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MAGLX3 - Pre-Discussion/Feedback Thread

would you like to participate in some fun contests? would you like to create some fun contests? well ^_^
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Re: MAGLX3 - Pre-Discussion/Feedback Thread

Postby Zygl » 2 years ago

Why are we suddenly making a fuss over not running into ContentID on the designer's end? Just tell people not to use obviously dumb choices like "Smells Like Teen Spirit" or the latest Beyoncé hit single or whatever the heck and leave it at that, same as we always have. Unless I've been living under a rock since 2014 this has never been a significant problem before, and if all else fails as I recall X1's Koopa Holiday Paradise's underground section had its music removed for the LP, we can just do that if it's that pressing an issue.
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Re: MAGLX3 - Pre-Discussion/Feedback Thread

Postby Zha Hong Lang » 2 years ago

Bringing up again the post which got lost in the other thread, how are we going to treat levels like Fawriel's? They can turn out nice I guess, but I think we can agree that it's not what most of us are looking for in a MaGL(X) entry. So should we discourage them in MaGLX3? If so, what should be the specific wording in the signup thread?
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Re: MAGLX3 - Pre-Discussion/Feedback Thread

Postby SAJewers » 2 years ago

Grounder wrote: My suggestion is "find a decent MIDI version or soundfont cover to use"

MIDI not being completely literal, of course.
If only SMBX used munt instead of adlmidi.
ano0maly wrote:
SAJewers wrote: So, what are the plans to make sure custom music doesn't get flagged by ContentID?

That would be a job of the host and possibly judges (and other contributors volunteering).

What can be done is

1. State in the instructions to the contestants that they should use music tracks safe to use, or should at least understand that they will be checked.

2. As you suggested in the previous thread, the showrunners and volunteers could test them on Youtube to see if they're clear.
Yeah, having a repository of music that people can only use from (with anyone being allowed to suggest/contribute) would be the best idea.

Wouldn't need to check every song though, as I already know certain games/publishers/composers that can't be used.
Zyglrox Odyssey wrote: Why are we suddenly making a fuss over not running into ContentID on the designer's end? Just tell people not to use obviously dumb choices like "Smells Like Teen Spirit" or the latest Beyoncé hit single or whatever the heck and leave it at that, same as we always have. Unless I've been living under a rock since 2014 this has never been a significant problem before, and if all else fails as I recall X1's Koopa Holiday Paradise's underground section had its music removed for the LP, we can just do that if it's that pressing an issue.
There were quite a few songs on ASMBXT and A2XT1 that had to be changed because of ContentID, and aside from 1, they weren't "dumb choices".

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Re: MAGLX3 - Pre-Discussion/Feedback Thread

Postby ztarwuff » 2 years ago

As far as contentID is concerned, perhaps it would be best to suggest sources for designers? I've been plucking out of Newgrounds for ages now.

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Re: MAGLX3 - Pre-Discussion/Feedback Thread

Postby SAJewers » 2 years ago

I'd still personally have a curated source for stuff, along with sites like NG that we an assume is fine
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Re: MAGLX3 - Pre-Discussion/Feedback Thread

Postby Ignoritus » 2 years ago

Jayoshi wrote: Bringing up again the post which got lost in the other thread, how are we going to treat levels like Fawriel's? They can turn out nice I guess, but I think we can agree that it's not what most of us are looking for in a MaGL(X) entry. So should we discourage them in MaGLX3?
No. It's not for any one person to decide what qualifies a 'proper level'. I quite enjoyed Fawriel's entry. If the judges don't approve, then that's their own prerogative. Nothing good can come from trying to externally control what entries attempt to do.
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Re: MAGLX3 - Pre-Discussion/Feedback Thread

Postby Willhart » 2 years ago

I'm starting to feel a bit hyped. It's probably too early for that though.

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Re: MAGLX3 - Pre-Discussion/Feedback Thread

Postby Zha Hong Lang » 2 years ago

Ignoritus wrote: No. It's not for any one person to decide what qualifies a 'proper level'. I quite enjoyed Fawriel's entry. If the judges don't approve, then that's their own prerogative. Nothing good can come from trying to externally control what entries attempt to do.
Personally, while there should be as few restrictions on a level as possible, I think it's fair to draw some boundaries. For example, since a level like Fawriel's is not strictly based on gameplay, then how do we judge it in a videogame contest? It's still possible to use Sturg's rubric, but it would have to be evaluated differently to address the nuances in composition relevant to that genre. This would necessitate judges who have experience with those measures, or else levels like Fawriel's would be poorly evaluated. If a judge likes one of such levels more than another, they'd have a hard time articulating why if that genre's not their area of expertise.

But do judges really need to be selected particularly for their ability to evaluate such things, in a videogame contest? Priorities need to be considered in selection, and choosing one for something that's unrelated to gameplay or videogame aesthetic is a strange priority for a contest where both gameplay and aesthetic are essential--and the third metric is optional.

Just so I'm not misunderstood, I'm not saying that a level like Fawriel's should be disqualified in the next contest, but it should be evaluated on the terms of being a videogame level. And if it doesn't hold up on that end, its score should reflect that fact. However, it's also possible a level like Fawriel's could hold up on both ends--and it'd be all the better for it.

(As a disclaimer, I actually though Fawriel's level was rather nice when I first watched it, and I still think it's a great leap of faith for what it did. However, looking back I kinda find the content of the level akin to spoon-fed gravy. It was sweet and informative the first time, but it started to look pretentious and awkward after seeing it more than once. It doesn't resonate with me the same way that other, similar content has.)
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Re: MAGLX3 - Pre-Discussion/Feedback Thread

Postby ano0maly » 2 years ago

SAJewers wrote: Yeah, having a repository of music that people can only use from (with anyone being allowed to suggest/contribute) would be the best idea.

Wouldn't need to check every song though, as I already know certain games/publishers/composers that can't be used.
I meant that the host and contributors check through the levels and test the music after they're submitted, and contact the contestant if there's a problem. I didn't mean that we have a pre-approved list of music and you can only choose from that pool. I don't think that's necessary unless it's a music-based event like Sebby's idea or it's a project with a specific design where that can be helpful.
Jayoshi wrote: Bringing up again the post which got lost in the other thread, how are we going to treat levels like Fawriel's? They can turn out nice I guess, but I think we can agree that it's not what most of us are looking for in a MaGL(X) entry. So should we discourage them in MaGLX3? If so, what should be the specific wording in the signup thread?
The way to handle the Fawriel situation is to state something on what kind of a contest MAGLX3 is. It's a matter of expectations. Does it expect a traditional SMBX gameplay, or does it anticipate a broader scope of enjoyment that includes experience-type adventures?

When Horikawa Otane and Quill gave Fawriel's level a pretty high score (and favorites) and Sturg gave it a lower score (not saying that he would do the same this time, necessarily), the viewers were polarized because they had different ideas on what would be appropriate for levels in the contest. Some really liked it because it really was "a nice level", whereas others were sorely disappointed because they did not get what they fundamentally expected from a level made in SMBX. Simply put, a well-done interactive movie can't substitute for a platforming game - but only when you specifically expected a platforming game in the first place.

Saying affirmatively "Yes, it's a make anything contest and those kinds of experience levels with adventures are part of the scope of this contest" isn't the same as not saying anything. If the contest has no stated expectation of its own, then people are going to insert their own idea on what the contest is, and some of them will view the contest much more narrowly in scope. By declaring the contest scope broadly, both judges and viewers would know that a given genre is appropriate for the purposes of the contest, even if the genre is not to their personal tastes. And if the contest expectation is more specific, then levels that do not meet it would be marked down, even if they're good-quality productions of a different kind.
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Re: MAGLX3 - Pre-Discussion/Feedback Thread

Postby The Destroyer of Worlds » 2 years ago

Enjl wrote: My post might not be as flashy or wowie but sedron as judge is something I vouch for too.
Me as well.
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Re: MAGLX3 - Pre-Discussion/Feedback Thread

Postby Zha Hong Lang » 2 years ago

ano0maly wrote:
Jayoshi wrote: Bringing up again the post which got lost in the other thread, how are we going to treat levels like Fawriel's? They can turn out nice I guess, but I think we can agree that it's not what most of us are looking for in a MaGL(X) entry. So should we discourage them in MaGLX3? If so, what should be the specific wording in the signup thread?
The way to handle the Fawriel situation is to state something on what kind of a contest MAGLX3 is. It's a matter of expectations. Does it expect a traditional SMBX gameplay, or does it anticipate a broader scope of enjoyment that includes experience-type adventures?

<details>
That's something I can agree with.

I wonder what Sturg has to say on this, though... this is all just empty words without his input.
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Re: MAGLX3 - Pre-Discussion/Feedback Thread

Postby Dragon Fogel » 2 years ago

Regarding judging: I sent Sturg a PM about it and he said he's expecting to hold applications this summer. His plan is to send people sample levels to judge, to get a sense of how they do it.

Also, a suggestion: each entrant should be asked to include a brief explanation (probably in a text file) of how they used the assigned things in their level. I remember there were cases in the past where judges couldn't see the relevance of the level name (or the cards in MAFAB), and it would be good if they could check against the level maker's intention.

Of course, judges should still play the level first and mark down their initial impression, because what gets conveyed during the level is important. The explanations would just be so they can decide if they want to change that afterwards. Mostly it's a protection against overlooking something.
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Re: MAGLX3 - Pre-Discussion/Feedback Thread

Postby The Destroyer of Worlds » 2 years ago

Ignoritus wrote:
Jayoshi wrote: Bringing up again the post which got lost in the other thread, how are we going to treat levels like Fawriel's? They can turn out nice I guess, but I think we can agree that it's not what most of us are looking for in a MaGL(X) entry. So should we discourage them in MaGLX3?
No. It's not for any one person to decide what qualifies a 'proper level'. I quite enjoyed Fawriel's entry. If the judges don't approve, then that's their own prerogative. Nothing good can come from trying to externally control what entries attempt to do.
I agree with Ignoritus. To me, MaGL X has always been a place that emphasizes experimental design and outside perspectives. I would never try to encourage specific kinds of levels or try to dissuade other kinds of levels. I get that some people had a negative reaction to Fawriel's level, and some of us had an extremely positive one. That's good. That means we're really seeing new, challenging sorts of design philosophies. To me, that's the whole point.

Sturg can do whatever he wants, really, but that's not the direction I would take at all.
Dragon Fogel wrote: Regarding judging: I sent Sturg a PM about it and he said he's expecting to hold applications this summer. His plan is to send people sample levels to judge, to get a sense of how they do it.
I think this is brilliant, actually.
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Re: MAGLX3 - Pre-Discussion/Feedback Thread

Postby Sebby19 » 2 years ago

Dragon Fogel wrote: Regarding judging: I sent Sturg a PM about it and he said he's expecting to hold applications this summer. His plan is to send people sample levels to judge, to get a sense of how they do it.
Oh my gosh that is such a good idea.
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Re: MAGLX3 - Pre-Discussion/Feedback Thread

Postby ano0maly » 2 years ago

A very polarized reaction to a level doesn't make the situation automatically good or "experimental", though. It can also mean that there's a confusion on something as basic as what the contest is supposed to be about. We don't have to assume that saying less and defining less always makes the contest better. I wouldn't explicitly discourage things like Fawriel's level, but it can help to formalize what the contest wants.

If experimental and innovative designs are welcome, then it's better to actually state this. Spelling out the philosophy of the contest not only expresses what can be appropriate but what has to be given a fair and equal consideration. If you affirm the broad scope and freedom of design, then even if certain viewers don't care much for a certain design like "a nice level", they have to acknowledge that the contest finds the design acceptable. If you say nothing, they're not obligated to respect that freedom when other people assumed that the contest gave them that freedom.
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Re: MAGLX3 - Pre-Discussion/Feedback Thread

Postby sedron » 2 years ago

Okay let's see if typing this mobile works.

Re: ContentID- Has the system actually caught stuff in the ASMBXT/MAGLX LPs? I'm not sure how big of a deal the music is with raocow talking over it and other noises. I'd like to keep the musical restrictions to a minimum; musical choice is a huge part of the level design process and keeping that choice free to the creator is part of why I didn't particularly like Sebbys contest proposal.

If we need to do something I imagine just testing the music as was done for A2XT should suffice. By all means a source of music like Newgrounds can be included with whatever other resources we want to offer to contestants (like the graphics packs,) but I wouldn't want to limit contestants to just those sources.

Re: Fawriels level- This sounds an awful lot like the argument that resulted in the "Other people's enjoyment" part of last contests scoring rubric. I think the contest has always been pretty clear that you can do basically whatever you want. I wouldn't argue that Fawriels level was mechanically interesting but it absolutely has its place in the contest and I don't want to discourage that kind of work. The scoring rubric, assuming it looks similar to the last one, should be reasonable for judging those sorts of levels.
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Re: MAGLX3 - Pre-Discussion/Feedback Thread

Postby SAJewers » 2 years ago

IIRC a Sptentrion (or was it pholtos?) video testing levels with commentary got claimed. Plus I believe raocow has said before he's gotten claims from vanilla SMW music.
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Re: MAGLX3 - Pre-Discussion/Feedback Thread

Postby sedron » 2 years ago

SAJewers wrote: IIRC a Sptentrion (or was it pholtos?) video testing levels with commentary got claimed. Plus I believe raocow has said before he's gotten claims from vanilla SMW music.
If that's the case then testing the music is definitely a good idea.

The other thing I'd recommend that I don't think is too limiting is just not allowing default SMBX music. I actually don't think that's too bad an idea just in general since a lot of the default music has been done to death. If we so desired we could have a specific devkit made for the contest (like ASMBXT,) and just make sure the default songs aren't a problem, but that has its own range of challenges and problems.
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Re: MAGLX3 - Pre-Discussion/Feedback Thread

Postby SAJewers » 2 years ago

Can't find the exact thing where he told me it got claimed (probably lost in the talkhaustrophe), but I did find this:
SAJewers wrote: Also, Back a few months ago when Septentrion's video review of Sloppy Sands got nailed with a Youtube ContentID violation for using Donkey Kong Returns, I was also told that a video review of Wooden Platforms Hanging in the Sky was nailed as well, which used the Defualt SMB3 Sky music (itself a remix from Galaxy 2 STTB used). I'm starting to think it might be a good idea to swap that out, as well as look at other songs currently used that might trigger contentID violations. Thoughts?
So yeah, music will get flagged even with Commentary.
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Re: MAGLX3 - Pre-Discussion/Feedback Thread

Postby The Destroyer of Worlds » 2 years ago

ano0maly wrote: A very polarized reaction to a level doesn't make the situation automatically good or "experimental", though. It can also mean that there's a confusion on something as basic as what the contest is supposed to be about. We don't have to assume that saying less and defining less always makes the contest better. I wouldn't explicitly discourage things like Fawriel's level, but it can help to formalize what the contest wants.

If experimental and innovative designs are welcome, then it's better to actually state this. Spelling out the philosophy of the contest not only expresses what can be appropriate but what has to be given a fair and equal consideration. If you affirm the broad scope and freedom of design, then even if certain viewers don't care much for a certain design like "a nice level", they have to acknowledge that the contest finds the design acceptable. If you say nothing, they're not obligated to respect that freedom when other people assumed that the contest gave them that freedom.
I mean, to me the rubric is what informs the shape the contest will take and which levels are "appropriate" for it. So I'd take a look at Sturg's rubric very closely to see whether it encourages creativity and innovation or more standard, more uniform level design.

I'd never encourage a showrunner to send out a note saying "here's what I'm looking for" or "here's what I'm not looking for." That's so artificial and I can't help but think it'll force levels into too uniform a pattern. Instead, you need to encourage or discourage level kinds subtly - via the rubric and the gimmick specifically. Also with your contest mission statement (one reason I made everyone declare one).
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Re: MAGLX3 - Pre-Discussion/Feedback Thread

Postby LunarNeedle » 2 years ago

I've stated my piece on this before but I'd maybe allow the level creator to explain themselves if major confusion on the level theme is seen among judges, but that in itself has issues. I've perfectly content with this.

On the discussion of content ID, generally give the advice of "If you can find a video with the music used that isn't flagged, it should be good." Also ask for a credit list of resources and music to aid in verification.
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Re: MAGLX3 - Pre-Discussion/Feedback Thread

Postby Tyty » 2 years ago

I think I mentioned it in the voting but I'm not sure on the difficulty option, it feels to me like everyone is just going to take hard. Why would you ever take the normal option if you're trying to win?

I'm kinda iffy on the forced NPC as well, but that's more because I'm still not used to SMBX and it's reminding me of some of the sprites that got given to people in MAGL2. I'm sure that one can work out though since NPCs are much more flexible.

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Re: MAGLX3 - Pre-Discussion/Feedback Thread

Postby sedron » 2 years ago

Tyty wrote: I think I mentioned it in the voting but I'm not sure on the difficulty option, it feels to me like everyone is just going to take hard. Why would you ever take the normal option if you're trying to win?

I'm kinda iffy on the forced NPC as well, but that's more because I'm still not used to SMBX and it's reminding me of some of the sprites that got given to people in MAGL2. I'm sure that one can work out though since NPCs are much more flexible.
I'd imagine the difficulty option would play out like the naming difficulty options in the last two contests. People definitely took Easy and Medium names. Some people aren't looking for that much constraint on their themes, and some people aren't looking to make the absolute best level of the contest. Sometimes it's even worth sacrificing a point or two to get the easier options (there have definitely been plenty of high ranking levels within the past contests that did not take Hard names.)

As for the NPCs, I'm gonna argue that it will end up being far less constricting than it seems like at first glance. SMBX has far more playable characters, npcs and blocks than SMW does so there's a lot more room to design around a given NPC. Designing around an NPC that's tough for Mario might not be as intense for Link, or maybe your NPC interacts or otherwise combines with another NPC in an interesting way. SMBX also allows designers to mess with NPC sprites and flags, so you'd presumably have freedom there too.

Plus, I'm gonna assume we're not going to have truly terrible NPCs to design around like MAGL2 did.
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Re: MAGLX3 - Pre-Discussion/Feedback Thread

Postby Dragon Fogel » 2 years ago

Yeah, it doesn't sound like the NPCs are "fully defined custom resources". It's more like if you got a level name with "Thwomps" or "Bob-Ombs" in it in one of the previous contests. Plus you get a choice of NPCs.

The issue with MAGL 2's boxes was that some of the "pieces" were just straight-up bad.

I guess you might get some people who opt to just spam their level with one of the NPCs, but it's not like MAGL X or X2 stopped them from doing that.
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Re: MAGLX3 - Pre-Discussion/Feedback Thread

Postby Ignoritus » 2 years ago

for my words i pick 'heavy' 'water' and 'rinka' ok?
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