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Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby Ditocoaf » 10 months ago

ano0maly wrote: But I'm putting emphasis on that difference. In a live chat it would be not only distracting to the streamer, but impractical for everyone, to post advice and details about everything. But in a recorded format that is discussed on forums, people have a lot more to say and the structure makes that practical.
But forums also allow people to easily hide parts of their posts, which lets the streamer decide which help he wants and doesn't. I think on the whole that balances it out.

Obviously some unsolicited advice is worse than others, but when it's so easy to include the "solicit this advice y/n" in any post, you might as well.
Some of the Megaman playthroughs were actually blind (such as Zero). That was quite different from playing Classic games with self-imposed stipulations like reverse boss order; it was in fact "experiencing this fun game for the first time".
In that case, if I was especially looking forward to that LP, I'd be pretty disappointed if backseat gaming was super rampant. But on the other hand, maybe "this is blind" is pushed aside in importance for the sake of the bigger project. I can't really say. If we want to tighten up on backseating in other LPs, ATMM can join in or be an exception.

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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby SAJewers » 10 months ago

ano0maly wrote: But I'm putting emphasis on that difference. In a live chat it would be not only distracting to the streamer, but impractical for everyone, to post advice and details about everything. But in a recorded format that is discussed on forums, people have a lot more to say and the structure makes that practical.
Not really. I've seen sebby-level backseating and worse in twitch chats.

EDIT: Not a streamer i follow, but here's a decent twitch clip on backseating i came across
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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby Piesonscreations » 10 months ago

To be fair, I think what happened with the Wario Land 3 thread had more to do with who was giving the hints and not the contents within. I'm sure if anyone else would've brought up the ladder thing, it would've just been brushed off. Not saying this was either the right or wrong attitude to have, just mentioning that it might be an outlier situation.

With that being said, I think most of the talkhaus has got a pretty good consensus in regard to what put in the ispoiler/spoiler tags or not, even if they might not agree with the importance and weight giving this information might have. Personally, I question the sanctity of spoilers and the devotion some people might have with them, but I also understand that it's really easy to just put things in spoiler tags.
I think it's fair to have people really think about how much spoilers really mean to them- at one point I, too, was vehemently against them; but upon further introspection I realized that I still really enjoyed many things I had been "spoiled", often enough engaging with those works because I was spoiled in the first place. And this is not to say that I'm alone in this sentiment, as there have been a few studies that seem to suggest the same (https://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/ ... ories-more [the article includes links to the studies]), although i do not have really any knowledge on this area, so I cannot testify to the validity of these studies.

But still I can appreciate that blind runs or first viewings are unique experiences with their own positives, and I am all for someone getting to have that experience with they can only get once, I'm just saying that, up to a certain point, people should not fear spoilers as much as they do.
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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby ano0maly » 10 months ago

SAJewers wrote:
ano0maly wrote: But I'm putting emphasis on that difference. In a live chat it would be not only distracting to the streamer, but impractical for everyone, to post advice and details about everything. But in a recorded format that is discussed on forums, people have a lot more to say and the structure makes that practical.
Not really. I've seen sebby-level backseating and worse in twitch chats.

EDIT: Not a streamer i follow, but here's a decent twitch clip on backseating i came across
That's not my point. I'm saying that trying to feed a bunch of advice and information on Twitch chat is going to have a larger magnitude of adverse impact because 1) Twitch chat has a smaller window you're seeing at a given time, and 2) it interferes with the player's experience as it's happening live. Not to mention it's possible many of the watchers would comment on the chat simultaneously. The forums are not as susceptible to that. It's not proper to equate them with Twitch chat and try to impose the same rules on talkhaus.
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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby SAJewers » 10 months ago

ano0maly wrote:
SAJewers wrote:
ano0maly wrote: But I'm putting emphasis on that difference. In a live chat it would be not only distracting to the streamer, but impractical for everyone, to post advice and details about everything. But in a recorded format that is discussed on forums, people have a lot more to say and the structure makes that practical.
Not really. I've seen sebby-level backseating and worse in twitch chats.

EDIT: Not a streamer i follow, but here's a decent twitch clip on backseating i came across
That's not my point. I'm saying that trying to feed a bunch of advice and information on Twitch chat is going to have a larger magnitude of adverse impact because 1) Twitch chat has a smaller window you're seeing at a given time, and 2) it interferes with the player's experience as it's happening live. Not to mention it's possible many of the watchers would comment on the chat simultaneously. The forums are not as susceptible to that. It's not proper to equate them with Twitch chat and try to impose the same rules on talkhaus.
Oh, ok, I misunderstood you then. I thought you were trying to say backseating in a livestream wasn't as much of an issue as on a recorded video.

Yes, the ramifications of backseating in a live chat vs a message board are somewhat different.

EDIT: What I was originally trying to say was that in a twitch channel i'm subbed to, there's a strict zero tolerance policy on spoilers and backseating.It seems people here also want a strict zero tolerance policy on spoilers and backseating, and based on my experience seeing it in action, i'd have no problem with a strict zero tolerance policy being implemented here.
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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby raekuul » 10 months ago

That's all well and good, but who will bell the cat how would such a no-tolerance policy be enforced?

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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby Classtoise » 10 months ago

Grounder wrote:
Classtoise wrote: If someone tells me "You can jump on enemies to kill them", it's up to me whether or not that's okay. And a lot of people think they're cleverly avoiding it by saying "Oh, if only there was some way to destroy these enemies by blunt force trauma to the head with the bottom of your foot ;) ;) ;) :::;)"
That is a freaking awful example considering the games rao plays.

And that in most games when jump to beat enemies is the solution, it's one of the primary ones it expects you to use, if not the only one.
That was just an example of people trying to "cleverly" circumvent spoiling things by giving incredibly obvious hints, instead of just being a considerate person and spoiler-tagging.

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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby Mandew » 10 months ago

I get sad when raocow is robbed of the eureka moments :<

For most games, it's natural to give raocow advice. Example; in SMW Hacks or SM64 hacks, explaining engine quirks is kind of a necessity, since most of the time those games assume the quirks are known.

But then there are games where discovering how the game mechanics work is an integral part of the experience. For example, La Mulana would not make even a quarter of the impression on raocow if everyone just started spoiling how things worked. Same for games like Wario Land 3. Those games I would definitely advise a no gameplay-hint warning *unless* raocow asks.

edit: oh yeah, in addition -- I'd just generally like people to give raocow at least a chance to figure things out for himself, and be a little more patient.
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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby Kilgamayan » 10 months ago

raekuul wrote: That's all well and good, but who will bell the cat how would such a no-tolerance policy be enforced?
Forum-staff-applied time-outs.
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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby ano0maly » 10 months ago

Kilgamayan wrote:
raekuul wrote: That's all well and good, but who will bell the cat how would such a no-tolerance policy be enforced?
Forum-staff-applied time-outs.
Good luck with that, you'll be cutting the already declined forum activity in half like that
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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby Kilgamayan » 10 months ago

I would argue that reduction in forum activity via removal of people actively being asshats is a good thing rather than a bad thing.
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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby ano0maly » 10 months ago

Problem with that is that the zero tolerance policy asked here simply isn't workable in talkhaus forums.

Do you want all the posts to just be "reactions"? I sure don't. And I doubt raocow does either. The reason you primarily get reaction posts on Twitch chats is because that platform is designed to be mainly about reacting to what's happening at the moment. The forums, on the other hand, have a more static layout and allow more in depth discussions and explaining. I think just general information about things that were already presented in video is fine; it's when you start to have directives towards the player that you need to be more cautious about backseating.

And if certain games are more sensitive to hints, like La-Mulana, that should be presented clearly in the thread on a per case basis.
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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby Kilgamayan » 10 months ago

If such things are tolerated in a given thread, then there's no need to punish. The suggested punishment was for actions that are not tolerated. In retrospect I suppose that wasn't as clear as it could have been, but hopefully it is now.
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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby Mandew » 10 months ago

ano0maly wrote:
Do you want all the posts to just be "reactions"? I sure don't. And I doubt raocow does either.
I don't know what you're talking about. We have such an amazing range of reactions here on the talkhaus. People go in-depth about things that just happened, and offer tons of hindsight and critiques about the game, hotly debating about things that work or don't work. Sometimes we even call raocow out for being an idiot about how he handles some things. Some people discuss material that exists outside of the game itself. I've never seen any good game run out of things to talk about so soon that people have to start discussing ahead.

This issue isn't all black and white. A Spoilers & Backseat Gaming rule should not apply to -every- game. But there are some games on which such a rule definitely has to be applied.
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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby ano0maly » 10 months ago

By reactions I mean just conveying emotions and responses solely based on audience observation without posting what would be construed as help, since we're talking about suggestion to bar posting advice that isn't requested by the player.

Twitch "reaction posts" are things like this:
<name1>
WOW
<name2>
haha lol
<name3>
are you serious
<name2>
fix the game plz
<name4>
I dunno what to say honestly
<name5>
(-‸ლ)
Contrast that with forum discussions that have helpful information and some advice pertaining to performance in today's video. I'm not trying to portray Twitch chats as immature or not intelligent but this is what I mean by just having reactions and no unsolicited advice.
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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby Leet » 10 months ago

I on the other hand am trying to portray twitch chat as immature and unintelligent, and I say that the talkhaus is not immature and unintelligent and therefore there's no problem
Well it is a decent hack but sometime its just too repetitif there no level that actually pop in your face and your like oh yeah that level they all ressemble themselves and just monster along the way.
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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby ano0maly » 10 months ago

Well then all the more reason why you can't use same rules here
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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby Mandew » 10 months ago

honestly your argument has quite a few leaps in logic.

Here's what I get from it:
Premise:
some streamers prohibit backseat gaming on twitch
backseat gaming being prohibited = chat becomes reactionary and dull
Conclusion:
If backseat gaming is prohibited on the talkhaus, forum threads will become boring.
My counter-arguments have been assuming that this conclusion is what you are currently arguing. If that's not the case, I'd like to have a clearer picture painted.
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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby ano0maly » 10 months ago

It's not that I'm trying to bring the Twitch analogy to talkhaus - in fact I'm pointing out that they're not the same.

I was saying that for Twitch chat, it's natural to have primarily reactionary chat. I don't think of it as dull; in busier streams, it's there basically as extra spicing to the stream itself anyway. Since Twitch is designed for livestreams, the chat will be primarily about reacting to the live moment in the ongoing stream. And you have a small window that's by default constantly updating by itself, so it's not a good place to post the same kind of detailed analysis you see on the forums. Those are the differences.

Some of the things you listed above can fall under unasked-for help, and it seemed like some of the post suggested a general policy of disallowing any such helpful info unless it's asked. Others have said that this goes too far, and I can see their point. If it's about something upcoming and we can expect a reaction to that particular thing, it would help to spoiler it out, but if it's just general information about something in published footage, I don't think it's necessary.
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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby Kilgamayan » 10 months ago

Perhaps it is worth having two separate discussions, then:

* What is and is not permissible
* What should be done if non-permissible posts are made

I think the answer to the second issue is rather obvious, because there is literally nothing regular forum users can do to stop such behavior, but if staff decline to sign on to such a thing, then having the first discussion is utterly pointless.
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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby thatguyif » 10 months ago

I will say this much:
La-Mulana, he's gonna need some help. That game has more than a few puzzles that have absolutely no clear and obvious solutions. And by "absolutely no clear and obvious solutions" I mean "you literally have to stumble upon the answer with zero context or clues if you're doing this blind. And said answer often has a very tenuous connection to the puzzle at best, makes no sense at worst."

If we hold fast to a no spoiler/backseat gaming rule here, he is not going to finish that game at all. Is that what you want?

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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby Leet » 10 months ago

thatguyif wrote: I will say this much:
La-Mulana, he's gonna need some help. That game has more than a few puzzles that have absolutely no clear and obvious solutions. And by "absolutely no clear and obvious solutions" I mean "you literally have to stumble upon the answer with zero context or clues if you're doing this blind. And said answer often has a very tenuous connection to the puzzle at best, makes no sense at worst."

If we hold fast to a no spoiler/backseat gaming rule here, he is not going to finish that game at all. Is that what you want?
If we say "oh there's an exception for la mulana because hard game meme", then every single episode of la mulana will be "so somebody told me to do this thing" and nothing else. IS THAT WHAT YOU WANT THINK OF THE CHILDREN
Well it is a decent hack but sometime its just too repetitif there no level that actually pop in your face and your like oh yeah that level they all ressemble themselves and just monster along the way.
Blood Ghoul wrote:Sometimes it seems my blood spurts out in gobs, as if it were a fountain's pulsing sobs. I clearly hear it mutter as it goes yet cannot find the wound from which it flows. Before I met you, baby, I didn't know what I was missing.

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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby thatguyif » 10 months ago

Leet wrote: If we say "oh there's an exception for la mulana because hard game meme", then every single episode of la mulana will be "so somebody told me to do this thing" and nothing else. IS THAT WHAT YOU WANT THINK OF THE CHILDREN
Are you always like this?

I mean, for fuck's sake, A Raving Loon played La-Mulana for a year blind before he gave up and opened up a guide. And that LPer practically injects intelligence in his playthroughs of very hard games, not to mention him spending time running bad playthroughs of games just so he can collect data.

More to the point, I didn't say all the puzzles, I said "more than a few." The puzzles in the beginning aren't too harsh. It's when you get to the mid-game onward that things take a dive to the nonsensical.

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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby Leet » 10 months ago

thatguyif wrote: Are you always like this?
Yeah I'm gonna respond to a post that begins like this in good faith and take it really seriously

If several people are all trying to give what in their mind are small hints and tips unspoiled, then those several people together will paint a full picture of the whole puzzle. It's something that raocow has talked about many, many times. Just because you think "certain puzzles are like this", doesn't mean the dozens of other users will agree on what puzzles those are; saying "spoilers are ok for this game" will still result in the situation I described, no matter what.

A spoiler policy would not be any different just because a game is particularly obtuse. Things will still be posted in spoiler tags, and raocow will click on them if he is stuck. Where you're getting "raocow will be stuck forever" from I'm not sure. The premise is that people should tag spoilers and not give the LPer advice he doesn't want. I'm sure he will use hints at some point, but they'll be on his terms, not several other people operating independently's. Which is the situation this thread is addressing.
Well it is a decent hack but sometime its just too repetitif there no level that actually pop in your face and your like oh yeah that level they all ressemble themselves and just monster along the way.
Blood Ghoul wrote:Sometimes it seems my blood spurts out in gobs, as if it were a fountain's pulsing sobs. I clearly hear it mutter as it goes yet cannot find the wound from which it flows. Before I met you, baby, I didn't know what I was missing.

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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby Implo » 10 months ago

thatguyif wrote: I will say this much:
La-Mulana, he's gonna need some help. That game has more than a few puzzles that have absolutely no clear and obvious solutions. And by "absolutely no clear and obvious solutions" I mean "you literally have to stumble upon the answer with zero context or clues if you're doing this blind. And said answer often has a very tenuous connection to the puzzle at best, makes no sense at worst."

If we hold fast to a no spoiler/backseat gaming rule here, he is not going to finish that game at all. Is that what you want?
First of all don't underestimate raocow. He has his own way solving puzzles and many times I was really surprised by his solution. He's really known for breaking the puzzles. So I think the only time you give solution for the puzzle without using spoiler tag is after raocow will solve the puzzle. So otherwise put solution into spoiler. This way you are creating choice for raocow and if he will be completely clueless, he will just read a spoiler. Just like he did when he had a problem with beating Pokeys in Last Impact.

I think it's also OK to correct if raocow is doing doing and thinking about right solution about puzzle, but without specifying outright solution.


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