never try to take the initiative on the matter, especially if rules are outlined which means a general concensus has been reached.

Just keep watching and then posting retrospectively to what happens and is closed off in the LPs - as you've improved a bit at doing at least.
Ditocoaf wrote:For this to work, you have to pay attention - before you post, stop and honestly ask yourself, "am I trying to guide the LP?" and if the answer is yes, don't post that. See how it turns out for you.

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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby ano0maly » 5 months ago

I guess what made me upset was how this needlessly escalated, partly because of mischaracterizing words. We should avoid the witch-hunt mentality of "You dare disagree with this post? You must think spoiling is an unfettered right and you don't care about the player!" when people just want to state a 'to be fair' comment or disagree about some specific technicality.

I commend WhimWidget for actually trying to bring the community towards agreement instead of trying to divide people in areas where they weren't actually disagreeing.

Having said that, I think we could dial down on the usage of 'you' in LP discussion posts - 'you' referring to raocow. We can talk about the contents of the game, but try to avoid turning it into a command, unless there's something really critical to the LP that needs to be recommended.

Going back to Hoohoo Mountain for a few more beans is not critical.



I wouldn't mind Sebby following Ditocoaf's suggestion so that he has an opportunity to cool off from this for a while. For the rest of us, the above is what I propose.
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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby Arctangent » 5 months ago

WhimWidget wrote: it wasn't sass
y'know this reminds me that i wanted to touch on something you said before but got distracted:
WhimWidget wrote: Phrasing doesn't matter. What one is trying to convey does.
thus, anyone here could chain together slur after slur after slur, as long as the intent of what they're getting at isn't malicious?

this is blatantly ridiculous statement. of course phrasing matters. it's not just some useless formality we bother with for tradition's sake, it's the basis of our primary method of communication with one another. we're not a telepathic species. we can't read the flashes of electricity in each other's brains and then instantly know what they're thinking. we do not derive others' words from their intent, but their intent from their words

and it matters even moreso with communication through text. tone, body language, mood, the roles of all of that in our communication have to be shouldered by the words, alone. granted, we have things like text styles and emotes to add extra dimensions to it all, but it's still taking symbols and divining meaning from them

even if sebby truly doesn't have any of the personality traits that people find distasteful and he really isn't lashing out with sarcasm and whining for getting negative feedback for his own repeated actions ... then the issue still entirely lies with him, because the way he decides to convey himself paints him as irritating and malignantly stubborn. it's clearly not just me that thinks so, either: there's a reason why his signature Sebby Posts so often pile up several posts in response, and it's certainly not because some malevolent puppet master has a grudge against him and gets people who otherwise wouldn't care to post against him or whatever

some sort of "well you should always give a person the benefit of the doubt when interpreting their words" response really shouldn't be even considered, but since i get the feeling it's coming anyway, let's just remember that doing so would've likely ended with some significant members here having to deal with obsessive stalkers because of not regarding blatant signs. not to mention the various bigots that would've made the community far less pleasant for lgbt+ peeps

bad people exist. and not only do they exist, they have a certain love of saying things that might be literally innocuous, but really mean "kill all jews" because of the context it they are said, and i don't think anyone wants to be agreeing with that

is sebby anything like those guys? no, not from what i know. but, honestly? between the tactics he appears to use to get what he wants and the utter inability to comprehend why what he does so often isn't well-received, i could definitely put him past the boundary of the "bad person." only far enough that he's regularly mildly to not-so-mildly unpleasant to be around and the ways he's unpleasant feel like they could develop in ways that drag him down even deeper, or might even be signs that he's hiding worse aspects of himself that're already there, but past the boundary nonetheless

maybe i'm giving him too little credit because he reminds me of people i know, maybe i'm giving him too much because all he does to me is irritate, mostly indirectly, and honestly the whole concept of a "boundary line of Bad Person" is so overly simplistic and silly, but it's like i said: intent comes from words. if you want to zoom out and get all meta, the words i'm choosing are aimed at both getting across that i think sebby's a nuisance and to help reinforce the ideas i said earlier, as my sense of linguistic flow is telling me that other peoples' senses of linguistic flow would appreciate an example of this, and thus i used a metaphor that simplifies morality to make it overall easier to understand, but could definitely come across as myself having a very simple sense of morality myself. which, i suppose, makes this part of the example too, given that by giving you all more words to read and use to work out my intent while elaborating on the mechanics of it all, it makes it clearer how without these "added" words there'd be further ambiguity not only at what i'm getting at but also my own character, and

my stream of consciousness-with-tweaks style of writing sure goes places, huh



anyway, with that all said, sure, sebby might be making quantifiable changes, but changes need time to stick. it's waaaaay too easy to look at what people think are your faults, "change" them for an interaction or two, then fall right back into the same ol' same ol' immediately after. so even if someone genuinely changes, nobody's gonna immediately appreciate it because a short time is not remotely long enough to really tell if someone's being genuine, or even if they've actually changed what was fundamentally causing the issues in the first place. i mean, that's not even factoring in that it usually takes continued and conscious efforts over time to really change an aspect of yourself you don't like

wounds need time to heal. picking at them will only make them worse

and, sure. i'm stubborn, too, i know what it's like to have wounds i want to pick at, or actually feel justified in doing so. but?

if you do pick at your wounds, be fully prepared for when your organs fall out because you tore away all the flesh keeping them in

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ano0maly
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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby ano0maly » 5 months ago

When WhimWidget said phrasing doesn't matter it does not mean racist slurs or personal attacks should be used, it means that what Sebby might have possibly been trying to convey was just a sentiment that while we shouldn't control raocow as some Twitch bot from Twitch Plays Pokemon, there is a level of participation and discussion in a "let's" play and not be just "shut up and watch him do everything", that if the latter was the case we wouldn't have this forum at all, and if he does need absolute silence he can record a bit in advance like warpio suggested. Either that or that's what he should have said and he screwed up.

Egad, I'm tired of this fighting. Don't try to pick a fight with someone that's doing their best specifically to wind down a fight. I want to go back to watching the game.
Last edited by ano0maly on 27 Jun 2019, 21:55, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby Leet » 5 months ago

Talking about something seriously is not a "fight".
Well it is a decent hack but sometime its just too repetitif there no level that actually pop in your face and your like oh yeah that level they all ressemble themselves and just monster along the way.
Blood Ghoul wrote:Sometimes it seems my blood spurts out in gobs, as if it were a fountain's pulsing sobs. I clearly hear it mutter as it goes yet cannot find the wound from which it flows. Before I met you, baby, I didn't know what I was missing.

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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby ano0maly » 5 months ago

No, but interpreting words of someone who's trying to mediate in the most combative way possible is.
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