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JUMP ½ - Half a jump is still a jump

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Re: JUMP mean(U(0,1)) - Spring cleaning? Wonderful. Just wonderful.

Postby Voltgloss » 1 month ago

Coming in late on this, but just wanted to note that I thought the final Bowser boss looked like a lot of fun. Yes, I am coming at this from the perspective of a middling Touhou player (by which I mean "I usually do well on Normal and mostly still get stomped on Hard").
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Re: JUMP mean(U(0,1)) - Spring cleaning? Wonderful. Just wonderful.

Postby The Doctor » 1 month ago

I'll also chime in with my love for the Bowser fight. I'm sorry that worldpeace had a terrible time working on it, but the effort was definitely worth it. So much fun to play.

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Re: JUMP mean(U(0,1)) - Spring cleaning? Wonderful. Just wonderful.

Postby Rockythechao » 1 month ago

In retrospect my assessment of the fight yesterday came across as rather lukewarm and nitpicky. To be clear, my personal preferences aside the Bowser fight here is still really cool! Worldpeace's hard work absolutely paid off and I hope the initial mixed reception wasn't discouraging :(
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Re: JUMP mean(U(0,1)) - Spring cleaning? Wonderful. Just wonderful.

Postby Peliptia » 1 month ago

ohwoah⚟ whatever technologies used for the map is just really awesome*₊˚ like it tracks the players spot and stuffs, wonder if it could ever be used to make a ▵metroidvania▵ mario world hack?

also, the level design that explains how the gimmick is going to work in ⟪low-g laboratory⟫ is like superb display of ▵△show dont tell philosophy△▵ and all thats. really really elegant way of explaining a kinda specific thingy there— and despite the frustration that rao seemed to have with the ⟪boiler room⟫ i think the set ups there are super super cool✧゚ especially that part where you bounce on a [𝅘𝅥] block to the left in order to clear away the baby rhinoceros fire door, and then bounce to the right❢ like thats just so so clever neat and it deserves to be mentioned☆

♡❤great job everyone⁛⁙
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Re: JUMP mean(U(0,1)) - Spring cleaning? Wonderful. Just wonderful.

Postby KobaBeach » 1 month ago

morsel/morceau wrote: perhaps because people are going to dismiss your work with 'it looks hard' or ' vip 5 was better'
that's not what i was saying but go off

jumphalf team is getting hella defensive of their work here and that's pretty dumb
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Re: JUMP mean(U(0,1)) - Spring cleaning? Wonderful. Just wonderful.

Postby LunarRainbowShyGuy » 1 month ago

After seeing raocow play through some rooms that I didn't I thought they looked interesting, so I decided to come back to play them (and also to fight that boss again since I love it so much). I think raocow makes a good point with how different people are good at different things. I might struggle with levels that require a high degree of precision, but throw an unusual gimmick at me and I'll probably have an easy time. Indeed, I had little trouble with the Low-G Laboratory (though admittedly I did watch raocow play part of it before deciding to play it myself), and I don't think I even got hit once in the Explosives Armory.

On my first time through here I took the route: Elevator, Sawmill, Explosives Armory... and then I took a break and forgot to save, so I had to play the first half again, this time going with Climbing Gym, Cold Storage, and Explosives Armory again. Overall I didn't find any of the rooms in the first half to be especially difficult; the vast majority of the difficulty I experienced here was in the second half.

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Re: JUMP mean(U(0,1)) - Spring cleaning? Wonderful. Just wonderful.

Postby Mandew » 1 month ago

KobaBeach wrote:
morsel/morceau wrote: perhaps because people are going to dismiss your work with 'it looks hard' or ' vip 5 was better'
that's not what i was saying but go off

jumphalf team is getting hella defensive of their work here and that's pretty dumb
nah, that's just morsel being morsel
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Re: JUMP mean(U(0,1)) - Spring cleaning? Wonderful. Just wonderful.

Postby HiroshiMishima » 1 month ago

"It looks too hard" is a perfectly valid opinion, considering the sorta dreck people spew when they think something is "too easy" and then get a chorus of applause. The best rule of thumb when designing anything is if it's hard enough to challenge the person making it.. tone it down. As the developer or designer of a level or game, you're going to have the most experience, know the ins and outs, and will have a vastly unfair advantage over almost everyone else playing it.

There's a cute little indie game called Environmental Station Alpha that wound up having an absolutely absurd boss fairly early on because, after testing it a few times, the developer found it too easy and kept increasing the difficulty. It wound up being a game stopper for many people. Never assume what is easy for you is going to be easy for others, ever.

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Re: JUMP mean(U(0,1)) - Spring cleaning? Wonderful. Just wonderful.

Postby morsel/morceau » 1 month ago

KobaBeach wrote:
morsel/morceau wrote: perhaps because people are going to dismiss your work with 'it looks hard' or ' vip 5 was better'
that's not what i was saying but go off

jumphalf team is getting hella defensive of their work here and that's pretty dumb
I'm not really part of the 'jumphalf team'. I prefer jump to jumphalf and vip to either of them. I was trying to appeal to your generosity to stop you from making inane and invidious comparisons. Imagine you weren't just a shitposter and had done something well regarded in smw. Now imagine trying to make anything new when it's just going to be dismissed in regard to your previous work or some other arbitrary standard in the field. Do you understand you infuriating that would be? Please try to judge things on their own merits (and from having actually played them yourself).

Also while I'm defending my brood and we generally are lumping everyone into the 'jumphalf team', you can't have it both ways.
Also for the most of this hack I'm not a fan of SnoruntPyro levels.
Unlike the first jump, when those of us who were arseholes (I'm referring entirely to myself here) were allowed to go out anarchic ways, and there really was some (!) justification for singling out people for odium, in jumphalf nothing was not subject to community approval, and this kind of targetting of individuals is extremely distasteful.
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Re: JUMP mean(U(0,1)) - Spring cleaning? Wonderful. Just wonderful.

Postby YelseyKing » 1 month ago

HiroshiMishima wrote: "It looks too hard" is a perfectly valid opinion, considering the sorta dreck people spew when they think something is "too easy" and then get a chorus of applause. The best rule of thumb when designing anything is if it's hard enough to challenge the person making it.. tone it down. As the developer or designer of a level or game, you're going to have the most experience, know the ins and outs, and will have a vastly unfair advantage over almost everyone else playing it.
This is something I've felt for quite some time. In fact, my friends and I were just discussing this on Discord this morning.

Basically, it seems as though there's this major "creator bias" in the ROM hacking community as a whole, that they feel their levels are "perfectly fair", if not "too easy", because *they* can get through them with no problem. You know, *they* who created the stage, *they* who know every intended solution, *they* who have tested the stage a thousand times. They seem to forget that no one *else* has the same encyclopedic knowledge of their levels. So when they get criticized about the difficulty, they're *completely* blindsided, leading to a defensive attitude, and the almost inevitable utterance of the most useless line a game creator can possibly say: "*I* didn't find it that hard!". Gee. I can't possibly imagine *why*. :roll:

Moreover, I've seen many times *just on this forum alone* that if the level creator or... pretty much *anyone else*, particularly someone with "seniority", doesn't have a problem with something in a level, it's completely closed to debate; you're allowed to have an opinion different from theirs, sure, but clearly, it's the *wrong* opinion, and therefore does not need to be taken into consideration whatsoever. Those who like excruciatingly hard games are fine with whatever nonsense is there, because *clearly* they are the only demographic of gamer that *matters*, and the rest of us just need to shut up and "git gud". If this statement offends you, then you are precisely the kind of person I'm calling out here. Maybe take a good long look at yourself and think about just *why* it makes you so irrationally angry that not everyone enjoys the same things in video games as you.

The really annoying thing about this kind of mentality is that a lot of the worst elements of levels I particularly dislike -- and I've noticed this happening quite a bit in Jumphalf -- tend to center around one or two really egregious parts. Parts in which you can absolutely tell the creator fell victim to the "I'm finding this too easy" trap. There are three common trends here, all of which I've seen used *many* times in Jumphalf:

1) A minor nuisance enemy like a goomba or a shell-less koopa is placed on a small ledge. It presents no *real* danger. It's just there as essentially filler, to keep certain minor jumps from being completely "safe". They seem to exist largely to provide occasional cheap hits on the 20th time you're forced to restart a stage and are getting tired and impatient. In other words, this is more of a troll move than actual difficulty.

2) Partially related to the first thing, a nuisance enemy or obstacle placed in *just* the right spot to nail you unless you know it's there ahead of time, or are able to react super quickly and make a particularly uncomfortable jump. An example would be a long koopa jumping segment in which you end up on a single block... with a falling spike located just over it.

3) "Layered" obstacles, such as having to avoid two bouncing podoboos in a small space, while spikes fall over the only safe platforms... which are also circles by sparkies. This one can best be summed up by a particular A2MT level, in which, at one point, you're expected to navigate around a jumping fish generator, a fast-moving, long fire bar, two "maverick" thwomps, and a pair of phantos. All *while underwater*. It was one of the most miserable experiences I've ever had in any game, *ever*. The removal of even *one* of those elements would've made the whole thing a lot more bearable.

None of these things (except possibly the third) are necessarily *fatal* flaws, but they nevertheless feel like artificially inflated difficulty stuck in by someone who had gotten just a tad *too* familiar with their levels. There are *plenty* of *legitimately* (and *fair*) challenging moments to be had; there's no need for these sort of "gotcha!" traps.

And by the way, don't think I'm shitting on Jumphalf here. I've been playing it myself, and outside of a handful of isolated instances (not even *entire levels*, mind), I've found it *extremely* fun and well-made. I'm just not the type to pull his punches; even things I *love* are not immune to criticism on *some* level.

HiroshiMishima wrote: There's a cute little indie game called Environmental Station Alpha that wound up having an absolutely absurd boss fairly early on because, after testing it a few times, the developer found it too easy and kept increasing the difficulty. It wound up being a game stopper for many people. Never assume what is easy for you is going to be easy for others, ever.
I think I know which boss you're talking about. Is it the one

that looks like the offspring of a Malboro from Final Fantasy, and Spore Spawn from Super Metroid?

That was one of the two bosses (the

Plague Hive

being the other) that gave me an *absurd* amount of trouble. I really enjoyed ESA, but I totally agree that game absolutely overdid it at times. I couldn't even be bothered to finish the postgame due to how absurd it was.
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Re: JUMP mean(U(0,1)) - Spring cleaning? Wonderful. Just wonderful.

Postby Leet » 1 month ago

YelseyKing wrote: Moreover, I've seen many times *just on this forum alone* that if the level creator or... pretty much *anyone else*, particularly someone with "seniority", doesn't have a problem with something in a level, it's completely closed to debate; you're allowed to have an opinion different from theirs, sure, but clearly, it's the *wrong* opinion, and therefore does not need to be taken into consideration whatsoever.
How was this gotten across? Always seemed like the opposite to me; If raocow struggled on a level it wasn't "okay" for the creator to have made it, and they need to repent in some way
ImageWell it is a decent hack but sometime its just too repetitif there no level that actually pop in your face and your like oh yeah that level they all ressemble themselves and just monster along the way.
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Re: JUMP mean(U(0,1)) - Spring cleaning? Wonderful. Just wonderful.

Postby YelseyKing » 1 month ago

Leet wrote:
YelseyKing wrote: Moreover, I've seen many times *just on this forum alone* that if the level creator or... pretty much *anyone else*, particularly someone with "seniority", doesn't have a problem with something in a level, it's completely closed to debate; you're allowed to have an opinion different from theirs, sure, but clearly, it's the *wrong* opinion, and therefore does not need to be taken into consideration whatsoever.
How was this gotten across? Always seemed like the opposite to me; If raocow struggled on a level it wasn't "okay" for the creator to have made it, and they need to repent in some way
The problem, to me, isn't the reaction if raocow *struggles* with a level... While I agree the reactions to that can get irrationally and unnecessarily acidic, it's the *personal* reactions to aspects of a level he *did not* struggle with that tend to get the reaction I said. If he struggled with a level, everyone wants the author's head on a platter. If he did not, but it's demonstrably difficult on a level that most people less skilled than he would find patently unreasonable, then the reaction is the complete opposite, with people in both the comments and forum gushing over it, and they will not hear criticism of it.
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Re: JUMP mean(U(0,1)) - Spring cleaning? Wonderful. Just wonderful.

Postby KobaBeach » 1 month ago

Mandew wrote: nah, that's just morsel being morsel
ah ok, srry

morsel/morceau wrote: Imagine you weren't just a shitposter and had done something well regarded in smw.
thanks thats not going to totally ruin my self-esteem even further, it's not like i'm literally too depressed and trapped in self-hating thoughts to be able to make anything at all in smw because i'm constantly pressuring myself to make something perfect

like yeah i guess i didnt know saying "i didnt like this one thing about this hack that i otherwise love a ton for the most part" is enough to have you call me a useless pile of shit who can't do anything right which is what i've been telling myself nonstop for the past few months which is getting me closer and closer to eventually killing myself one day

morsel/morceau wrote: Unlike the first jump, when those of us who were arseholes (I'm referring entirely to myself here) were allowed to go out anarchic ways, and there really was some (!) justification for singling out people for odium, in jumphalf nothing was not subject to community approval, and this kind of targetting of individuals is extremely distasteful.
dude Let People Have Opinions, am i not allowed to say "i didnt like jolpe's levels"

Leet wrote:
YelseyKing wrote: Moreover, I've seen many times *just on this forum alone* that if the level creator or... pretty much *anyone else*, particularly someone with "seniority", doesn't have a problem with something in a level, it's completely closed to debate; you're allowed to have an opinion different from theirs, sure, but clearly, it's the *wrong* opinion, and therefore does not need to be taken into consideration whatsoever.
How was this gotten across? Always seemed like the opposite to me; If raocow struggled on a level it wasn't "okay" for the creator to have made it, and they need to repent in some way
tbh that's literally what's happening right now but feel free to continue playing dumb
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Re: JUMP mean(U(0,1)) - Spring cleaning? Wonderful. Just wonderful.

Postby Leet » 1 month ago

ok bro
ImageWell it is a decent hack but sometime its just too repetitif there no level that actually pop in your face and your like oh yeah that level they all ressemble themselves and just monster along the way.
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Re: JUMP mean(U(0,1)) - Spring cleaning? Wonderful. Just wonderful.

Postby freshtalk » 1 month ago

KobaBeach wrote:
Leet wrote: How was this gotten across? Always seemed like the opposite to me; If raocow struggled on a level it wasn't "okay" for the creator to have made it, and they need to repent in some way
tbh that's literally what's happening right now but feel free to continue playing dumb
Are you purposefully being ironic by pointing out morsel is being needlessly rude yet in the very same post being disproportionately prickly to another comment yourself? Because I was almost with you up until that part that came out of nowhere.

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Re: JUMP mean(U(0,1)) - Spring cleaning? Wonderful. Just wonderful.

Postby Mata Hari » 1 month ago

If yalls could please start treating each other with more respect it would lead to more constructive conversation

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Re: JUMP mean(U(0,1)) - Spring cleaning? Wonderful. Just wonderful.

Postby Alice » 1 month ago

YelseyKing wrote: Moreover, I've seen many times *just on this forum alone* that if the level creator or... pretty much *anyone else*, particularly someone with "seniority", doesn't have a problem with something in a level, it's completely closed to debate; you're allowed to have an opinion different from theirs, sure, but clearly, it's the *wrong* opinion, and therefore does not need to be taken into consideration whatsoever. Those who like excruciatingly hard games are fine with whatever nonsense is there, because *clearly* they are the only demographic of gamer that *matters*, and the rest of us just need to shut up and "git gud".
I've noticed this a fair amount with Dwarf Fortress after the announcement that it would be released on Steam after being made more approachable for new players. To be fair there's fewer people complaining than I was expecting but there's still a weirdly large group of the game's fanbase that seems to think that making the game actually playable for most people somehow is going to ruin it despite the fact it won't be changing the actual gameplay in any way. (Toady's plans are mainly to include a comprehensive optional tileset, some early game guidance for new players, and turning the UI into something that resembles something a little more usable from what I've read.)

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Re: halfjump - spring is in the air. Spring hit the ground

Postby Awoo » 1 month ago

so, raocow played levels in a video game today
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Re: halfjump - spring is in the air. Spring hit the ground

Postby freshtalk » 1 month ago

I don't think the second half's collection is quite as strong altogether as the first, but I think the Mudroom is my favourite of these? It's going to sound silly, but finding out how to work-around the platforming where being able to jump normally would have made it simple kinda makes me feel like I did a smart thing in particular. It's weird, I know.
Awoo wrote: so, raocow played levels in a video game today
you sure made a post

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Re: JUMP mean(U(0,1)) - Spring cleaning? Wonderful. Just wonderful.

Postby Implo » 1 month ago

morsel/morceau wrote:
Also for the most of this hack I'm not a fan of SnoruntPyro levels.
Unlike the first jump, when those of us who were arseholes (I'm referring entirely to myself here) were allowed to go out anarchic ways, and there really was some (!) justification for singling out people for odium, in jumphalf nothing was not subject to community approval, and this kind of targetting of individuals is extremely distasteful.
First of all, it's not a nice practice either to answer without reading the whole comment either.

Second - when I was writing my comment, I didn't mean to offend anybody. Looks like I was wrong, so I apologize. Have in mind that I only made my opinion based on my playthrough experience. I am weak in quick events and SnoruntPyro loves to use them - I have too slow reaction to make many things in short amount of time. Do I want his/her levels to be cut off from this hack? No. Everybody have problems with something else - somebody don't like puzzles, somebody else isn't fan of tricky platforming and I don't like "think and act fast" levels. That's normal. But I didn't mean to attack 1 person just because I didn't like his/her levels.

And by the way, strangely enough I enjoyed SnoruntPyro's postgame levels.

And the last thing. If you really wanted to protect creators from these comments, you shouldn't expose their names in the hack. Right now, a player can connect who's levels destroy him the most and make this kind of distasteful comments. So, partially it's yours fault.

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Re: JUMP mode(0.5,1/2,2/4,3/6,1,2/1,4/2,6/3) - Spring cleaning? Wonderful. Just wonderful.

Postby CrappyBlueLuigi » 1 month ago

unrelated, but i gotta admit the use of romancing saga boss music/other themes as the final level theme in vip-inspired hacks has been losing points with me because of how grating those songs get the longer you have to hear them. they're good music, but it's like the hell temple effect, where the music there is so non-stop that it doesn't give you the room to breathe, figuratively. (i say that as someone who loves hell temple's theme out of context from playing la-mulana)

i don't mean to burst out here with another negative comment when the thread's been treading negative, but this thought's been bubbling toward the front of my mind the last few videos
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Re: JUMP mean(U(0,1)) - Spring cleaning? Wonderful. Just wonderful.

Postby freshtalk » 1 month ago

Implo wrote: And the last thing. If you really wanted to protect creators from these comments, you shouldn't expose their names in the hack. Right now, a player can connect who's levels destroy him the most and make this kind of distasteful comments. So, partially it's yours fault.
That's utterly backwards. Someone saying a type of comment to someone else could be bad and you're saying that they should just remain anonymous? You could have just stopped at saying you didn't intend it that way, or that their statement at you wasn't accurate instead instead of somehow arguing that trying to point out another user's comment is distasteful is pointless in of itself.


Though I guess I am as big a fool as anyone else here because I couldn't just leave these posts without getting a word in. I'm sorry to everyone else for that.

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Re: JUMP mode(0.5,1/2,2/4,3/6,1,2/1,4/2,6/3) - Spring cleaning? Wonderful. Just wonderful.

Postby gbreeze » 1 month ago

*sigh*. It always seems like talking about Mario hacks turns into this, doesn't it. No matter where you go

Forums are a place for free discussion and if you didn't like a level in the hack, you should voice your opinion (without dipping into being rude), just as the creators and other players may have their opportunity to discuss what they liked about the levels as well (without dipping into being overly defensive or circlejerking). Perhaps there is a fine line between offering criticism and being rude, just as there is a fine line between simply defending what you love and being an overly defensive, circlejerking jump fan.

The below message is not a defense of our actions but possibly an answer to why people may be asking "why are these 2 levels so hard". For the record, I don't mind if you think they are too hard. I might disagree, but hey the great thing about life is that having different opinions and tastes make us unique and makes the world not boring.

So lolyoshi quit the jump team and all hacking related things in general a while ago. Well technically he didn't quit, he just went fully anonymous and disappeared. But he expressed that he didn't want his levels messed with before he left for good (which is an understandable wish).

We were okay with So Sadistic because it was purposefully a gauntlet level, but this created a weird position; if we made Bowser's castle easier than the level prior to it, then it would feel anticlimactic and weird. On top of that, the Bossest of Bass and Do Pilots Wear Capes, both some of the trickiest levels prior to So Sadistic, were both nerfed (bass was nerfed quite heavily). But since So Sadistic and Bowser weren't nerfed, it seemed like quite a jarring jump in difficulty. The level also didn't fit in postgame for several reasons. Thus, here it stays. However, I will say that the difficulty ramps down a lot in the postgame, things become much easier than what we have experienced these past few days.

Also, there was a significant boss "drought" in the team, and we had tried numerous options.. but it seemed like failure was inevitable. We were about to cancel the boss and just put a goal orb or something at the end of the level, and I mean we were really close to doing that, we were out of options. Then, by a stroke of luck, worldpeace was suddenly available and miraculously pulled out the Bowser boss. Along with worldpeace's health issues and personal struggles, and his dedication to the jump series, it was almost an emotional moment for us, to see him dedicate his time once again to the jump project. So, members of the team are probably a bit emotionally biased towards this boss and its creation, and to worldpeace as well.

Please understand that it comes not from a place of "Haha I'm better than you at video games" (and if you really think that's the case, I invite you to watch myself or Lazy or one of us to play smw, we're not that good lol). Rather, it comes from a place of extreme appreciation for worldpeace's work because we have appreciated his dedication after 3 long years of everyone basically tiring over this hack nearly every day. Also, he saved us from almost sure ridicule if we didn't have a boss at all. So please understand the emotional and perhaps nostalgic bias at play.

That's all I got.
Last edited by gbreeze on 04 Jun 2019, 16:50, edited 3 times in total.

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Nimono
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Re: JUMP mode(0.5,1/2,2/4,3/6,1,2/1,4/2,6/3) - Spring cleaning? Wonderful. Just wonderful.

Postby Nimono » 1 month ago

oh my gosh

i'm sorry for causing such a fight :( i didn't want it to come to this, I just wanted to state my opinion, not have people fight over me and others' opinions

can we
please just get back to discussing the LP, please? thanks :(



Eldritch Dungeon was cool at first with all the ThwowhTs (or are they pmomps? ah heck, let's just call them Thworms like raocow does!), but I feel like the Thworms at the end were starting to get a little ehhhhhhhhhhh. Placed in small, cramped spaces, you're expected to quickly dodge under them, and especially the door... I've really noticed that a lot in the level overall- the whole place is a marathon level, and a handful of rooms have no room for error at all starting halfway through them, throwing you all the way back to the start, or the midpoint if you collected it, if you make a mistake. I, personally, don't think that's really good design.
gbreeze wrote: Please understand that it comes not from a place of "Haha I'm better than you at video games" (and if you really think that's the case, I invite you to watch myself or Lazy or one of us to play smw, we're not quite bad lol). Rather, it comes from a place of extreme appreciation for worldpeace's work because we have appreciated his dedication after 3 long years of everyone basically tiring over this hack nearly every day. Also, he saved us from almost sure ridicule if we didn't have a boss at all. So please understand the emotional and perhaps nostalgic bias at play.

That's all I got.
I absolutely understand where it comes from! I understand that it was an emotional time for you all there, but... I do feel that doesn't make it free from criticism. I'll temper my negativity regarding it with some positivity: That boss is insanely well-crafted code-wise. Well done for worldpeace for that!

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Re: JUMP mean(U(0,1)) - Spring cleaning? Wonderful. Just wonderful.

Postby Cyril » 1 month ago

HiroshiMishima wrote: There's a cute little indie game called Environmental Station Alpha that wound up having an absolutely absurd boss fairly early on because, after testing it a few times, the developer found it too easy and kept increasing the difficulty. It wound up being a game stopper for many people. Never assume what is easy for you is going to be easy for others, ever.
Which boss is that? Even on first playthrough I don't remember any particular boss being an outlier in difficulty other than the final boss and one of the post-game bosses

Sorry this is like, literally one of my favorite games so maybe I'm biased but even still
i've honestly never played a video game in my life


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