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DT3 - raocow and the game that ended

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Count Mohawk
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Re: DT3 - raocow constructs a mega... and another

Post by Count Mohawk »

Validon98 wrote:I'll be honest, watching raocow struggle with the stealth stuff is cathartic. Also I somehow managed this whole section without killing any of the bots, but I see now that violence is actually super effective in that last screen, so I was Doing Things the Hard Way.

Next time... a boss I really hated. For reasons.
Of the three stealth rooms, room 2 (the first one raocow did in this video) is probably the most difficult. Rao may have had more trouble with the third room, but it's super easy to blow up all the Seekers if you're good with bombs.

And now for the Brain Machine, which was nerfed in the latest release, so be thankful raocow!
Pro tip:

The boss is not immune to arrows, and their trajectory will always hit him if fired up from the corner of the room. I used this fact to basically skip the first half of his healthbar once I'd learned how to avoid the floor lasers properly.

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ZephyrBurst
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Re: DT3 - raocow constructs a mega... and another

Post by ZephyrBurst »

Count Mohawk wrote:And now for the Brain Machine, which was nerfed in the latest release, so be thankful raocow!
Nerfed and buffed.
Longer telegraph times (and one of the second phase attacks lasts about 10 frames shorter), but the floor electric attack lingers longer.
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TaviTurnip
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Re: DT3 - raocow constructs a mega... and another

Post by TaviTurnip »

raocow will probably not agree with me on this at all, but I felt like the later stages of the boss only got easier because they took away your options and made you have to play more linearly, so you have to think less. I traditionally do better when my hands can act and my brain is as far away from my gaming as possible, so. All I could see this as was "oh hey linear options, easy cleanup".

Also I was gonna yell at you about depleting your shots before starting to use ice, but you balanced them out near the end, so yelling withheld!
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Lostsoldier20
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Re: DT3 - raocow constructs a mega... and another

Post by Lostsoldier20 »

TaviTurnip wrote:raocow will probably not agree with me on this at all, but I felt like the later stages of the boss only got easier because they took away your options and made you have to play more linearly, so you have to think less. I traditionally do better when my hands can act and my brain is as far away from my gaming as possible, so. All I could see this as was "oh hey linear options, easy cleanup".
Except he constantly avoided that linear option of "dash through the middle laser because if you don't, you're going to get hit by the other 3 lasers" and chose to get hit by the rotating 3 lasers... a lot.

But yeah, Brain Machine is very close to my list of favorite bosses in the game, if not in the top 5. It is a precision based boss, which gets you ready for the game getting harder and more precise without even using the grapple points. Which... yeah, we might be in end-game, but end-game has end-game to itself.
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Re: DT3 - raocow constructs a mega... and another

Post by Ometeotl »

Would the black hole's charge attack have been helpful here?
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Re: DT3 - raocow constructs a mega... and another

Post by Willhart »

To me that boss did not look particularly fun due to high amount of health and some of those attacks, though it was still a neat idea.
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Dark Hunter
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Re: DT3 - raocow constructs a mega... and another

Post by Dark Hunter »

I found you could basically skip the first couple of phases by standing underneath it with Claire and unloading missiles into it. Just have to dodge the beams a couple of times.

Cuts down on the grapple shenanigans considerably.
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Re: DT3 - raocow constructs a mega... and another

Post by Sebby19 »

When underneath the boss, I would have used the Charged Ice or Charged Blackhole Bomb. In fact, there was a trinket that has the Black Hole Bomb target the enemy.
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Dark Hunter
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Re: DT3 - raocow constructs a mega... and another

Post by Dark Hunter »

Huh... didn't expect raocow to get hung up on the lasers, of all things.

And yes, CHAOS Rocketeers are the worst things ever. Everyone agrees with you there, raocow.
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Re: DT3 - raocow constructs a mega... and another

Post by Validon98 »

Didn't watch yesterday's video until now, but man, do I not like that boss. It just gets to be too much after awhile. raocow put it best while he was fighting it, there's too great of a chance of a good run snowballing into a death because you miss a jump, fall off, and then take like a million damage trying to Strike Chain back onto the boss. Just to note, you can basically tear through the first phase with Claire just spamming missiles before the first electric floor comes out. But otherwise... ugh. It's especially egregious with the last phase of the fight, where it can just pull off that three lasers things, which can stack with the one that cuts through the middle AND the wave attack all at once and it's practically impossible to deal with.

Time to see how the beginning of the lower facility was dealt with.

EDIT: The lasers were kinda painful. Also yeah the CHAOS Rocketeers are literally the worst. I think the Shock Units were pretty damn bad as well but at least you can actually Hair Whip through their shield, which I think is the easiest way to deal with them.

Also this is where those switch puzzles get really crazy. They took me some time to figure out.
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Re: DT3 - raocow navigates past giant lightsabers

Post by ano0maly »

Here's the secret to the rocketeers. Their movement pattern is that they try to hover a little bit above you, while swinging across between left and right. That means their altitude is going to stay more consistent than their x-axis position if you don't move in large distances. This is why although Samus has the advantage of shooting upwards, sometimes I preferred to shoot horizontally. And you don't want to move parallel to how a rocketeer moves when it's preparing the laser.

The Shock Units, if you take the time to observe them, don't actually do much in terms of offense. What makes them a problem is that often you're engaging them when they're coupled with other enemies or traps and become big impediments to getting through. An interesting thing is that if you shoot a gravity well at the shield it's negated without detonating at the shield, but if the gravity well activates on its own before the shield hits it, the shield won't absorb the attack.

Also, a point of advice. Don't stick only to one weapon against an enemy just because it happened to work against that enemy when you first tried it out. Test out various weapons, and then narrow down your options if needed.

Remember how CHAOS enemies in Burning Stretches and Neo Grime City were mostly immune to melee and arrow/dagger? That's not necessarily the case here, so do use melee sets when the situation calls for it.
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Re: DT3 - raocow constructs a mega... and another

Post by Alice »

raocow, for that part at the beginning of that last room I'm pretty sure you were supposed to hide in that nook then jump and morphball up and over the wall when the laser was up. Though I could see why you'd misinterpret it since it looks so easy to get up to the top without going around.
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Re: DT3 - raocow constructs a mega... and another

Post by TaviTurnip »

Watching a vast majority of the "simultaneous buttons" puzzles in this game makes me go "there's no way raocow is doing this right" and not because I think his solution is poorly thought out or anything that is his fault. Just some of the ways he clears them are so... obtuse, I guess, that I have to assume Zephyr or the testers found much simpler solutions to all of them. (Yet sometimes I can't figure out at all what was really expected without having my hands on it.)
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Re: DT3 - raocow constructs a mega... and another

Post by Validon98 »

TaviTurnip wrote:Watching a vast majority of the "simultaneous buttons" puzzles in this game makes me go "there's no way raocow is doing this right" and not because I think his solution is poorly thought out or anything that is his fault. Just some of the ways he clears them are so... obtuse, I guess, that I have to assume Zephyr or the testers found much simpler solutions to all of them. (Yet sometimes I can't figure out at all what was really expected without having my hands on it.)
Fairly certain some of them are designed to be done multiple ways. The one where he just arrow spammed... man I feel dumb. I did that with like... the Belmont set, holy water to the left, then dagger and hair whip to the right, and it gave me problems.
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Re: DT3 - raocow constructs a mega... and another

Post by Plutia »

Hey raocow did you know there's an option to show button inputs?
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Re: DT3 - raocow constructs a mega... and another

Post by NegativeZeroZ »

If Rocketeers are officially the worst thing in the game, it's only because enemies that were far worse have been nerfed to hell.

Assuming you don't unload concentrated gamer rage onto your controller at the mere sight of one, they move in a rough figure eight pattern, which you can exaggerate by running past them when they fly at you (avoiding their missile in the process), jumping (misdirecting their laser), and then running back and repeating that, in a U shape. If you time it with the charge time of the X buster, you can manipulate their movement, dodge their attacks, and shoot at them, by repeating that U-shaped pattern over and over.

Don't panic, and move in a U shape. Wonder where that could help...
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Re: DT3 - raocow constructs a mega... and another

Post by Dark Hunter »

"WHY DIDN'T YOU GRAPPLE THERE!?"

Sums up my problem with this game's grappling mechanics. Way too unreliable.

Still, I will say that the moving grapple platforms in this area are pretty interesting and creative.

Also, I liked that dual robot boss. It was pretty fun.
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Re: DT3 - raocow constructs a mega... and another

Post by Sebby19 »

I love Dual Boss fights. I feel you should have scanned the one with the Green lightsabers, I think there may have been different commentary.

Also interesting how you can't just focus on one guy, since their life bars equalize if there is to much of a difference. Neat.

Also, that death with the charged arrow is the reason why dash buttons were invented. But anyways, yay charged Ice shot!
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Re: DT3 - raocow gets two Blade Bots for the price of one

Post by ano0maly »

Today's video was quite worthy of facepalm.
  • Give your weapons a chance! If one weapon doesn't work against the Seeker, try other weapons or scan it to see which attacks would work and which attacks won't. Don't just assume that it becomes invulnerable.
  • In the last room you finished today: the normal buster isn't the best option for hitting switches because of the small projectile. Using the shotgun ice or having the Energy Gem equipped would have been better for this.
  • And in the same room, when the contraption got to the end, you could have just scaled up the grapple points to shoot the switch.
That room with many linked switches is hard though.

I like the Blade Bot fight more than the Brain Machine fight. Although Brain Machine is kind of fun, there's an awkward imbalance between when the floor is electrified and when it isn't, because in the latter case you can just stand on the ground and shoot straight up. And I felt that the fight with the Blade Bots went more smoothly; it's a good-old traditional boss battle and it's rather easy, so it serves as a breather.
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Re: DT3 - raocow constructs a mega... and another

Post by Rex Ganymede »

about that Wind Tunnel / Koopa Hopping segment..



like rao, i had totally sucked at it with claire.

many, many do-overs.




the absolute first time i go at it with jerry, i make it.
what the shit??


:evil: :x

but, dang, was i happy to finally get it over with!
and jerry actually proved useful for something, for once!
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Dark Hunter
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Re: DT3 - raocow constructs a mega... and another

Post by Dark Hunter »

Ah, the swinging lava with Rocketeers room.

I think if I put my thoughts about that room into print, it would violate some kind of decency laws, so I'll just say that, Zephyr, your goal of making the player hate you for it was successful.
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Re: DT3 - raocow constructs a mega... and another

Post by NegativeZeroZ »

You can just stay on the lowest grapple points on the longest chains all day long and they will never hit you.

That wasn't raocow's "luck," that was the intended method.
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Re: DT3 - raocow constructs a mega... and another

Post by Sebby19 »

Only at least 16 more AP (plus whatever that Ocarina symbol takes) to fully max out your stats.
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Re: DT3 - raocow constructs a mega... and another

Post by Validon98 »

NegativeZeroZ wrote:You can just stay on the lowest grapple points on the longest chains all day long and they will never hit you.

That wasn't raocow's "luck," that was the intended method.
Even if that's the intended method, let's be completely honest: this room is pretty stupid. Like I cannot physically express words to describe how much I utterly despise this room and all it stands for. Granted, I have an intense hatred for the CHAOS Weapons Facility as a whole, but only because I have a probably unwarranted intense hatred for grappling controls in this game. Yes I know it's not as bad as I make it out to be. They're just that right amount of finicky to annoy me to no end, so just take my words with a grain of salt or something like that I guess?
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ano0maly
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Re: DT3 - raocow constructs a mega... and another

Post by ano0maly »

Regarding today's video.

Room K: the gridlines for the grinders are really hard to see. Maybe they should've been in a different color.

Room M: the rocketeers do come back each time, but the place stops being a mandatory kill room after you defeat them once (even if you don't make it to the next room in that attempt). But there's no indication to reflect this change, aside from the barriers not being there anymore. This would throw off players and make them think they have to redo the enemy encounter, like raocow thought today. Rocketeers do not deal contact damage, by the way.

The buster might not be the best option in this kind of a circumstance. The buster and the Strike Chain are mapped to the same action button, and if you charge the buster and then let go while holding Up, the charge is canceled and nothing happens.

Room O: there are two ways to do the room. 1: Run for your life, quickly clearing switches before the enemies and bullets catch up to you. 2: Get rid of enemies at the start, eliminate the air gunners until you feel ready to proceed, and fall back if necessary to do so.

The spawning air gunners can be an issue. It's annoying when you're in a hurry to get past the switches but the gunners show up between you and the switches, stopping your attacks from hitting those switches. WhattayaBrian brought up in his let's play thread that the the gunner should be generated at set places, based on either time or progress. I think that's a better idea than having them appear next to wherever the player happens to be.
Dark Hunter wrote:"WHY DIDN'T YOU GRAPPLE THERE!?"

Sums up my problem with this game's grappling mechanics. Way too unreliable.
Validon98 wrote:Like I cannot physically express words to describe how much I utterly despise this room and all it stands for. Granted, I have an intense hatred for the CHAOS Weapons Facility as a whole, but only because I have a probably unwarranted intense hatred for grappling controls in this game. Yes I know it's not as bad as I make it out to be. They're just that right amount of finicky to annoy me to no end, so just take my words with a grain of salt or something like that I guess?
I don't have an answer to this other than just bear with it and get good with the Strike Chain. I've said before, the Strike Chain and the grapple points are overall much more functional than they used to be. The Weapons Facility challenges would not be bearable with the grapple mechanics back then. I don't know if they can be made much better than this. Any more responsive than this, and they can start to work against the player. You've seen raocow today try to hook onto a grapple point, attach to a wrong one, and get pulled into spikes. Imagine that happening more regularly.

If you're referring to the controls rather than the sensitivity, I'm not sure if the Strike Chain can be made easier to use without reducing the firepower of the MMX set. In the past there were control schemes that used an action button just for the Strike Chain, but as a trade-off there wasn't a separate button for each weapon. That made using the chain straightforward but the weapons harder to use together.
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