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So You Want to Run MaGL X3? - Stay Tuned for Voting

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Re: So You Want to Run MaGL X3? 3/19/2017 11:59pm EST - ☆彡ENDING SOON!☆彡

Postby ztarwuff » 8 months ago

Horikawa Otane wrote: To basically lay out how things will work - I'm currently working on a site where voting will be held. After the submission phase ends, I'll get in touch with previous show runners/judges (myself, 8flight, ignoritus, Sturg, quill) and they'll be able to endorse an idea (provided they want to and provided they aren't running themselves). Then, after either a week or everyone endorses (whichever is first), I'll post the site and you can all vote!
Cool, but remember first past the post is objectively the worst voting system.

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Re: So You Want to Run MaGL X3? 3/19/2017 11:59pm EST - ☆彡ENDING SOON!☆彡

Postby Horikawa Otane » 8 months ago

ztarwuff wrote:
Horikawa Otane wrote: To basically lay out how things will work - I'm currently working on a site where voting will be held. After the submission phase ends, I'll get in touch with previous show runners/judges (myself, 8flight, ignoritus, Sturg, quill) and they'll be able to endorse an idea (provided they want to and provided they aren't running themselves). Then, after either a week or everyone endorses (whichever is first), I'll post the site and you can all vote!
Cool, but remember first past the post is objectively the worst voting system.
I know this came up last election - but what alternatives do you have? I'm a bit hesitant to have multiple phases of votes, since that will elongate this process and each round will have subsequently less people voting (and thus reduce the input to only a particular subset of a particular subset of people. In that way the vote becomes less representative of the audience per-round of voting). We obviously can't have multiple showrunners (unless the winning showrunner wants to co-showrun with 2nd place or something - that's cool. But that's obviously up to the winner).

I just don't know what better options we really have.
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Re: So You Want to Run MaGL X3? 3/19/2017 11:59pm EST - ☆彡ENDING SOON!☆彡

Postby Ditocoaf » 8 months ago

Instant Runoff Voting is usually the main thing people advocate, doesn't require multiple rounds. Your ballot is just an ordered list -- rank some candidates (all of them, or just a couple of your favorites, or just vote for one), done, you've voted. Counting the votes is the only complexity: (1) Count all the voters' first choices. (2) Take the last place candidate, drop them from the race, and move all their voters to their various next-choices. (3) Repeat step 2 until one candidate has >50% of the vote.

Another, simple-as-can-be option that often works better than FPTP is just "approval voting". Let voters vote for as many candidates as they like, instead of just one (note: if you vote for everyone, you've rendered your vote meaningless). In effect all voters get a "yea" or "nay" to each candidate, and the candidate with the most "yeas" wins.

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Re: So You Want to Run MaGL X3? 3/19/2017 11:59pm EST - ☆彡ENDING SOON!☆彡

Postby SAJewers » 8 months ago

I say we do Single Transferable Vote. (slightly being facetious here, though it's not a bad from of voting)
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Re: So You Want to Run MaGL X3? 3/19/2017 11:59pm EST - ☆彡ENDING SOON!☆彡

Postby Willhart » 8 months ago

I think simple voting is probably the best.
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Re: So You Want to Run MaGL X3? 3/19/2017 11:59pm EST - ☆彡ENDING SOON!☆彡

Postby ztarwuff » 8 months ago

Horikawa Otane wrote: I know this came up last election - but what alternatives do you have? I'm a bit hesitant to have multiple phases of votes, since that will elongate this process and each round will have subsequently less people voting (and thus reduce the input to only a particular subset of a particular subset of people. In that way the vote becomes less representative of the audience per-round of voting). We obviously can't have multiple showrunners (unless the winning showrunner wants to co-showrun with 2nd place or something - that's cool. But that's obviously up to the winner).

I just don't know what better options we really have.
The simplest method to enact is approval voting, as Ditocoaf suggested. The good thing about approval voting is that you can create the poll on these forums quite easily. When you create it, just allow the voter to choose all X options. It's also really good if you're with a group of friends on the town, and you need to decide between three options; you just list out the options, count the number of raised hands for each one, then go with the option that had the most votes.

CGPGrey has a few really good examples of how the voting system plays out:




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Re: So You Want to Run MaGL X3? 3/19/2017 11:59pm EST - ☆彡ENDING SOON!☆彡

Postby Zha Hong Lang » 8 months ago

Stepping in to say that approval voting is, in my opinion, the best way to go. I think its simplicity compared to most systems combined with the fact that it's more representative than FPTP makes it a very economically viable option.

Also, is it just me or does this voting process - especially the "endorsement" part - seem like politics? :P
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Re: So You Want to Run MaGL X3? 3/19/2017 11:59pm EST - ☆彡ENDING SOON!☆彡

Postby Horikawa Otane » 8 months ago

Jayoshi wrote: Stepping in to say that approval voting is, in my opinion, the best way to go. I think its simplicity compared to most systems combined with the fact that it's more representative than FPTP makes it a very economically viable option.

Also, is it just me or does this voting process - especially the "endorsement" part - seem like politics? :P
The "endorsement" part is almost entirely practical and it's something that we've been transparent about for literal years now. It isn't intended to be political. Basically, those of us who know how to run a contest as large as MaGL X have some practical experience other people don't.

So if someone comes up with no experience, but has a cool idea that sounds good on paper, but would never work in practice (or promises a gazillion judges or something), it's our own little way of putting our hand on the scales slightly to promote ideas that have slightly more chance of actually working out in reality.

How much this matters? idk. It is likely our endorsements might just be ignored, and that's fine. But even if X3 doesn't reach anywhere near the levels of X2 or even X1, it IS an enormous project and so we want to at least try to influence, even if it's only slightly, the contest in a direction that is more likely to be successful. In practice it'll just be like "8flight :-D" next to a name on the poll.
Ditocoaf wrote: Instant Runoff Voting is usually the main thing people advocate, doesn't require multiple rounds. Your ballot is just an ordered list -- rank some candidates (all of them, or just a couple of your favorites, or just vote for one), done, you've voted. Counting the votes is the only complexity: (1) Count all the voters' first choices. (2) Take the last place candidate, drop them from the race, and move all their voters to their various next-choices. (3) Repeat step 2 until one candidate has >50% of the vote.

Another, simple-as-can-be option that often works better than FPTP is just "approval voting". Let voters vote for as many candidates as they like, instead of just one (note: if you vote for everyone, you've rendered your vote meaningless). In effect all voters get a "yea" or "nay" to each candidate, and the candidate with the most "yeas" wins.
Ahhhhh this is clever. Okay yeah, I think I can do this easily enough. I'll give it a try this year.
ztarwuff wrote: The simplest method to enact is approval voting, as Ditocoaf suggested. The good thing about approval voting is that you can create the poll on these forums quite easily.
Last year we had SERIOUS issues with people voting with alt accounts and ballot stuffing and stuff, so I'm designing my own process to get around that. I also don't want the voters to necessarily have to be people on talkhaus since this is a multi-community contest at heart. So that's why I'm doing this on my own site with my own process that I can hopefully tweak to fix these issues.
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Re: So You Want to Run MaGL X3? 3/19/2017 11:59pm EST - ☆彡ENDING SOON!☆彡

Postby Willhart » 8 months ago

Not being able to see how the votes are going could be a good idea too. That usually effects them a lot, with people voting on the ones already on the lead.
Willhart wrote:Being a fan means... blind obsession.... She does not have to accept it... I thought it brought me closer to her.
Willhart wrote:[She] is planning on joining the patreon discord thing on advanced group, and that likely means that I'll listen trough every single one of those as they happen...

Part of me feels like writing her name over and over again
...I should not give up.
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Re: So You Want to Run MaGL X3? 3/19/2017 11:59pm EST - ☆彡ENDING SOON!☆彡

Postby Zha Hong Lang » 8 months ago

Horikawa Otane wrote: The "endorsement" part is almost entirely practical and it's something that we've been transparent about for literal years now. It isn't intended to be political. Basically, those of us who know how to run a contest as large as MaGL X have some practical experience other people don't.

So if someone comes up with no experience, but has a cool idea that sounds good on paper, but would never work in practice (or promises a gazillion judges or something), it's our own little way of putting our hand on the scales slightly to promote ideas that have slightly more chance of actually working out in reality.

How much this matters? idk. It is likely our endorsements might just be ignored, and that's fine. But even if X3 doesn't reach anywhere near the levels of X2 or even X1, it IS an enormous project and so we want to at least try to influence, even if it's only slightly, the contest in a direction that is more likely to be successful. In practice it'll just be like "8flight :-D" next to a name on the poll.
Oh sorry to create a big response, I was just being silly on my part. :lol:

Anyway, generally speaking, I do think that endorsements can be a good idea. Just as much as discussion is good for the informed reader, endorsements might be good for the uninformed. The only thing I could see that might go wrong is if a nice idea minus endorsement ends up receiving hardly any votes at all, merely because it didn't get endorsed. Though I don't truly think that's going to happen, at least not to a distinctly visible point.

(And by "nice idea", I mean one that's nice on paper and in practice, though for some weird reason didn't get endorsement. Maybe something else seemed like a better idea, the applicant isn't super well known, or they just didn't present themselves as well as the endorsed ones did. Again, I don't think applicants like these will appear at all (or if they do, enough to be a problem), nor do I want to argue over this being a viable flaw in the endorsement system. It's just a thought.)
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Re: So You Want to Run MaGL X3? 3/19/2017 11:59pm EST - ☆彡ENDING SOON!☆彡

Postby Supershroom » 8 months ago

How about completely anonymous voting? People only see the gimmicks and contest ideas, so they only vote for the gimmick they like the most.
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Re: So You Want to Run MaGL X3? 3/19/2017 11:59pm EST - ☆彡ENDING SOON!☆彡

Postby Willhart » 8 months ago

Supershroom wrote: How about completely anonymous voting? People only see the gimmicks and contest ideas, so they only vote for the gimmick they like the most.
Not sure that is a good idea. We have to consider how good the person would be running the event too, and there is also that whole part for what experience each person has.
Willhart wrote:Being a fan means... blind obsession.... She does not have to accept it... I thought it brought me closer to her.
Willhart wrote:[She] is planning on joining the patreon discord thing on advanced group, and that likely means that I'll listen trough every single one of those as they happen...

Part of me feels like writing her name over and over again
...I should not give up.
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Re: So You Want to Run MaGL X3? 3/19/2017 11:59pm EST - ☆彡ENDING SOON!☆彡

Postby MECHDRAGON777 » 8 months ago

Willhart wrote:
Supershroom wrote: How about completely anonymous voting? People only see the gimmicks and contest ideas, so they only vote for the gimmick they like the most.
Not sure that is a good idea. We have to consider how good the person would be running the event too, and there is also that whole part for what experience each person has.
Well, if people can guess who is who from experience alone. We already k ow who the four who submitted are.

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Re: So You Want to Run MaGL X3? 3/19/2017 11:59pm EST - ☆彡ENDING SOON!☆彡

Postby Horikawa Otane » 8 months ago

Supershroom wrote: How about completely anonymous voting? People only see the gimmicks and contest ideas, so they only vote for the gimmick they like the most.
I'll consider it.
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Re: So You Want to Run MaGL X3? 3/19/2017 11:59pm EST - ☆彡ENDING SOON!☆彡

Postby Zha Hong Lang » 8 months ago

MECHDRAGON777 wrote: Well, if people can guess who is who from experience alone.
I don't think that's what he meant. I believe Willhart meant that the experience behind each showrunner is vital, and people should be able to vote based on what they already know about that particular applicant.

As for me, I don't think that the showrunner election has to be a blind test. I think that bias has never been as huge in the talkhaus as it has been in the SMBX community, and who knows, maybe the SMBX community isn't as biased as it was back in 2012. If I'm correct here, I also think that it'd be unfair for those who have already applied, since people already know what their specific gimmicks are. The showrunners who submit later would be at an advantage, since their identities aren't known even though the previous applicants are.
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Re: So You Want to Run MaGL X3? 3/19/2017 11:59pm EST - ☆彡ENDING SOON!☆彡

Postby ano0maly » 8 months ago

Since the candidates submit not only their ideas but also their profiles, it may be possible to infer who they are anyway.

Adding support for approval voting since it's simple to understand - just vote for however many instead of just one. A runoff system takes more thought to understand and people might not be invested enough to examine it when they can instead focus on who will be the best host.

Thinking about it, can't you have ranked system without runoff? Out of 8 candidates you assign your first choice 8 points and the next choice 8 - 1, or 8/2, or something.
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Re: So You Want to Run MaGL X3? 3/19/2017 11:59pm EST - ☆彡ENDING SOON!☆彡

Postby Willhart » 8 months ago

Wow. 7 Applications now. This should be interesting.
Willhart wrote:Being a fan means... blind obsession.... She does not have to accept it... I thought it brought me closer to her.
Willhart wrote:[She] is planning on joining the patreon discord thing on advanced group, and that likely means that I'll listen trough every single one of those as they happen...

Part of me feels like writing her name over and over again
...I should not give up.
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Re: So You Want to Run MaGL X3? 3/19/2017 11:59pm EST - ☆彡ENDING SOON!☆彡

Postby Supershroom » 8 months ago

Bias was actually what I was "worrying" about a little, but it's good to know if people put the most focus on people's ideas and gimmicks. anomaly's suggestion is also interesting.
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Re: So You Want to Run MaGL X3? 3/19/2017 11:59pm EST - ☆彡ENDING SOON!☆彡

Postby Zha Hong Lang » 8 months ago

Supershroom wrote: Bias was actually what I was "worrying" about a little, but it's good to know if people put the most focus on people's ideas and gimmicks.
Well, the idea for the contest is only one part of the equation. I think it's fair to include who the actual candidate is as well. Let's say one guy has a super great idea, but he has a sub-par track record at handling events (at least in comparison to his idea). I think that his reputation should affect his placement in the vote, since he might want to practice handling (and perfecting) smaller events before doing something of MaGL X size.
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Re: So You Want to Run MaGL X3? 3/19/2017 11:59pm EST - ☆彡ENDING SOON!☆彡

Postby LunarNeedle » 8 months ago

Jayoshi wrote:
Supershroom wrote: Bias was actually what I was "worrying" about a little, but it's good to know if people put the most focus on people's ideas and gimmicks.
Well, the idea for the contest is only one part of the equation. I think it's fair to include who the actual candidate is as well. Let's say one guy has a super great idea, but he has a sub-par track record at handling events (at least in comparison to his idea). I think that his reputation should affect his placement in the vote, since he might want to practice handling (and perfecting) smaller events before doing something of MaGL X size.
That's precisely the reason why I never submitted my idea. I saw some flaws in my design, and unless I found it to be the most ideal idea for this contest I'd rather let other people handle it. Since I'm so much of a lurker, I don't feel I'm yet involved enough in this community to participate in the extent I would desire. Plus, as of late I've felt vindicated from my past procrastinating failures to make an actual level moreso

My idea was a theme based one, with a set of popular 8bit or 16bit music, which you received a game box and had to use music from that game and base a level around it and an assigned theme (which is basically all the seasons plus an abstract theme). The levels would then organized in the final game by theme with a semi-random placement. (Top 3rd, Middle 3rd and Bottom 3rd of each theme with visuals to make each room distinct). My problems came from scalability of the idea overall and my lack of security of the time investment needed as I'll be splitting rent with a room mate soon, and me having a job would be ideal.

I know many other people should have an idea worthy of my vote though, so I'll hold it back and let other people more qualified than myself take the task. I'll happily love to give my vote to the best candidate.
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Re: So You Want to Run MaGL X3? 3/19/2017 11:59pm EST - ☆彡ENDING SOON!☆彡

Postby Sebby19 » 8 months ago

And entry #8 has been sent.

8 is my favorite/lucky number.
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Re: So You Want to Run MaGL X3? 3/19/2017 11:59pm EST - ☆彡ENDING SOON!☆彡

Postby Willhart » 8 months ago

And that might be the last one. I don't think there is too much left.
Willhart wrote:Being a fan means... blind obsession.... She does not have to accept it... I thought it brought me closer to her.
Willhart wrote:[She] is planning on joining the patreon discord thing on advanced group, and that likely means that I'll listen trough every single one of those as they happen...

Part of me feels like writing her name over and over again
...I should not give up.
💔

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Re: So You Want to Run MaGL X3? 3/19/2017 11:59pm EST - ☆彡ENDING SOON!☆彡

Postby Ivy » 8 months ago

It is done.
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Re: So You Want to Run MaGL X3? 3/19/2017 11:59pm EST - ☆彡ENDING SOON!☆彡

Postby MECHDRAGON777 » 8 months ago

Should I be nervous that time is up?

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Re: So You Want to Run MaGL X3? 3/19/2017 11:59pm EST - ☆彡ENDING SOON!☆彡

Postby Mabel » 8 months ago

LunarNeedle wrote:
Jayoshi wrote:
Supershroom wrote: Bias was actually what I was "worrying" about a little, but it's good to know if people put the most focus on people's ideas and gimmicks.
Well, the idea for the contest is only one part of the equation. I think it's fair to include who the actual candidate is as well. Let's say one guy has a super great idea, but he has a sub-par track record at handling events (at least in comparison to his idea). I think that his reputation should affect his placement in the vote, since he might want to practice handling (and perfecting) smaller events before doing something of MaGL X size.
That's precisely the reason why I never submitted my idea. I saw some flaws in my design, and unless I found it to be the most ideal idea for this contest I'd rather let other people handle it. Since I'm so much of a lurker, I don't feel I'm yet involved enough in this community to participate in the extent I would desire. Plus, as of late I've felt vindicated from my past procrastinating failures to make an actual level moreso

My idea was a theme based one, with a set of popular 8bit or 16bit music, which you received a game box and had to use music from that game and base a level around it and an assigned theme (which is basically all the seasons plus an abstract theme). The levels would then organized in the final game by theme with a semi-random placement. (Top 3rd, Middle 3rd and Bottom 3rd of each theme with visuals to make each room distinct). My problems came from scalability of the idea overall and my lack of security of the time investment needed as I'll be splitting rent with a room mate soon, and me having a job would be ideal.

I know many other people should have an idea worthy of my vote though, so I'll hold it back and let other people more qualified than myself take the task. I'll happily love to give my vote to the best candidate.
I remember way back i though up an idea for a contest similar to Magl x that was with random music instead of random level names.
I still think it would make for a pretty cool level design contest to give people music and have them make a stage based on it.
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