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Wario Land 3 - With input from Samus

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Re: Wario Land 3 - With input from Samus

Post by Ashan »

Griflion wrote: 5 years ago huh, i thought that was a different rabbit, what is he doing in the music box?
It is a different rabbit, in WL2 you face off with Michael, this is his brother Pichael.[Citation Needed]
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Re: Wario Land 3 - With input from Samus

Post by Voltgloss »

Zach808 wrote: 5 years ago I wouldn't necessarily call the boss bad. It just shows up way too early. There's a powerup later on that would make this a much easier/fun fight.
Without spoiling what the power up is - is it possible to forego this boss until after getting that power up, in classic Metroidvania style?
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Re: Wario Land 3 - With input from Samus

Post by FPzero »

No, you're not intended to break sequence at all. This isn't even that much of a Metroidvania, it just has some progression elements through its power ups. Otherwise, you're pretty much intended to follow 1 main path through the whole game.
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Re: Wario Land 3 - With input from Samus

Post by Crow »

Yeah that flow chart is making it pretty clear that at its core the game is pretty linear
i've honestly never played a video game in my life
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Re: Wario Land 3 - With input from Samus

Post by Sebby19 »

Here's the biggest update yet. And because it was so much work replacing everything, I'm posting all the new stuff together! Enjoy.
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So that useless Crown treasure, gotten at the top of The Volcano's Base, is an interesting one. While the Fantastic Flute is directly needed to obtain that treasure, you're not going to be able to get to the Giant Snake unless you get the Truck Wheels to fix the cart. So for this case, where the one treasure is indirectly required for another, I'll use these dotted lines.
-Took some effort to not spoil this ahead of time. You'll see I moved the position of the Blue Bracelet over to the right.
-Cutscenes don't change to reflect what you can or can't get. So the map will still have The Volcano's Base sparkle, even if you didn't fix the cart.
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Re: Wario Land 3 - With input from Samus

Post by Sebby19 »

Story Time! With Wario Land 4
The Chain of deals...
Frozen in the slippery iceberg was the Spiked Helmet. Wearing this, Wario can now headbutt bricks from below (like a certain plumber), even non-cracked ones! This opens up more paths in A Town In Chaos and the Desert Ruins. Back in town, Wario finds himself in a shady alley. After beating the local street punk, Shoot (no relation to Dunk from WLII), in a long soccer match, Wario wins the Second Music Box!
As it plays its tune, Wario reflects on how far he has come. 2 down, 3 to go. Thinking back to where he started, and watching the dancing figures in the box, Wario suddenly get the inspiration to check out whats between the plains and the coast, on the South Side.
He finds two new areas to explore! The Bank of the Wild River is in a forested area. Wario will have to navigate the rocky dunes, or he'll get swept away by the strong current. The Tidal Coast doesn't really have a coastline. Just tall rocky spires that get eroded away by the tides.
Nimono wrote:That music box... It bothers me. How does it unlock two levels WITHOUT DOING ANYTHING TO THE WORLD? Seriously! All it does is play music and SUDDENLY you now have access to two levels you didn't before, which clearly had no impediment to going to!
I hope you like my interpretation of what just happened.
Can anyone come up with something better?
Last edited by Sebby19 5 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wario Land 3 - With input from Samus

Post by Nimono »

Sebby19 wrote: 5 years ago
Nimono wrote:That music box... It bothers me. How does it unlock two levels WITHOUT DOING ANYTHING TO THE WORLD? Seriously! All it does is play music and SUDDENLY you now have access to two levels you didn't before, which clearly had no impediment to going to!
I hope you like my interpretation of what just happened.
Can anyone come up with something better?
Yes, I did like your interpretation of it!

Today we find MY most hated treasure in the game: W1 Green. NOTHING SAYS THAT BLOCK WILL ONLY BE DESTROYED IF YOU ARE BALL O STRING WARIO. MAYBE it'll naturally happen on your very first visit, maybe not. If it does, great! You know the trick now. If it didn't, WELP SUCKS TO BE YOU.

Wario, how dare you vandalize the music world with your trident and spellbook! You monster! Now that river is tiny! And it's all your fault!!!
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Re: Wario Land 3 - With input from Samus

Post by J. J. W. Mezun »

( Note: I can't help but notice that most o' these levels' night versions look mo' like an o'ercast day than night time. )

026. W1 Desert Ruin - Green

Dreary day ~
ruin so dank I'm
trapped in web.


027. N4 Bank of the Wild River - Gray

O'ercast day ~
a casual walk
& quick swim.


028. N5 The Tidal Coast - Gray

Cloudy day ~
jog from cliff to cliff,
burning fat.

-------------------

I was sitting here thinking raocow would ne'er figure out how to get to the green chest in "Desert Ruin" till his proclivity to get hit by every enemy turned beneficial & caused him to stumble into it.

Hilariously, while "Bank of the Wild River's" treasure is easy normally, if you speedrun this game with sequence breaks, this treasure is hell. You end up skipping learning how to swim when doing the sequence break I mentioned in "A Town in Chaos", so to get back to the gray chest you have to do a bunch o' ridiculous wall clips going backward, which requires you to charge 'way from the wall till you're on a certain pixel on the right edge, tap left for 1 frame so you flip round while still keeping your charge, charge toward the wall, slightly tap right on a certain pixel within the wall, & then jump, holding the A button, & @ the highest pixel, hold left. E'en on an emulator @ 50% speed, this is hard.

I do like how Wario Land 4-like the treasure is normally.

I'm only now realizing how weird it is that we have so many natural levels on coasts or mountains or in grasslands with robots wandering everywhere.
Last edited by J. J. W. Mezun 5 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wario Land 3 - With input from Samus

Post by Ashan »

Man you lucked the hell out getting caterpillar'd there. Or maybe that was intended of the player, to just screw around until accidentally finding that. Maybe it's more clear to try that if you've already done later levels where it becomes more obvious that caterpillar mode can break blocks, cause I don't think that was required until now. I recall later in the game there's blocks that have more of an obvious indication that caterpillar mode will break them?
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Re: Wario Land 3 - With input from Samus

Post by Veruchai »

That was a caterpillar breakable only block? I had assumed it was both tackle and caterpillar that would break it.
And here I was all ready to praise the level for setting it up so that you were likely to get punished into getting rewarded.
I mean it's still a decent setup to funnel you towards the chest, but if you're skilled enough to avoid them you're less likely to find the goal...
At least make the blocks green or something. Or teach the possibility first with a more obvious room like with the stomping donut lift.

Hmm, It might not be that bad to be honest. At least they showed that the green chest was in that room.
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Re: Wario Land 3 - With input from Samus

Post by Implo »

Yesterday, I beat this game and I can say I had a lot of fun. But there is something that I don't get it.

I have started the game after I heard that it is metroidvania and through the whole game until very end I asked the question: "Why people call this game metroidvania?" Why? I don't understand.

Sure, there are abilities to obtain and there is some optional stuff to get and there is a choice which level to do first. But is this really enough to call this game metroidvania? I don't think so.

Metroidvania games gives a lot of freedom, a lot of exploration, a lot of optional items, powerups, collectibles or quest items. That's why it's fun to get new ability. Because it unlock a lot in the game.

But in this game it's pretty opposite. The new ability unlocks one chest in few levels and... that's all. This makes WL3 a super linear game. There is really nothing optional to get.

Pro gamers will probably say "What about optional chests?" Well, they exist. But the first time I played, I unlocked final boss after getting all the chests. After seeing progression chart, I noticed that half of what I got was optional. But my problem is - bonus chests aren't indicated at all. I couldn't figure out which item is optional and which isn't from it's appearance. Some items that looked like treasure happened to be key items.

Another thing is about backtracking. At early stages it's not a problem. But at some point levels and cutscenes started to appear one after another and very fast I got lost in that. So when I returned to some level, I didn't remember how it looked, because it was 10 or 20 levels ago. And I didn't remember what has unlocked in the level because it 5 cutscenes ago. This forced me to explore the whole level again just to find this one path that has opened. It was really boring.

And speaking about that, most of the changes for the levels works in following way: "Hey, do you remember this one passage that was locked all the time? Well, guess what, now it's open. So go there, get a key and open the only available chest in the area" Don't get me wrong, I like these cutscenes, but this method is really overused. There are good usages of this though. There are 3 levels that gets vine from cutscene. But only one (The Vast Plain) gets more than one vine. It doesn't change that much, but at least it's not changing just one thing in a level.

Let's talk about minigames. In metroidvania games they are absolutely optional. Or player is forced to play one for the first time, but later tries are optional. Not in this game. All minigames are absolutely neccesery to get chests and progress through the game. That's really weird design decision.

Now let's talk about bonus coins. They are optional, I admit. But the way how they work isn't very metroidvania. You need to gather all 8 to get a reward. That's something that appears in many non exploration games. For example: 5 Yoshi coins in SMW, 8 red coins in SM64, 5 gems in Croc or even 100 gems in Klonoa. This also means that you can forget about gathering them until you get all powerups and unlock every path in the level. In other words - until the end of the game.

That's why, I have a problem in understanding why people call this game metroidvania. For me it's just a puzzle platformer. In fact, I would say WL3 is a combination of WL4 with SM64 and Monkey Island logic (for cutscenes).
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Re: Wario Land 3 - With input from Samus

Post by FPzero »

Coming from someone who lists Metroidvania as part of his favorite genres, it really isn't. It has some elements in using new powerups to progress in some stages, but overall it's exactly what you described. It's a mostly linear game, just with some powerups that allow for new level traversal at very specific times and places.

I feel like Metroidvania as a term is getting diluted these days, much the same as "roguelike" has.
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Re: Wario Land 3 - With input from Samus

Post by Leet »

I mean, I've seen standard randomly-generated-platformer Rogue Legacy described as a metroidvania and nobody on the steam forum but me seemed to understand why it wasn't

WL3 is a lot closer in comparison
Well it is a decent hack but sometime its just too repetitif there no level that actually pop in your face and your like oh yeah that level they all ressemble themselves and just monster along the way.
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Re: Wario Land 3 - With input from Samus

Post by Ashan »

There's a linear path you're expected to follow in the game but you also end up going back to earlier levels in the game with abilities you get later to get new treasures. That's pretty Metroidvania-esque
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Re: Wario Land 3 - With input from Samus

Post by raocow »

except you go back to past levels in a linear fashion. like it's not a choice, and you go back at very specific times.

Like right now I'm playing Hallow Knight and there are always like 3-5 things kinda hanging above my head in terms of things to look out for and just things going on in the world. WL3 is very much 'beat level go to next level', it's just that sometimes the next level is in a corner of an old one.
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Re: Wario Land 3 - With input from Samus

Post by Ashan »

For the main story stuff yeah but you can ignore the side branches with optional treasures and come back to them later

Look, it's not a perfect analogy but it's more Metroidvania-esque than like Super Mario World where a level is a level and it'll be the same no matter when you get to it in the game

...ignoring switch palaces...
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Re: Wario Land 3 - With input from Samus

Post by Crow »

super mario 64 is also a metroidvania because it's nonlinear and there are some unlockable powerups required to 100% the game

it isn't and neither is WL3, trying to stretch the term metroidvania to include more games just devalues the concept of the genre tb
i've honestly never played a video game in my life
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Re: Wario Land 3 - With input from Samus

Post by Dragon Fogel »

The thing is, a lot of Metroidvanias are pretty linear in terms of progression too. You get Upgrade and you can get past Obstacle and that takes you to New Area where you get New Upgrade. Then there's side paths that are purely optional and help you raise your completion percentage, and split paths that reconverge aren't exactly unheard of either.

In fact, now that I'm thinking about it, I'm pretty sure Castlevania: Order of Ecclesia has more constrained progression than WL3 and requires less backtracking to complete the game.
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Re: Wario Land 3 - With input from Samus

Post by Sebby19 »

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I agree, Wario Land 3 isn't a true metroidvania. But it is very Metriodvania-esque, with collecting powers and tools to access new areas in old ones being the core of the game. If all the levels were connected in one or 4 huge overworlds, it would definitely be 100% a metroidvania. But I think the level-format disqualifies it from that.
Mario 64 isn't a Metriodvania because the core of the game is not collecting powerups and tools to reach new areas of old ones. It's simply collecting stars. The 3 Cap Switches (or 1 Switch and 3 other characters in DS) are not the main focus, and are not required to beat the game (except Mario in DS)
Rayman 1 is a platformer, even if there are permanent powerups used to break more cages in early levels.

The REAL question: Is Kirby & the Amazing Mirror a metroidvania? Hmmm....
Last edited by Sebby19 5 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wario Land 3 - With input from Samus

Post by Sebby19 »

Story Time! With Wario Land 3.
The Chain of deals...
Tucked away in each watery area is the Anger Spell Book and the Anger Halberd. Wario combines them just like the previous spell book and cane.
Over on the South side, lightning suddenly rains from the sky, onto the other river that has the bridge. The lightning is so intense it blast away the ground, carving the river into the deep gorge the now known as The Steep Canyon. Rushing waters exist here too.
Hey raocow, how are you liking the flowchart so far?
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Re: Wario Land 3 - With input from Samus

Post by Ditocoaf »

It's metroidvania-y relative to other Wario games is probably what people mean. It's the most metroidvania-ish Wario game. Even if that just means it scores 0.4 on a scale where 0 means "not at all a metroidvania" and 1 means "is definitely a metroidvania", that's way higher than the 0 to 0.1 the other Wario Land games would get, so people might say "hey , this is kinda like a metroidvania".
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Re: Wario Land 3 - With input from Samus

Post by bbbrrr_it_cold »

Ditocoaf wrote: 5 years ago It's metroidvania-y relative to other Wario games is probably what people mean. It's the most metroidvania-ish Wario game. Even if that just means it scores 0.4 on a scale where 0 means "not at all a metroidvania" and 1 means "is definitely a metroidvania", that's way higher than the 0 to 0.1 the other Wario Land games would get, so people might say "hey , this is kinda like a metroidvania".
Also, to a lesser extent, Wario: Master of Disguise. If it ever required you to backtrack to an earlier level with the later power-ups, it'd be about the same. But all it ever requires is backtracking within the same level (or replaying old ones for optional stuff). This isn't really an agreement or a disagreement but instead an addition.
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Re: Wario Land 3 - With input from Samus

Post by Sebby19 »

tangeruse wrote: 5 years ago i wish <map></map> html image maps worked here. they would make everything a lot easier
I've been meaning to ask. Care to elaborate? I think I know what you're talking about, but I've never seen it myself.

Maybe you should bug Rena to use her sweat haxxor skills to implement them. That would be sweet.
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Re: Wario Land 3 - With input from Samus

Post by Alice »

Sebby19 wrote: 5 years agoI've been meaning to ask. Care to elaborate? I think I know what you're talking about, but I've never seen it myself.

Maybe you should bug Rena to use her sweat haxxor skills to implement them. That would be sweet.
It's a bit of a technical page but I believe this is what they're referring to.
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Re: Wario Land 3 - With input from Samus

Post by BobisOnlyBob »

christ I haven't seen image maps in like a decade, I almost thought for a moment they were deprecated in html5 but nope, there they are
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