cldc 2018 - layers
Re: ft029ldc2 2018 - fish
i think it's pretty funny how a huge majority of people (atleast in the youtube comment section) are saying that today's level was fair, enjoyable and good while yesterday's level was frustrating and bad, mostly basing it off of raocow's experience with it alone. because to me, today's level was way harder than yesterday's level and more tedious to play too, even though i liked both levels quite a bit. and it seems like the experience was similar for the judges, atleast for FP.
people just jump way too quickly from "raocow isn't enjoying this level" to "this is badly designed because it's too unforgiving" or whatever, but you can't really expect anything else i suppose. i think that a majority of those people would have atleast the same amount of frustration with today's level if they played along with raocow instead of just watching.
people just jump way too quickly from "raocow isn't enjoying this level" to "this is badly designed because it's too unforgiving" or whatever, but you can't really expect anything else i suppose. i think that a majority of those people would have atleast the same amount of frustration with today's level if they played along with raocow instead of just watching.
Re: ft029ldc2 2018 - fish
I think, at least for me, I started calling "JUMP-style" levels Gauntlet levels, because that's what it feels like. A similar design ethos to Kaizo without any of the implied difficulty or tricks. A series of challenges in a row to be beaten, usually focusing on a singular gimmick (and sometimes going on too long). It's even started developing a similar styling with consistent visual cues like more modern Kaizo has, as mentioned in Noivern's judge comments... Though that might just be more of a modern Vanilla-ish styling all things considered. I'm not a super big fan because I personally really like "regular" Mario platforming. It's part of what makes worldpeace's levels so good to me, instead of breaking up the action with small areas you can just stand still and catch your breath (or not at all like some people), they're broken up with (or involve) the aforementioned normal platforming.
This level felt far too much like it overstayed its welcome to me. I understand focusing on the fish gimmick, but it felt like three entire levels and not just one, since each area had a distinct fish gimmick. The difficulty was almost like a cherry on top lol.
This level felt far too much like it overstayed its welcome to me. I understand focusing on the fish gimmick, but it felt like three entire levels and not just one, since each area had a distinct fish gimmick. The difficulty was almost like a cherry on top lol.
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Re: ft029ldc2 2018 - fish
point 1: it's really easy to deflect criticism if you just claim the critics are sheeple following someone else, huh
point 2: is it actually so surprising enough people would prefer the difficultly of a level based around a very predictable enemy type rather than a level that's difficult because if you press too many buttons, you'll die that you have to resort to this tactic
point 3: even if there's actual truth to this, doesn't a person enjoying one thing pretty thoroughly while the other frustrates them to swearing when they normally don't really speak volumes anyway
Re: ft029ldc2 2018 - fish
I'm not really sure if it's just based on raocow's opinion. I could tell just from the footage that Exhaustion's 2nd half went on for so long without a checkpoint that it would've easily pissed me off as well. Plus, janky stuff like the insta-kill munchers that don't tell you they're insta-kill until you're dead. Fish at least put multiple midpoints in there to break things up, and there wasn't a bunch of obvious bugginess shown besides the ascension glitch. Then again, i was pretty forgiving of most of M/M's JUMP levels when I played them, so maybe it's just me.Nao wrote: ↑5 years ago i think it's pretty funny how a huge majority of people (atleast in the youtube comment section) are saying that today's level was fair, enjoyable and good while yesterday's level was frustrating and bad, mostly basing it off of raocow's experience with it alone. because to me, today's level was way harder than yesterday's level and more tedious to play too, even though i liked both levels quite a bit. and it seems like the experience was similar for the judges, atleast for FP.
people just jump way too quickly from "raocow isn't enjoying this level" to "this is badly designed because it's too unforgiving" or whatever, but you can't really expect anything else i suppose. i think that a majority of those people would have atleast the same amount of frustration with today's level if they played along with raocow instead of just watching.
Re: ft029ldc 2018 - stamina
Ah yeah, I totally understand that. And that is something that many hackers miss out on. Most of us admittedly make romhacks for other hackers, not for true beginners. However, I will also say that 90% of people that are downloading hacks are somewhat avid gamers and have probably played Super Mario World. I generally prefer creating hacks that appeal to an audience that has already been quite familiar with SMW and is ready for a much greater challenge. However, the community also needs people who realize that there are tons of beginners out there who need hacks that they will actually be able to play and enjoy.FPzero wrote: ↑5 years ago With Exhausted for me at least, I genuinely liked the first half of the level and tried to make sure to make my score reflected that. With Rainbow Trout, I didn't have that same feeling from the start. I thought it was cute to begin with, not too bad for difficulty but still challenging. But then it kept going and introducing new variations on the mechanic in progressively harder ways and it just became too much for me.
A lot of it is also my personal biases. I've never been the challenge designer when I do romhacks, usually shooting for a low difficulty that would be theoretically accessible to anyone who's never played a hack before. That mentality comes from the days of smashing my head against hard Super Metroid hacks back when the only ones that existed were all hard challenge hacks that required knowledge of glitch abuse or upgrade-deprivation challenges. Sure I got better at them, but I only stuck with them because I love that game and these hard hacks were all that existed. And I still can't really recommend any SM hacks to friends looking to try one out because although the hacks are easier these days, they're still usually at a level beyond what someone who's only casually played Super Metroid can beat. It's a "romhacks for romhackers only" paradox.
This drive for accessibility in my own projects does color my judgments of level difficulty even if I know the level isn't something a hacks newcomer will start playing randomly. Easier levels will probably score better if I'm judging because I can more calmly enjoy what I'm doing. There are always exceptions of course, but this is the trend I've noticed.
It's interesting to read your perspective on JUMP ethos. I will agree with you that JUMP creativity and high difficulty are not always linked. I loved worldpeace's VLDC9 level so much when I did my playthrough. It was the right level of challenging, yet lenient and I'd love to see more of that in contest levels instead of the more performance gauntlet style of levels I've rated lower in this contest.
It's interesting that you say that about Ice Cutting Site, cause that's more or less how I feel about Cerulean Cave (worldpeace's VLDCX level). He specifically designed it so that it would feel challenging, yet would play fairly easy. It's an interesting paradox that only worldpeace would strive to achieve I suppose lol (and he achieved it, not so surprisingly). Actually, the way you are talking makes me think you will like JUMP 1/2. It's easier than JUMP for sure, and most of the early game is very relaxed and fun. In fact, I would say that RAINBOW TROUT and Exhausted Mario second half are probably harder than 80-90% of what is in Jump 1/2. You'll be surprised to see designers known for tough levels make easy and simple levels. I think it's because, when this "group" (and whoever the heck is considered "in" it, whatever that means) makes contest entries, we tend to go *all out*. Both in difficulty and in style, substance, and gimmicks. Most of the Jump 1/2 levels ease players in pretty well. And actually, that's how a lot of Jump was as well, it was just a lot less forgiving and way harder. Funny enough, even though Jump 1/2 is a lot easier than Jump, it is also a lot more methodical and linear and "kaizo in style" than Jump.
I think it's funny that this has become the JUMP-style cause that is certainly not how most of the people who contributed to the first Jump make levels, or how most of the first hack even plays. You'll find that the levels that *do* feel like super long gauntlet levels are not very methodical at all, even though they can be extremely hard. So the whole "similar design ethos to Kaizo" is just not right at all when we are talking about the real original JUMP hack. Look at Depraved Stronghold for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVL-o6ieueg. This level is insanely hard but definitely not "kaizo" in style whatsoever. That's because there are many different ways to approach obstacles. There is freedom in movement, leeway for player decisions, and respect towards the player's mobility and choices. The original Kaizo also had that as well. But as Kaizo hacking evolved, it became this "do or die" style that you are referring to. This is where the whole "series of challenges in a row" came from: the modern Kaizo hack. Weirdly, though, the so called "Jump team" hasn't even made Jump 1/2 yet, so most of what you guys experience is from the contest entries. And yeah, like I said above, most of these contest entries are *exactly* what you mention. I just want to make a clarification point that JUMP is definitely not like that, and that a decent portion of Jump 1/2 isn't either. I also want to make sure you aren't deterred from playing Jump 1/2, thinking it will be all gauntlet levels.Tyty wrote:I think, at least for me, I started calling "JUMP-style" levels Gauntlet levels, because that's what it feels like. A similar design ethos to Kaizo without any of the implied difficulty or tricks. A series of challenges in a row to be beaten, usually focusing on a singular gimmick (and sometimes going on too long). It's even started developing a similar styling with consistent visual cues like more modern Kaizo has, as mentioned in Noivern's judge comments... Though that might just be more of a modern Vanilla-ish styling all things considered. I'm not a super big fan because I personally really like "regular" Mario platforming. It's part of what makes worldpeace's levels so good to me, instead of breaking up the action with small areas you can just stand still and catch your breath (or not at all like some people), they're broken up with (or involve) the aforementioned normal platforming.
This level felt far too much like it overstayed its welcome to me. I understand focusing on the fish gimmick, but it felt like three entire levels and not just one, since each area had a distinct fish gimmick. The difficulty was almost like a cherry on top lol.
To bring this full circle, I think the 2 people who made Rainbow Trout and Exhausted Mario are capable of much easier and more forgiving levels. Mandew mentioned at one point that contests are sometimes an opportunity for people to go all out and try wild crazy stuff that wouldn't normally fit in a hack.
Re: ft029ldc2 2018 - fish
That's exactly why I've started calling it something else. "Gauntlet" is way more applicable (It's hella common in Mario Maker too anymore, at least from what I've seen), and descriptive. It was just easy to call it JUMP-style when it first started becoming super prominent in contests.gbreeze wrote: I think it's funny that this has become the JUMP-style cause that is certainly not how most of the people who contributed to the first Jump make levels, or how most of the first hack even plays. You'll find that the levels that *do* feel like super long gauntlet levels are not very methodical at all, even though they can be extremely hard. So the whole "similar design ethos to Kaizo" is just not right at all when we are talking about the real original JUMP hack.
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Re: ft029ldc2 2018 - fish
I'd play an entire platformer game featuring a fish-friend-summoning ability like that.
Re: ft029ldc2 2018 - fish
Yeah, I understand that. I mean, you can call it whatever you'd like of course, though Gauntlet makes me think of stuff like Bits and Pieces or Depraved Stronghold, not this lol. But it's important to note that the people who have contributed to Jump projects all have wildly different design styles, and I think that assuming that each super hard methodical gimmicky level in each contest is a Jumper level, and nothing else is, it kinda gives false attribution to the hack and the people involved. I mean, Nightspace was made by someone on the Jump 1/2 team, and I haven't seen anyone call it a Jump level. Mandew is never note for making levels like that. So in that sense, I like them being called gauntlet levels better, even if it gives me Bits and Pieces ptsd lol.Tyty wrote: ↑5 years agoThat's exactly why I've started calling it something else. "Gauntlet" is way more applicable (It's hella common in Mario Maker too anymore, at least from what I've seen), and descriptive. It was just easy to call it JUMP-style when it first started becoming super prominent in contests.gbreeze wrote: I think it's funny that this has become the JUMP-style cause that is certainly not how most of the people who contributed to the first Jump make levels, or how most of the first hack even plays. You'll find that the levels that *do* feel like super long gauntlet levels are not very methodical at all, even though they can be extremely hard. So the whole "similar design ethos to Kaizo" is just not right at all when we are talking about the real original JUMP hack.
I haven't played a ton of Mario Maker so I'm not totally sure haha. But it's like, totally up to you what you'd like to call anything, and I also understand if you and fpzero thought this level was tiring too! personal preferences, that's all :D
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Re: ft029ldc2 2018 - fish
'Guantlet' makes me think of mediaeval jousting. Now that I look it up, Wikipedia tells me that there is the phrase "run the gauntlet":
So I think we should reserve the term gauntlet level to refer to those levels where you are running at full pelt through an urban landscape."Running the gauntlet" was a military punishment in which a soldier or sailor had to pass between a double row of comrades armed with cudgels. The expression is now generally used metaphorically. Gauntlet in this context is unrelated to the "protective glove" meaning, but is instead derived from the Swedish gatlopp ("street run").
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Re: ft029ldc2 2018 - fish
That's a different franchise entirely, though.morsel/morceau wrote: ↑5 years ago So I think we should reserve the term gauntlet level to refer to those levels where you are running at full pelt through an urban landscape.
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Re: ft029ldc2 2018 - fish
it is surprising to me, yes, because the precision the fish level requires is much higher than the precision required for the exhaustion level. i think that point is more obvious when playing the level yourself though rather than watching raocow play. there is some obstacles in the fish level where you basically take a hit 90% of the time, which can also be seen in raocow's playthrough if you pay close attention (precise jumps over a muncher with a fish, just to give an example).Arctangent wrote: ↑5 years agopoint 1: it's really easy to deflect criticism if you just claim the critics are sheeple following someone else, huh
point 2: is it actually so surprising enough people would prefer the difficultly of a level based around a very predictable enemy type rather than a level that's difficult because if you press too many buttons, you'll die that you have to resort to this tactic
point 3: even if there's actual truth to this, doesn't a person enjoying one thing pretty thoroughly while the other frustrates them to swearing when they normally don't really speak volumes anyway
also i was never deflecting criticism, i was just saying that i'm amused about the huge amount of negativity towards the exhaustion level compared to the fish level, when in reality most of the people these criticism come from would be frustrated immensly with both of these levels.
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Re: ft029ldc2 2018 - fish
For me, "JUMP-style" gameplay is peak design for experienced players - take one to three mechanics, demonstrate them, explore them, mix them, remix them, wring every last bit of potential out of them. I love that. I literally can't think of a style of gameplay I prefer in a platformer like this.
Re: ft029ldc2 2018 - fish
So what you're saying is today's second level was a gauntlet? Unless sledding doesn't qualify.morsel/morceau wrote: ↑5 years ago 'Guantlet' makes me think of mediaeval jousting. Now that I look it up, Wikipedia tells me that there is the phrase "run the gauntlet":So I think we should reserve the term gauntlet level to refer to those levels where you are running at full pelt through an urban landscape."Running the gauntlet" was a military punishment in which a soldier or sailor had to pass between a double row of comrades armed with cudgels. The expression is now generally used metaphorically. Gauntlet in this context is unrelated to the "protective glove" meaning, but is instead derived from the Swedish gatlopp ("street run").
Full disclosure: I never realized you could go in the factory when judging. I was just always up high in the level and had no reason to check the low path after getting the midpoint once, or think that there was an alternate path at all. I didn't check the level in LM either so...I'm only seeing the factory portion for the first time now... Crap, I might've rated it a little higher because I liked some of what I saw there just from raocow sledding past. Don't know if that should be on me for not being thorough or on the level for not hinting at the split paths in the slightest. I mean, both paths lead to the same exit.
Re: ft029ldc2 2018 - fish
It's worth noting that mellonpizza helped immensely with the ASM in Smasher Stronghold.
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Re: ft029ldc2 2018 - fish
Although raocow claimed the fall through the intangible platform in the hammer level to be his own fault, I (as a viewer at least) had the same expectation about them as he did, and on further inspection I'd say it's also an issue of conveyance. The graphics used for those intangible tiles look almost identical to a floor that you can land on at other points, only slightly differing in color. True, the intangible platform was introduced above the tangible platform before that, which might allow a player to learn this distinction on paper, but I think it didn't click because for one, they still look extremely similar at a glance, and two, the first obstacle has you jumping at it from the side, which doesn't make it absolutely clear that the platform is completely non-solid, instead of just go-through from the sides and bottom like ropes.
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Re: ft029ldc2 2018 - fish
I am slightly disappointed that the background music for Reactive Factory wasn't a SMW port of this:
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Re: ft029ldc2 2018 - fish
Is it ironic that I cannot design in this "JUMP-style". Heck, I can't design period lol
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Re: ft029ldc2 2018 - fish
i mean, MSU-1 is a thing.AlchemistHohenheim wrote: ↑5 years ago I am slightly disappointed that the background music for Reactive Factory wasn't a SMW port of this:
Re: CumpLDC 2018 - hammer
Yeah, that's a completely fair point. It is pretty much always good to assume darker palettes means the platform is "in the background", but even I forget that little rule (espeically in The Crater in World 2 where there are cement blocks that look like they're in the foreground, and you're likely to get lasered if you don't figure that out. It's a little more forgiving though.)This Eye o' Mine wrote: ↑5 years ago Although raocow claimed the fall through the intangible platform in the hammer level to be his own fault, I (as a viewer at least) had the same expectation about them as he did, and on further inspection I'd say it's also an issue of conveyance. The graphics used for those intangible tiles look almost identical to a floor that you can land on at other points, only slightly differing in color. True, the intangible platform was introduced above the tangible platform before that, which might allow a player to learn this distinction on paper, but I think it didn't click because for one, they still look extremely similar at a glance, and two, the first obstacle has you jumping at it from the side, which doesn't make it absolutely clear that the platform is completely non-solid, instead of just go-through from the sides and bottom like ropes.
So yeah, my fault. I learned my lesson. I should've drawn a different tile instead of being lazy.
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Just to answer some questions:
--The beginning is a clip from here. The sample was cutoff midway because I forgot to extend the logo (full spc).
--All the songs in order:
Earthworm Jim - Anything But Tangerines
TLoZ:ALttP - Black Mist [ggamer77 Rearrangement]
Final Fantasy 4 - Illusionary World
Yoshi's Island - Before Boss
"Deep Dark Determination" [Self-composed Song made by me]
SMRPG - Fight Against Bowser
--Mario flips the bird because I am an edgy edgy edgelord who does edgy things and other edgy things i'm so edgy yo
(actually I reused a Mario sprite from one of my Kaizo hacks for the hell of it, plus I thought it was funny.)
Fun Fact: I had two other ideas before settling with the hammer powerup. One was a train stage with music with samples chosen by my good buddy Scooter102089 (here's what I had), the other was a castle stage based on "Howl's Moving Castle" where I wanted to work with Eevee known for Sicari Remastered, but he wasn't interested.
Fun Fact 2: Because of the above, Smash Stronghold only had a development time of around 10 days. Good oh' JUMP habits, always in a rush. This explains why I reused a lot of assets from my previous projects, as well (the song, the graphics, and edgy Mario).
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Re: CumpLDC 2018 - hammer
Smasher Stronghold
Placement: 16
Codename: cannibal
Author: Daizo Dee Von & Mellonpizza
Sledding Through the Reactive Factory
Placement: 22
Codename: boundary
Author: Strikeforcer
i gave pizza / daizos level the codename cannibal bcus of cannibal corpse song hammer smashed face. i gave strikeforcers level boundary bcus the incessant level gimmick.
nice.
Placement: 16
Codename: cannibal
Author: Daizo Dee Von & Mellonpizza
Placement: 22
Codename: boundary
Author: Strikeforcer
nice.
Re: CumpLDC 2018 - hammer
lookin forward to mump
Why don't you eat me?
I am perfectly tasty...
AND I'LL STEAL YOUR SOUL!
I am perfectly tasty...
AND I'LL STEAL YOUR SOUL!
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Re: CLDC LP 2018 - fish puzzle
CLDC Level
Placement: 26
Codename: ferocity
Author: Manofer
Cooking with Gordon
Placement: 11
Codename: deleted
Author: Miku & Wind Fish
CLDC 2018-The Level
Placement: 31
Codename: unknown
Author: Somebody for sure
didnt like any of these levels, surprised at how generous the judging on manofers level was from noivern & blind devil. i mean 40/60 for that? the reason why wind fishs level was codenamed deleted was bcus he originally submitted a different level very early on, it wasnt that good and this is,,, laterally better. i wasnt a fan of this level either, its the same setups ad nauseum sandwiching a weird ice / fire key room. the last level is horrible and kinda speaks for itself, but i do enjoy the invisible block gimmick the first time.
Placement: 26
Codename: ferocity
Author: Manofer
Placement: 11
Codename: deleted
Author: Miku & Wind Fish
Placement: 31
Codename: unknown
Author: Somebody for sure
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Re: CLDC LP 2018 - fish puzzle
I like the music in the second level. Not enough people use Plok music in things in my opinion, and it goes very well with the space and food theme. The whole package feels very "90's platformer". That just makes the part where you have to feed the thing to the creature that much more out of place though.
I think a large part of the first level feeling empty is to do with the HUD being removed, but absolutely nothing being put in its place. It basically feels to me like you've had information taken away from you for no reason, practical or aesthetic or otherwise.
I think a large part of the first level feeling empty is to do with the HUD being removed, but absolutely nothing being put in its place. It basically feels to me like you've had information taken away from you for no reason, practical or aesthetic or otherwise.