Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga
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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - Luigi's Adventure
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Re: Mario & Luigi Superstar Saga
I find this is a very interesting topic that translates directly from core game design principles, and thusly I shall pitch in my opinion as well.CrappyBlueLuigi wrote: ↑4 years ago(gonna try to make it clear i'm not contesting your opinion here, either, i just like this topic and disagree with you)KobaBeach wrote: ↑4 years ago Prefacing this with a big bold, this is merely my opinion and I do not mean to dismiss anyone else's opinion or attack anyone with this post disclaimer. I don't want to cause another incident.
The low damage rates of Paper Mario (and from what I can tell, later Mario games) made me feel like my attacks didn't do much actually, seeing numbers go up is a big part of what makes JRPGs fun and cathartic to me.Rockythechao wrote: ↑4 years ago I really wish more RPGs kept their stat curves low, not only is it more accessible but it gives things like status effects and buffs that much more strategic weight.
Like equipping a new, powerful weapon or buffing up and all it does is make you do 5 damage instead of 3 to a boss (provided you do the timed hit nonsense in the former) feels pretty pathetic compared to doing 1000+ damage compared to ~650 as been going on with my FFIV playthrough.
this is a really interesting subject to me as someone interested in game design, because for me, the low numbers game in the paper mario games makes any jump in numbers really impactful. most rpgs have a level of power escalation and damage variance that makes the end numbers feel kinda meaningless. over the course of a boss fight, the difference between doing 1486-1523 damage a turn with this move and doing 1668-1749 damage with this other move is basically nil. maybe you save three or four turns approaching it the latter way, but if that costs extra resources, is it worth it? i dunno. is it? it's a question that really varies from scenario to scenario, but what i'm getting at is that it feels kinda nebulous.
because the paper mario games use such low, static numbers, it's very easy to tell when a strategy will be worthwhile in the long run, because the difference between doing 3 damage each turn and doing 5 damage each turn is massive and observably so. it puts into perspective what the numbers actually mean, because 8 damage vs. 9 damage is always going to be proportionally bigger than 3100 damage vs. 3900 damage.
(the math, for anyone curious)
that's just what it means for me, anyway. what's also interesting here--and, amazingly, relevant to this topic--is how mario & luigi fares in this subject.
[light spoilers for how superstar saga does player progression]
Both high numbers and low numbers have their purpose. As you have stated, low numbers have a much more pronounced strategic language to them -- 5 is a lot more than 3, and you can see it at a glance, forever and always. By comparison, say, 4000 vs 2400 doesn't have quite the same optimal clarity and ease for calculations. Higher numbers have a different purpose, and it is to allow for power to increment in the background. It is more fit for slow burns in stat growths, for RPGs that emphasize the journey and growth of "your" characters.
video games
Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - Luigi's Adventure
mGBA supports rumble when in Game Boy Player mode.xnamkcor wrote: ↑4 years agoAny GBA emulator support? Or would a certain someone need to emulate a GameCube to get those features?Blivsey wrote: ↑4 years agoThis game had functions exclusive to the GameCube's GameBoy Player. The title card is there to tell the player "hey buy our thing it has special features with this game!"xnamkcor wrote: Any word about that "GameBoy Player" title card? Is that an emulation thing?
Like most games with GBP features, most of the "support" is controller rumble.Aside from simple rumble during battle, rumble also goes off when you walk over a buried object.
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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - Super Mario Infinity: Mystery of the Magic Wand
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oogggghhhh games aren't art Fuck You Roger Ebert *kills him with a hamemr*
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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - Super Mario Infinity: Mystery of the Magic Wand
i.e. cranking it up to 11
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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - Super Mario Infinity: Mystery of the Magic Wand
why do all of your posts sound so cynical and jaded nowAshan wrote: I always assumed the super weeb RPGs used giant numbers like 4389 for damage because it's like "look how powerful you become in this game! You see those other games where they're dealing 100 damage per hit? Peanuts! In our game the characters are doing thousands of damage!"
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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - Super Mario Infinity: Mystery of the Magic Wand
Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - Super Mario Infinity: Mystery of the Magic Wand
Liking this LP so far. This game seems to be giving raocow plenty to work with in terms of commentary, which I kinda figured it would.
Re: Mario & Luigi Superstar Saga
I totally agree with all of this. Personally, I find games with large numbers really hard to wrap my mind around, and after a certain point it becomes hard to really get into the strategic element of the game due to that extra level of obfuscation.CrappyBlueLuigi wrote: ↑4 years agothis is a really interesting subject to me as someone interested in game design, because for me, the low numbers game in the paper mario games makes any jump in numbers really impactful. most rpgs have a level of power escalation and damage variance that makes the end numbers feel kinda meaningless. over the course of a boss fight, the difference between doing 1486-1523 damage a turn with this move and doing 1668-1749 damage with this other move is basically nil. maybe you save three or four turns approaching it the latter way, but if that costs extra resources, is it worth it? i dunno. is it? it's a question that really varies from scenario to scenario, but what i'm getting at is that it feels kinda nebulous.
because the paper mario games use such low, static numbers, it's very easy to tell when a strategy will be worthwhile in the long run, because the difference between doing 3 damage each turn and doing 5 damage each turn is massive and observably so. it puts into perspective what the numbers actually mean, because 8 damage vs. 9 damage is always going to be proportionally bigger than 3100 damage vs. 3900 damage.
It applies to non-RPGs as well. I think Hyper Light Drifter is a really good example of this. You've got five HP, and all attacks either do one or two damage. That's it. It's a really simple system, and that level of cohesion and straightforwardness is vital for a game that demands a lot of skill on the player's part, as well as making it feel very satisfying to play as well. Getting hit by a 2-damage attack in Hyper Light Drifter always feels like a big hit, because if you take three of those, you die- and it's entirely possible that you've already gotten hit at least once by a 1-damage attack before! The math is so simple that at any time you can look at your health and instantly assess how many hits you can take before dying. Furthermore,
it makes something like the clothes that give you one extra HP very valuable, and easy to understand the value of. You get one extra small hit, and if you do take that hit, you can still take two big hits after that without dying, unlike before where you'd only be able to take one. And the game also keeps things simple by making that the clothes' only function. It doesn't ask you to choose between the Clothes of +1270 Health and the clothes of +1025 Health But Also +25% Heat Resistance.
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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - Luigi's Adventure
Also, it's been echoed, but the A button is up and to the right of the B button. Hence Mario being up and to the right of Luigi in battle! If you wanna remap for the future, that's the way to go.
I mean, yeah, but... is it really worth it for such nothing
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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - Super Mario Infinity: Mystery of the Magic Wand
Also I'm not gonna address other posts made since KobaBeach's and CrappyBlueLuigi's because I've spent enough time typing this up already to rewrite at this point, so apologies if I'm retreading any ground here! I am interested in hearing other folks' thoughts on the subject though so I'll be sure to read those posts after I submit this one.
That's completely fair Koba, there certainly is a sense of tangible scale and growth that you're sacrificing when designing around lower stat thresholds. With that said, the appeal of higher thresholds does wear off for some players and when it no longer has that thrill they're usually left with the "meaningless numbers" problem Crep mentioned. Really, they did a great job of clarifying what I was getting at initially.
As for the
weakness system
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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - Super Mario Infinity: Mystery of the Magic Wand
i.e. from my latest attempt at an rpg:
elsewise you end up with, uh, gen 1 pokemon's battle system. plus you need to make sure battlers can actually obtain those skills, or else you end up with ... gen 2 and 3 pokemon's battle system
it's kinda incredible, thinking back to it, how much of pokemon's power creep was just composed of giving more pokemon the ability to take advantage of a fundamental part of its battle mechanics, huh
Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - Super Mario Infinity: Mystery of the Magic Wand
immersion RUINED
I am perfectly tasty...
AND I'LL STEAL YOUR SOUL!
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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - Super Mario Infinity: Mystery of the Magic Wand
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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - Super Mario Infinity: Mystery of the Magic Wand
I really feel like the art style in this game is another thing that was lost later in the series. It's most noticeable with Bowser who had a pretty fun and unique design in this game, and then later they just made him look like how Bowser looks in every other series. Even in the remake of this on 3DS, he just looks like modern Bowser, which is disappointing cause I thought the silly fatso Bowser design fits better for how he's kind of a joke in this game. Superstar Saga just has so much character that's really unique to it, and I wish Nintendo would do something like this again. Who knows, they took some risks with Odyssey so maybe we'll see them take another attempt at something more out there when this series makes its way onto Switch.
Because you're reading them as cynical and jadedKobaBeach wrote: ↑4 years agowhy do all of your posts sound so cynical and jaded nowAshan wrote: I always assumed the super weeb RPGs used giant numbers like 4389 for damage because it's like "look how powerful you become in this game! You see those other games where they're dealing 100 damage per hit? Peanuts! In our game the characters are doing thousands of damage!"
Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - Super Mario Infinity: Mystery of the Magic Wand
I'm glad we got past that little issue. However, there's another thing with leveling up that I found to be not balanced well when I played the game:
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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - Super Mario Infinity: Mystery of the Magic Wand
Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - Super Mario Infinity: Mystery of the Magic Wand
It's okay, Ashan is from Saskatchewan. It's pretty boring there
I wanna give kudos to those talking about the advantages of the low damage numbers in Paper Mario. If only to throw in my two cents, it's definitely easier to wrap my head around it when you have to consider enemy defences. Paper Mario is definitely a 'baby's first RPG', but I played that for the first time when I was a grown adult, and loved it. I can only imagine how good the sequel will be if I obtain it.
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As a response to how raocow feels about the Start and Select functions feel backwards, I agree on paper. Traditionally, Start=pause button, and Select=weird option button.
But on the GBA, the Start button is closer to the A and B buttons, hence why they made that desicion.
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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - Super Mario Infinity: Mystery of the Magic Wand
I just want add that everyone who's surprised to see this game, you obviously have not looked at the COMING UP NEXT topic.
-Future games do not allow you to put Luigi in front, so savor this freedom while you can.
-As for an enemy hitting the Bro in the back, this often happened to me early on my1st time, since the stomp hitbox I feel is smaller than the enemy itself. I eventually learned to counteract this by just jumping with both Bros at once.
Stardust Fields reminds me of Star Hill, both in Super Mario RPG and Paper Mario.
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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - Super Mario Infinity: Mystery of the Magic Wand
Looking back, Bowser in game really only started strongly resemble his artwork beginning with Sunshine, and Superstar Sage was only released a year later.Ashan wrote: I really feel like the art style in this game is another thing that was lost later in the series. It's most noticeable with Bowser who had a pretty fun and unique design in this game, and then later they just made him look like how Bowser looks in every other series.
Bowser's artwork for this game always struck me as a bit wonky.
I know I sound like an old man when I say this but I prefer the flat, thick outline look of the older M&L games compared to the newer ones.
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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - Super Mario Infinity: Mystery of the Magic Wand
The first goomba you fight is revealed to be Captain Goomba, the protagonist of the side mode.
Private Goomp, a reoccurring character in the later M&L games is also shown to be part of the airship's crew.
Bowser's minions consist of other races in the remake other than just koopas and goombas.
The remake shows that the koopalings were present on the airship
Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - Super Mario Infinity: Mystery of the Magic Wand
Meanwhile Blizzard, Western Company, has one of the few cases in modern gaming where boss hp became so high that it approached the 32-bit limit. Bosses like Immerseus and Garrosh in the Mist of Pandaria expansion get around this limit by restoring their hp over the course of the fight.Ashan wrote: ↑4 years ago I always assumed the super weeb RPGs used giant numbers like 4389 for damage because it's like "look how powerful you become in this game! You see those other games where they're dealing 100 damage per hit? Peanuts! In our game the characters are doing thousands of damage!"
The game has had numerous "stat squishes" where the game truncates all the numbers by a factor of 100-1000 or even more, in an effort to combat feelings of numbers feeling meaninglessly high.
Diablo 3 and Path of Exile are similarly absurd with the big numbers.
Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - Super Mario Infinity: Mystery of the Magic Wand
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Re: Mario & Mario: Superstar Saga - Super Mario Infinity: Mystery of the Magic Mario
I can't even imagine raocow playing something like that, though. Maybe just for the storyline? Even then Etna's basically like Luste Teuber but for like 90% of the game and not just like one level.
I suppose if he ever does a "let's watch cartoons together" a-la Megaman 8/X4, we could watch the awful anime adaptation
Probably best to just stick with this for now ever