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VLDC9 - vanilla level design contest 9

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Lockirby2
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Re: VLDC9 - vertical lodges doling chaos 9

Postby Lockirby2 » 2 years ago

First level has some ideas that stick well, but as the judges mentioned they don't really have any focus. It's still a pretty fun level. The biggest flaw for me IMO is the secret exit. I like what the level tried to do by making multiple paths through the level so that going back for it is more interesting, but the existence of the exit itself was a little pointless.

Morcel/Morceau's level tickles all my buttons. I liked all the rooms, even the door room. I found the combination of precision with the coin guides to play very well, and it is really fun to be able to dodge around so many obstacles that would normally be a royal mess. It's the first level that raocow has played that I would probably give a score as high as the mid-50s. For some reason, even though

checking the text boxes

was my first idea when searching for the password, I was somehow distracted by counting all the spikes at the top of the elevators and ended up playing the level a third time because of it. :P Admittedly, the password felt quite out of place.

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Re: VLDC9 - vaudevilles lighting downstage craftsmanship 9

Postby 10204307 » 2 years ago

I feel like I would have enjoyed Gambley Night a lot more if the level wasn't so difficult.

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Re: VLDC9 - vaudevilles lighting downstage craftsmanship 9

Postby S.N.N. » 2 years ago

There was a debate on SMWC as to whether or not this level actually deserved 11th place because the graphics, while seriously impressive, kind of hinder the gameplay at times (I would have ranked it a bit lower, personally). I think the design is really interesting in certain parts of the level, but other sections feel like they're a tad difficult to deal with due to the overload of colors and flashiness.

Wakana is a great level designer, but I'd like to see him dial it back a bit in VLDC10.

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Stink Terios
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Re: VLDC9 - vaudevilles lighting downstage craftsmanship 9

Postby Stink Terios » 2 years ago

Yeah. While the level looks nice, it's seriously busy in a REALLY distracting way, leading to a lot of unwarranted confusion. And being blindsided by moles and/or pollen.

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Re: VLDC9 - vaudevilles lighting downstage craftsmanship 9

Postby Mochtroidprime » 2 years ago

S.N.N. wrote:There was a debate on SMWC as to whether or not this level actually deserved 11th place because the graphics, while seriously impressive, kind of hinder the gameplay at times (I would have ranked it a bit lower, personally). I think the design is really interesting in certain parts of the level, but other sections feel like they're a tad difficult to deal with due to the overload of colors and flashiness..
I was actually thinking about this a lot while watching raocow play the level. Sure this level looks astounding, and can easily compare to the average casino-themed graphic swap (I feel that this would look better than some custom/imported graphics even) but is it even possible to have a level that is A+ in both aesthetics AND in gameplay?

Not to discredit any level designers, I have the utmost respect for them as I've tried making levels before and I'm terrible at it, but I feel like at a certain point you're either choosing to go all out in aesthetics and having acceptable gameplay, or you're choosing to all out in gameplay and sticking with acceptable aesthetics. I think the reason I see it this way is because there are a lot of levels out there that have such amazing ideas for obstacles and level design (m/m's level from yesterday is the obvious example, but I recall plenty of other levels like this from past contests) but they settle for sticking with unchanged tilesets, and sometimes even those don't look right because these interesting ideas cause tiles/sprites to interact with each other in ways that were never intended and ultimately end up looking kinda janky while being fun to play.

Am I crazy in thinking this? Am I just over-thinking what constitutes as great level design because I've been spoiled?

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Re: VLDC9 - vaudevilles lighting downstage craftsmanship 9

Postby Lockirby2 » 2 years ago

I think it's perfectly reasonable to have a level that plays really well and looks nice too. I suspect that most people's strengths just tend to be in one direction or the other.

Sunset Stroll looks like a romp, but actually has some decent obstacles around. I like this level a fair bit.

Casino Night has a lot more to talk about. I think that the business of this level would have been less overwhelming if the enemies used were not ones that are hard to spot in the environment. Moles and enemies with large numbers of small projectiles like Pitching Chucks/Lava Loti were not good obstacles to use IMO. Neither were Koopas kicking shells. Having the level *look* busy is fine with the casino motif (unlike with other levels, where it would probably be a drawback), but I think the author could have avoided letting that business translate into the gameplay as well.

I'm also one the fence about the section with the lights off. Lots of SMW contest levels use some sort of concept of duality. We have water/no water in Nightswimming, normal/haunted in Hotel, hot/cold in Dry Ice, good future/bad future in Grove of Seclusion, etc. It makes sense because it's something that can show off level design skills, that SMW supports nicely, that can be done in many different creative ways, and that is really fun to play when done right. But I don't really think it was necessary in this level, whose concept would have stood on its own two feet without that section. Despite my writing a paragraph about it, this is mostly a nitpick, but it's something I wanted to say, particularly because this level ranked so well. If it sounds like I'm being negative, it's mostly because I think the things the level does well are fairly obvious, and that the mistakes are more interesting to talk about.

I know there are some people who would criticize the ranking of this level by saying that it doesn't deserve a good position when graphics are only worth 10 points, but I somewhat disagree (I would put the level lower than 11th though, if the decision were up to me). In cases like this the graphics are what tie the level together and provide a focus point for the design. Many parts of the level (such as the jackpot area with the mushroom, and the many coins scattered about) only make sense in the context of this level and would seem both silly and pointless in a different level. Because of this, the graphics do aid the creativity/design scores in an indirect way, IMO.

And much to the disappointment of some gamers, this is probably the only time I will defend graphics as being somewhat important to my enjoyment of a game. :P

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Re: VLDC9 - vaudevilles lighting downstage craftsmanship 9

Postby Pyro » 2 years ago

Gambly Night is one of my personal least favorite levels, pretty much because of how it's so busy and cluttered. There's a ton of random aesthetic nonsense splattered everywhere in random places (PLAY 100 HORIZONTAL LUIGI!), which makes stuff very hard to see. On multiple occasions I got hit by Monty Moles I couldn't see because the level is so cluttered. And it doesn't really help that the level design itself is pretty bad and all over the place. You have completely random nonsensical obstacles like the kicking koopa that can never hit you, and a lot of obstacles which just slap sumos and lotuses down and shoot hard to see projectiles because of the cluttered aesthetics. The drop isn't that special and lolyoshi's level did it much better. The 'ghost casino' section is out of nowhere and it really doesn't bring anything creative to the level, it's just random ghost house enemies. There's a random disco riding section in the middle that lasts for about a screen which is way harder than everything else. The last few screens are just pitchin chuck spam. It's kind of a trainwreck of a level and I really don't understand why people ranked it so high, especially when the level got comments like "Wow! I loved this" and nothing else :V
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Re: VLDC9 - vaudevilles lighting downstage craftsmanship 9

Postby 10204307 » 2 years ago

My thoughts are that you don't need to be super decorative in order to have aesthetics that are pleasant to look at and convey the general theme of the level. Ruin of Cupidity only uses the default SMW palettes and doesn't make a whole lot of changes to the tileset, but the combination of cave tiles and castle tiles help distinguish it as being a "ruin", and having lots of clutter would have detracted from the flow of the level.

I think my score for Gambly Night would've been probably lower than, but similar to Koopster's. There's a lot of creativity that went into the visuals of the level, but the clutter really detracts from the actual gameplay.

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Re: VLDC9 - vaudevilles lighting downstage craftsmanship 9

Postby zagesaw » 2 years ago

Oh god Gambly Night... The placement and the scoring for this level makes me question if this was a level design contest or an aesthetics contest.
The blind jump into the flying Koopa at the start says it all for Gambly Night. Overdone aesthetics that get in the way of the level with mediocre level design to begin with.

Playing through this level was a chore because of how busy and cluttered everything was. I understand that aesthetics do kind of matter but it shouldn't overshadow and be detrimental to the design of the level. I rather play a well designed with minimal aesthetics (like many levels from JUMP) than a level with overdone aesthetics but shallow design.

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Re: VLDC9 - vaudevilles lighting downstage craftsmanship 9

Postby Koopster » 2 years ago

59th: SUNSET STROLL by mario and luigi
Nimono
DESIGN: 17/30
CREATIVITY: 13/20
AESTHETICS: 8/10
TOTAL: 38/60
Liked the palette of the level, it was quite nice. Nothing else to say about it.

ninja boy
DESIGN: 15/30
CREATIVITY: 12/20
AESTHETICS: 8/10
TOTAL: 35/60
This was really fun to play, had a good pacing with moderate challenges to keep it interesting. Good use on the palettes making it feel like the sun is setting but all around a nice level.

Eternity
DESIGN: 17/30
CREATIVITY: 15/20
AESTHETICS: 7/10
TOTAL: 39/60
Pretty nice level. Design-wise it's fine, the enemy placement works and the brown block barriers are fine (due to no backtracking + item babysitting being involved), but I still feel they don't add a lot to the level, and it ended up feeling a bit too generic overall.

Koopster
DESIGN: 18/30
CREATIVITY: 10/20
AESTHETICS: 7/10
TOTAL: 35/60
Nice level, it's just very simple and doesn't do too much of special. The P-switches don't really add to the level except for artificially breaking the linearity a little bit, but you didn't really commit any crimes per say.

11th: GAMBLY NIGHT by Wakana
Nimono
Favorite
DESIGN: 30/30
CREATIVITY: 20/20
AESTHETICS: 10/10
TOTAL: 60/60
Oh my gosh I loved this.

ninja boy
DESIGN: 25/30
CREATIVITY: 18/20
AESTHETICS: 10/10
TOTAL: 53/60
Beginning able to take the original graphics and turn them into something like this is just outstanding but the feel over the level is also amazing as well. It makes you feel like you're playing some sort of casino/gambling game, even if it's a minor cheesy arcade like game, when it comes to the secrets and extras.

Eternity
DESIGN: 20/30
CREATIVITY: 16/20
AESTHETICS: 9/10
TOTAL: 45/60
Nice level! Design's fairly good for the most part, and the tileset is really well made, specially considering it's vanilla. All the decoration can get really distracting at times, though, specially considering a lot of it has some sort of animation as well. I'm also not sure if the unreachable Pitchin' Chucks were a good addition to the level, they're extremely annoying to avoid in tight spaces, specially when there are also other sprites in the way.

Koopster
DESIGN: 19/30
CREATIVITY: 16/20
AESTHETICS: 7/10
TOTAL: 42/60
Wow... this level looks BUSY! I bet you feel just as lost in a real casino, but when you have to dodge little projectiles like the volcano lotus fire or see the little sneaky mole sand where they pop out from, it becomes kind of a problem! This level has some really interesting execution of a "gambling" and "casino fun" area in a Mario level, but that goes in the middle of many basic platforming setups, many times involving going back and forth with items essentially, and also some setups that feel out of place! Much like the disco shell hopping in the second half, which suddenly turns this into a level for more experienced players. I think you could've put more effort in being creative and make up more "gambling" ideas to fill up the level instead. Now that would've been neat. I also really like how I turn off the casino to get to the secret exit, but again, there's nothing special about the design of that area either, per se.


per say, per se, way to go me
Sunset Stroll exists!
Gambly Night's problems are clear - it shouldn't have been this high. I believe it's only that far up because of the wackiness of ninja boy, his fifties weigh a surpising lot. Not even Nimono - he gave a perfect score to quite a few levels and was generally more balanced. But don't quote me on this!

EDIT: also yes, levels that are amazing in design and aesthetics are not only a legend, they exist! I think my highest scored level is a good example of this.
But honestly I dig the style of m/m, worldpeace and lolyoshi - keeping it simple can also make a level pretty. Sometimes trying hard is gonna backfire, as shown more often than not. I don't try to venture into the fancy aesthetics realm myself and I actually got a lot of critics in my own level because of it lol. But we'll get there when we get there~
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Re: VLDC9 - vaudevilles lighting downstage craftsmanship 9

Postby Sebby19 » 2 years ago

Perhaps if I run the next Magl X, there will be some sort of anonymous judging. Basically, instead of having names attached to the score breakdowns, I'll just have Judge 1, 2, 3.

I think this will reduce periods of a bunch of people attacking a judge's opinion.
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Re: VLDC9 - vaudevilles lighting downstage craftsmanship 9

Postby Zephyr_DragonLord » 2 years ago

I suppose this is one of the few cases where waiting a day to comment on yesterday's levels might have been a good thing, so that I can properly weigh in on the design v. aesthetics discussion.

Hydraulic Hideout has some really interesting ideas, and doesn't do much wrong besides having a mediocre part or two. It also manages to bring a good challenge to the level, and hides the dragon coins well, along with a split path. The vertical water room was very neat. Good job with the layer 2 and 3 manipulation, and thanks for submitting this.

Swiss Hotel, as is the case for morsel levels, is pretty unique in terms of gameplay. There is some nice and difficult gameplay without being super unfair, which is nice. Some sections seem a bit frustrating, and that password puzzle is very cryptic, so that might be why the level was regarded as merely average. But I found it good too.

Oh man, THE Mario Brothers submitted a level? Sunset Stroll is... okay. P-switch usage was nice, there were a few chuck challenges, level was moderately challenging, and the sunset was pretty nice. Good job.

Gambly Night has to be a pretty interesting level. It's one of the best looking levels here, first of all, and nails the casino feeling perfectly. But I also have a few issues with this. First of all, there are a distinct lack of power-ups. Secondly... why are there Lava Lotuses strewn throughout the level? Lastly, that last section with baseballs is kind of a thing. The Dragon Coins were placed well, though, and the dark casino is incredibly cool. This could be made incredibly good with some better choices for the obstacles, but what there isn't terrible, but merely a tad flawed. Very good work regardless of that.

As for gameplay versus aesthetics, I am kind of in the middle. I really enjoy levels that play very nicely. I also enjoy levels that have great atmosphere and looks. Both of them can be thoroughly enjoyable. And yet, creativity in both delights me. It's why I enjoy both morsel's and raocow's levels, which go in drastically different directions. But levels that can nail both, and yet might do it slightly worse than the best, are the ones I enjoy the best. (An example of this design philosophy is Nightswimming, with both creative gameplay and a cool background...) This is because you know everything just clicked for the designer, and that feeling just tends to head it home for me, regardless of the mood the designer was aiming for...

Also...
Sebby19 wrote:Perhaps if I run the next Magl X, there will be some sort of anonymous judging. Basically, instead of having names attached to the score breakdowns, I'll just have Judge 1, 2, 3.

I think this will reduce periods of a bunch of people attacking a judge's opinion.
I think people will still complain, even if that were the case. The only difference is that there's no clear scapegoat at first, which may result in its own issues, if people are uncivilized enough...
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Re: VLDC9 - vaudevilles lighting downstage craftsmanship 9

Postby Le Neveu de Rameau » 2 years ago

zagesaw wrote:Playing through this level was a chore because of how busy and cluttered everything was. I understand that aesthetics do kind of matter but it shouldn't overshadow and be detrimental to the design of the level. I rather play a well designed with minimal aesthetics (like many levels from JUMP) than a level with overdone aesthetics but shallow design.
I would say that a lot of the JUMP levels (especially around the mid- to mid-late game) actually suffer from the same sort of monomania, just with a different focus. Namely, they're focused more on creative and unexpected re-purposing of game mechanics and default elements, but often to the extent that they forget to make something enjoyable (rather than simply original) out of their flights of fancy. The end effect is rather similar to what we see here, though: an initial "Yowzah!" as we are wowed by the author managing to reuse elements in a very unexpected way, but as the level proceeds, the stars in our eyes start to fade as we realize that the level itself maybe isn't all that fun to play through in practice, despite the obvious work and creativity that went into it.

I think this may highlight one of the key problems when designing a level for a contest, though (with time restraints and all the other conditions this involves). An all-around solid level which neglects nothing, but doesn't necessarily try to excel anywhere, is unlikely to end up with anything above a high-middle score--and if it didn't, people would likely complain that the judges went with something boring and safe rather than a level which look risks. As such, it's in the author's advantage to place their bets of one particular aspect, and go all out there, which will at least satisfy the people who like that aspect above others. This does have the effect that a certain area of focus "school" of design does run a certain risk of being favored in the rankings above another which could be argued to be equally good, but which was less to the tastes of the particular collection of judges who happened to be judging at the time. But this is unavoidable. Tastes are highly individual, highly variable, and also subject to fashion trends, in SMW hacking as elsewhere. We make fun of things like item babysitting and Tails555 land today, but in the past, these were considered good and innovative things and encouraged. So, too, will things we praise now as innovative be scorned in the future after they've been beaten to death, and things we mock now will return again with a modernized twist, and again be praised for it (a large part of the JUMP ethos, after all, was to rehabilitate a hacking style that had largely fallen out of fashion in polite society). In short, there's no way to please everyone, certainly not diachronically, and even when you get first place, sometimes, you just can't win.

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Re: VLDC9 - vaudevilles lighting downstage craftsmanship 9

Postby Koopster » 2 years ago

Also, in response to the overworld design - as the maker of the "skeleton" of the resort world (others made the graphics, mostly dax I believe), it's probably the most messy map in terms of paths lol. But it's not entirely my fault! Someone else put that return star there - it originally didn't have a star at all, so it was supposed to work as a circle, with a dead end for the ship and the switch ala forest world and a little split path between the hotel and the casino.
I guess the star was added for consistency with every other world. I never really questioned it, and I liked the spot whoever put it made for it, so it was just left there
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Re: VLDC9 - vaudevilles lighting downstage craftsmanship 9

Postby QubicTom » 2 years ago

Le Neveu de Rameau wrote:Tails555
Not that it matters, but it's Tails-155 :lol: Not to be confused with Tobi555! Everyone has been making that mistake since Tobi appeared :)

While I'm here, Swiss Hotel was fantastic. And I agree that the casino level was a real visual treat but too distracting to play as a level.
Now back to lurking.

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Re: VLDC9 - vaudevilles lighting downstage craftsmanship 9

Postby Pyro » 2 years ago

Sebby19 wrote:Perhaps if I run the next Magl X, there will be some sort of anonymous judging. Basically, instead of having names attached to the score breakdowns, I'll just have Judge 1, 2, 3.

I think this will reduce periods of a bunch of people attacking a judge's opinion.
People can still attack "Judge 1", "Judge 2" etc........
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Re: VLDC9 - vaudevilles lighting downstage craftsmanship 9

Postby SAJewers » 2 years ago

Pyro wrote:
Sebby19 wrote:Perhaps if I run the next Magl X, there will be some sort of anonymous judging. Basically, instead of having names attached to the score breakdowns, I'll just have Judge 1, 2, 3.

I think this will reduce periods of a bunch of people attacking a judge's opinion.
People can still attack "Judge 1", "Judge 2" etc........
Why not just list an aggregate score only, no individual scores?
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Re: VLDC9 - vaudevilles lighting downstage craftsmanship 9

Postby Nimono » 2 years ago

Koopster wrote:
Nimono
Favorite
DESIGN: 30/30
CREATIVITY: 20/20
AESTHETICS: 10/10
TOTAL: 60/60
Oh my gosh I loved this.
why is this all i had to say about the level

i can't even remember why I liked it so much.

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Re: VLDC9 - vaudevilles lighting downstage craftsmanship 9

Postby Sebby19 » 2 years ago

SAJewers wrote:
Pyro wrote:
Sebby19 wrote:Perhaps if I run the next Magl X, there will be some sort of anonymous judging. Basically, instead of having names attached to the score breakdowns, I'll just have Judge 1, 2, 3.

I think this will reduce periods of a bunch of people attacking a judge's opinion.
People can still attack "Judge 1", "Judge 2" etc........
Why not just list an aggregate score only, no individual scores?
It'll probably just be easier to ask the judges and propose to them what they even want to do. Aggregate scores would be a good idea. But I don't even know if I want the little write-ups judges do. Something else to ask them.
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Re: VLDC9 - vaudevilles lighting downstage craftsmanship 9

Postby Koopster » 2 years ago

I don't think anything to hide who the judges are is worth the hassle honestly. Pick good judges and significant problems won't arise!
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Re: VLDC9 - vaudevilles lighting downstage craftsmanship 9

Postby raocow » 2 years ago

someone should make a contest where all the judges are the least popular ones from all the contests, except you don't tell them that's why they where picked
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Re: VLDC9 - vaudevilles lighting downstage craftsmanship 9

Postby Dragon Fogel » 2 years ago

Make A Good Judgement Contest. Everyone who enters judges levels and the community decides whose judgements were the best.
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Click that banner if you like reading words.
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Make levels from unused MAGL X names!

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Re: VLDC9 - vaudevilles lighting downstage craftsmanship 9

Postby QubicTom » 2 years ago

Judge not lest ye be judged

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Re: VLDC9 - vaudevilles lighting downstage craftsmanship 9

Postby Grounder » 2 years ago

QubicTom wrote:Judge not lest ye be judged
*judges you*
Why don't you eat me?

I am perfectly tasty...

AND I'LL STEAL YOUR SOUL! :twisted:

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Re: VLDC9 - vaudevilles lighting downstage craftsmanship 9

Postby Sebby19 » 2 years ago

raocow wrote:someone should make a contest where all the judges are the least popular ones from all the contests, except you don't tell them that's why they where picked
That might be crazy enough to work!

But then I have to do research :geek: , bleh
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