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Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Post by WhattayaBrian »

Solaris wrote:im assuming that the two locked things in that one room are difficulty locked?

anyway im glad that you did it this way! it was really cool to see you just beat him on your first try hahah, what a difference :p
Yes, they are difficulty-gated.
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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Post by Pikabread »

I'm really very close in opinion to raocow here - I agree that games are allowed to be absurdly difficult, but there are parts in this game that are kind of stupid. I think people knock on this game too hard (partly because it comes from a guy who does IWBTG things and partly because OMFG BOOBS WHAT WILL WE DO), but there are more than definitely issues with it. Overall I still really like the game, and, yeah, Jeh'Oul is sad, but rao, don't push yourself too hard.

I realized the main thing that throws me off kilt with this game is the pacing - the interest curve isn't exactly super well followed here and it stinks. Solgryn obviously tries to, but I think he got way too carried away with making it so that most of the platforms in each individual challenge (especially in the late game) are the crumbly type, which doesn't allow microcosm breaks to asses things - just… learn it and go. And heavily practice-oriented gameplay is fine, but it just feels frustrating when you have to do an entire section in one go. It adds challenge sure, but it kind of defies the interest curve on the microcosm, and that's not great. Ultimately I think Solgyrn just needs more practice in game design.

Alas, we've reached an end now, and the LP ended as it started, and really as it went the whole way: Rubi Fridge Logic.
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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Post by Alice »

Pikabread wrote:partly because it comes from a guy who does IWBTG things
This is actually specifically why I criticized the inability to change difficulties. On most games that's not really an issue. For example on Castlevania: Aria of Sorrow or Order of Ecclesia you can't change between hard mode and normal mode after you've already started a game on that difficulty. But for games like this or Distorted Travesty it's a pretty vital thing to include specifically because they're intended to be very difficult. If the player gets far in the game (ie: The final boss like raocow did) and then gets stuck and can't change difficulties they're a lot more likely to just drop the game rather than replay the entirety of the game just to get back on a lower difficulty. You (generic you, not specifically you) can't even use an excuse like achievements or prizes for beating a game on a given difficulty either because that's easily fixed by simply using whatever the lowest difficulty the player played on for that file.
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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Post by Pikabread »

Alice wrote:stuff
it's meant to be about the commitment of beating the game on said difficulty though - and I think that's what shows true strength and ability. And I see where you're coming from, but I don't necessarily agree. It's not a BAD thing to make the difficulty readily available, but I don't think it's necessarily a good thing either. I can see its merits and I can see the merits of not not using it. I do see what you're saying with the achievements though, although that would seem kind of strikingly odd, in my opinion at least
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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Post by Ditocoaf »

raocow's played, beaten and enjoyed things harder than the medium-difficulty boss of this game. Difficulty can be created in fun and unfun ways. So I'm not disappointed at all that Rao bailed on the medium mode and wrapped things up in a much easier fashion -- there's something to be said for perseverance and accomplishment, but this game didn't really earn that sort of dedication.

Not that this game was terrible. It was pretty good, actually, for the most part! But it wasn't good enough to be worth pushing through that boss. It was time to move on!
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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Post by Tenlade »

The problem wasn't this game was hard, it was that it wasn't hard in a fun way. If this game was better designed with less dumb stuff like instant kills, arbitrary poison on the final boss, health bars twice the size they need to be etc, It would be a legit good game. But it wasn't, so it's unfortunately not.
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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Post by Zummorr »

Wow the three stooges of the boss fight just shield Vi and then zap him.

Overall I think that the game is decent. It's just that Solgryn has quite a few lessons to learn and probably needed better beta testers or to listen to his beta testers. I think enemy placement and usage was pretty dumb and some of the bosses were mechanically obtuse and bloated. I would bet that his future games would be better given that he probably has learned alot of lessons.

Clearly there are strokes of cleverness and good design. It's just that sometimes the game decides: you know what this section needs? a totally annoying homing enemy to just hit-stun you into a pit. The platforming strikes me as good and the bosses are decent, but the enemies and plot really seem like after thoughts.

As far as the other angels I think that they were pretty much missed opportunities to do fun or clever things. We had a short section where Amethyst betrays assists the player. Rubi could've been used in a section where the player has to pick her up and use her to weigh down switches, emphasizing her role as "The Load"

The butterfly could've been used in a section emphasizing her ability to heal, like a poisoned hallway where the player would have to take detours through it to get her healing orbs to survive.

The blond bored angel could've had a section where players followed her under her shield magic to protect themselves from some deadly laser section or something.

I don't know, I just think, man this game could've been quite a bit better.
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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Post by Le Neveu de Rameau »

So...Angeltown, which had previously appeared to be completely trashed, was actually able to be cleaned up within a few hours, and there don't appear to have been any casualties? I guess the demons weren't as violent as we thought, and the angels were the true monsters for massacring them as they did.

But yeah, this game...feels like a brightly-colored cardboard facade to me. There's a lot of things that look like they might be good upon a superficial glance, but a deeper look suggests the surface is basically all there is, and everything else is sort of shoddily done. And even the surface doesn't hold up when you look at it close up, having ultimately been as hastily thrown together as the rest of things.

This holds both visually, with the splashy graphics and environments, which look nice at first until you notice, for instance, the absent or sub-par animations, as well as the gameplay, where a potentially interesting idea is basically wasted by refusing to see things from the player's perspective. There seems to be an overall feeling of "toss everything out there at once, don't bother refining it; it'll work as is". The fact that the game also seems to be going for an epic feel, but is ultimately rather short, going directly from what feels like late-early-game to early-end-game without much of a middle to speak of makes the whole affair feel very rushed and underdeveloped. And the eye-rolling fact that the author apparently deemed it unnecessary to give the protagonist any sort of attacking animations at all, yet was careful to give every female character a heaving chest animation even while at rest makes you want to shout "Priorities, man!" This is perhaps a refrain which sing throughout the game

Honestly, I find this game off-putting in a lot of ways, not least of all æsthetically. Angels can admittedly be hard to do well--they've been a such a recurring kitsch element for centuries that it can be tricky not to call up those sort of I-don't-care-if-it-rains-or-freezes-as-long-as-I-have-my-plastic-Jesus associations that can make them hard to take seriously, especially if one wants to take advantage of some of the more traditional visual elements from medieval and Renaissance art. And this game really doesn't help this by giving all of the angels snow while skin on top of that. I know it's supposed to make them look ætherial, but it ultimately succeeds in making them look like porcelain grandma figurines. Highly sexualized porcelain grandma figurines. And that's just weird.

Another thing that I think hurts this game, in addition to the already much discussed "not-respecting-the-player" element, is that the game also takes itself surprisingly seriously for what it is. Most games of the super-hard variety tend to have a certain wry playfulness to them to make up for the potential frustration--IWBTG has this, Meatboy has this, and so on, and so on. It's an important thing to have, as it reminds the player not to get too worked up--it's just a game, it doesn't take itself seriously, so why should you? But Vi's StarTropics-level jokes upon picking up a collectable aside, that seems to be largely missing here--the mood is generally fairly downbeat and depressing, with lots of both explicit and implied death and destruction (um, except for the end where everything's magically OK again). Which is a double problem, as the frankly goofy and cliché-filled plot would have worked perfectly fine with a stronger humor element, but as it stands, you're left wondering if you're honestly meant to take this seriously, which is sort of hard to do. All the more so with the aforementioned character design, which seems exaggerated enough to imply that it's deliberately a joke, yet seems in practice to be played completely straight. I often felt myself wondering what exactly the author was aiming for here in the first place, and what went wrong (Deadline? Creator's block? Loss of interest?). For what it's worth, I really liked the fact that raocow felt the need to transform Vi into A the Safety Bee--it added a bit of that wryness that this game seems to have completely forgotten about. After a while, the default Vi comes to long just...wrong.

So yeah, I was not a fan of this game at all. It wasn't a whirlwind of horribility or anything, but rather just a sort of half-baked, corner-cutting patchwork of elements with a coating of garish paint over it which does not at all hold together, and ultimately just feels mildly depressing in a slowly draining sort of way, like a greeting card of a kitschy angel pinned to a corkboard, which has faded from exposed to the sun too long. And which someone then drew gigantic boobs on with a marker. Maybe a mustache, too. No, definitely no mustache, that would be too waggish for this game. In any event, I could have probably spared myself writing the above, as a much more succinct analysis of this game was already offered up far earlier in this thread:
Leet wrote:wings of vi, more like wings of PEE
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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Post by WhattayaBrian »

Pikabread wrote:I'm really very close in opinion to raocow here - I agree that games are allowed to be absurdly difficult, but there are parts in this game that are kind of stupid. I think people knock on this game too hard (partly because it comes from a guy who does IWBTG things and partly because OMFG BOOBS WHAT WILL WE DO), but there are more than definitely issues with it. Overall I still really like the game, and, yeah, Jeh'Oul is sad, but rao, don't push yourself too hard.

I realized the main thing that throws me off kilt with this game is the pacing - the interest curve isn't exactly super well followed here and it stinks. Solgryn obviously tries to, but I think he got way too carried away with making it so that most of the platforms in each individual challenge (especially in the late game) are the crumbly type, which doesn't allow microcosm breaks to asses things - just… learn it and go. And heavily practice-oriented gameplay is fine, but it just feels frustrating when you have to do an entire section in one go. It adds challenge sure, but it kind of defies the interest curve on the microcosm, and that's not great. Ultimately I think Solgyrn just needs more practice in game design.

Alas, we've reached an end now, and the LP ended as it started, and really as it went the whole way: Rubi Fridge Logic.
I feel like for the good majority of the game, you are not forced into learn-by-trial gameplay. Most "atomic chunks" are visible on the screen at once, and for those that don't, most of them have the floaty eye. In addition, you have a healthbar instead of one-hit-death that allows you to make many more mistakes before dying.

There are, of course, exceptions (mine cart rides are a good example), but I would not say the game feels much like IWBTG or a game like it.

I'd also say the game truly shines on repeat playthroughs. Once you've gotten through the initial hurdles (some good and some bad), the game feels really good. The controls and platforming are very tight, and blasting through stuff that gave you tons of trouble before feels very satisfying. And this, to me, is actually more important than the first playthrough. I am not even very good at WoV, but I could beat mortal in a few hours now. For reference, speed runs are generally around 44 minutes last I checked.

I did notice that people on the talkhaus generally hated on the enemies disproportionately. I don't think it's really legitimate, but I wonder if it has something to do with mario games being prolific here. Like, if that has informed people how enemies "should" be. Or possibly they immediately identified the game as a "platformer" and the enemies were not part of the "core" gameplay? I heard a lot of "what does this enemy add to the game?" when in fact what they added was that combat was a big part of the game and they were there to be killed.
Le Neveu de Rameau wrote:So...Angeltown, which had previously appeared to be completely trashed, was actually able to be cleaned up within a few hours, and there don't appear to have been any casualties? I guess the demons weren't as violent as we thought, and the angels were the true monsters for massacring them as they did.
Angeltown, at least the place we see at the end of the game, was never shown destroyed (or even implied to be such). All that happened in the screens to the right.
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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Post by Sebby19 »

So much for the subplot of getting Rubi's wings back. They just appeared back on her anyway.
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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Post by Pikabread »

I don't really have issues with the enemies, and I will say speedruns of this game are legit pretty awesome. I would go watch the AGDQ one if you haven't.
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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Post by Alice »

Pikabread wrote:it's meant to be about the commitment of beating the game on said difficulty though - and I think that's what shows true strength and ability. And I see where you're coming from, but I don't necessarily agree. It's not a BAD thing to make the difficulty readily available, but I don't think it's necessarily a good thing either. I can see its merits and I can see the merits of not not using it. I do see what you're saying with the achievements though, although that would seem kind of strikingly odd, in my opinion at least
There is a point where you have to realize that if your game is too hard and doesn't allow something like changing difficulties when it's this difficult you'll make your customer feel pretty ripped off which means they're less likely to buy your future games. If you want to lock your player into a difficulty for the commitment deal then you should do like Distorted Travesty does where everything up to the intended difficulty you can change your difficulty level on freely and only the most difficult difficulty locks you into that difficulty. That works in a case like that specifically because playing on that difficulty is showing a commitment to beating the game on that difficulty. On anything lower than the max difficulty though it's an extremely arbitrary distinction to bother making.
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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Post by WhattayaBrian »

I think one of the big problems is not specific to WoV, and it is that we don't have a good way of telling a player which difficulty is right for them.

Games have WILDLY varying definitions for "Normal" and "Hard", and there's no real way to know which experience is suitable for you based on previous experiences.

I don't really know the solution to this, but guiding people to the correct difficulty would do wonders for happiness.
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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Post by OrangeXP »

Sebby19 wrote:So much for the subplot of getting Rubi's wings back. They just appeared back on her anyway.
Pretty sure it was Azurel following Vi around as wingless Rubi ever since you rescued wingless Rubi from the Pr'Gora boss... which means Rubi was only around for the start and end of the game.
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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Post by Wolfolotl »

now to hope the next game in the lineup actually knows what it wants to do with its overall aesthetic
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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Post by Alice »

WhattayaBrian wrote:I think one of the big problems is not specific to WoV, and it is that we don't have a good way of telling a player which difficulty is right for them.

Games have WILDLY varying definitions for "Normal" and "Hard", and there's no real way to know which experience is suitable for you based on previous experiences.

I don't really know the solution to this, but guiding people to the correct difficulty would do wonders for happiness.
That's a bit difficult to do though unfortunately. raocow is actually a perfect example of this. For the majority of games, even if the game and people who have played it warn him, he'll play on hard mode. Wings of Vi is actually a bit of an exception in that regard but DT is a perfect example of it. He played on the second highest difficulty despite having been warned it's a pretty difficult game and, while it did take him until the end of the game (or technically postgame I guess), he still had to change difficulties in the end. Which is exactly why allowing players to change the difficulty is so important. According to what we saw in this last video raocow has about 34 hours of play time on his file. Replaying that much of a game just because you wanted to change difficulties is a bit absurd. (Granted it'd be a lot shorter on easy mode.)

On the other hand if I went into a game knowing it's difficult and still purposefully chose to play on the highest difficulty then when I started seriously struggling I wouldn't be so annoyed about being stuck on that difficulty. That's exactly how I approached distorted difficulty on DT. (Though in my case the difficulty increase from distorted wasn't really an issue anyways because my problem in DT has always been the platforming, lol. This is only speaking for everywhere up to the area you get the fire bat for reference.)
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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Post by Ometeotl »

The solution is to let you change the difficulty whenever, like many other games.
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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Post by Zummorr »

WhattayaBrian wrote:
I did notice that people on the talkhaus generally hated on the enemies disproportionately. I don't think it's really legitimate, but I wonder if it has something to do with mario games being prolific here. Like, if that has informed people how enemies "should" be. Or possibly they immediately identified the game as a "platformer" and the enemies were not part of the "core" gameplay? I heard a lot of "what does this enemy add to the game?" when in fact what they added was that combat was a big part of the game and they were there to be killed.
It was mostly me mentioning enemies. Some segments are mostly platforming and maneuvering around obstacles and then at the end before the save point the game throws a bunch of enemies at you. It's just that at the end of a usually instant death or atleast high damage obstacle gauntlet a random enemy arena is either really difficult or trivial. A good example is the random centaur demon who was used a single enemy in the collect the keys segment. He's not really a challenge and can be fairly easily tanked by players

At the same time the game had a habit of placing very fast homing enemies in timed platforming segments is fairly cheap

Maybe it's just me, but the enemy patterns really struck me as rather bland. The little metroid-y guys and worms (in similar but different vein the skeletons) just charge at the player at high speeds as soon as they appear on screen. Rock chucking demoness's and slug monsters just spam arcing projectiles directly at the player while not moving. Most enemies just struck me as being either things that charge at you at extreme speeds or are simply turrets for projectiles.

While combat is something you do alot in the game, It's not usually a source of great difficulty. And when they are difficult it's usually because they are the equivalent to a room filled with Ninja Gaiden's killer hawks.

It's a conundrum. They are mooks and mooks shouldn't be difficult. But then again this is a game about precise challenges, so then shouldn't a mook arena present a specific challenge?
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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Post by Ozzy Ment »

I think one of my main problems with this game was the fact that everyone depended on Vi to do everything, claiming that she was the only one who could, despite the fact that during actual gameplay she felt like one of the weakest and most helpless characters in the game. It's especially jarring when Amethyst shows up.
I flat out didn't like this game. Everyone has already done a pretty good job of summing up why. It also doesn't help that most of the game's difficulty seemed to come from damage-sponge bosses and instant death/ludicrous damage traps, or that I have a fairly low tolerance for difficulty in general. It's hard to truly hate the game when I realize that I am not the intended audience, but I'm still glad that it's finally over.
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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Post by WhattayaBrian »

Alice wrote:Wings of Vi is actually a bit of an exception in that regard but DT is a perfect example of it. He played on the second highest difficulty despite having been warned it's a pretty difficult game and, while it did take him until the end of the game (or technically postgame I guess), he still had to change difficulties in the end.
raocow actually played DT on normal ("veteran"). There are two difficulties above that.
Zummorr wrote:It was mostly me mentioning enemies. Some segments are mostly platforming and maneuvering around obstacles and then at the end before the save point the game throws a bunch of enemies at you. It's just that at the end of a usually instant death or atleast high damage obstacle gauntlet a random enemy arena is either really difficult or trivial. A good example is the random centaur demon who was used a single enemy in the collect the keys segment. He's not really a challenge and can be fairly easily tanked by players

At the same time the game had a habit of placing very fast homing enemies in timed platforming segments is fairly cheap

Maybe it's just me, but the enemy patterns really struck me as rather bland. The little metroid-y guys and worms (in similar but different vein the skeletons) just charge at the player at high speeds as soon as they appear on screen. Rock chucking demoness's and slug monsters just spam arcing projectiles directly at the player while not moving. Most enemies just struck me as being either things that charge at you at extreme speeds or are simply turrets for projectiles.

While combat is something you do alot in the game, It's not usually a source of great difficulty. And when they are difficult it's usually because they are the equivalent to a room filled with Ninja Gaiden's killer hawks.

It's a conundrum. They are mooks and mooks shouldn't be difficult. But then again this is a game about precise challenges, so then shouldn't a mook arena present a specific challenge?
I feel like the enemies need to be simplistic, because multiple guys are getting thrown at you at once. "Flies towards you", "Pauses, then dashes", "Shoots at a constant rate"--these are all simple things that the brain can manage once it's gotten used to them. This is a good thing, because it opens up your design space dramatically. Fighting 2 of X enemy and 1 of Y enemy is different than fighting 1 of X enemy and 2 of Y enemy, and the simplicity of their core movements allows you to place them together without being unfair.

This is how the game keeps combat feeling fresh. You may fight the same enemy multiple times, but never (or almost never) in the same scenario.
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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Post by Alice »

WhattayaBrian wrote:raocow actually played DT on normal ("veteran"). There are two difficulties above that.
Huh, I went and double checked and you're right on that. I either simply misremembered or I'm mixing it up with something else. He does normally have a habit of choosing hard mode over normal mode on games though.
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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Post by Xirix »

I'm glad you finished the project raocow, regardless of turning down the difficulty, hopefully the rest of the patreon requests will be a breeze in comparison. ^^
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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Post by Telamon »

Xirix wrote:I'm glad you finished the project raocow, regardless of turning down the difficulty, hopefully the rest of the patreon requests will be a breeze in comparison. ^^
The two i'm familiar with should be a breeze, no idea about the third.

Honestly, this game never really had a chance with me, simply because of the aesthetics. I know such things are subjective, but I also feel that a lot of the gameplay problems came down to the sheer size of Vi's sprite, which was probably a consequence of the amount of, erm, detail the creator wanted her to have. But at least that also led to lots of dumb appearance upgrades to have fun with!
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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Post by Redesignated »

Welp.

That was a thing.

I'm fairly certain raocow can beat Happy Jewel legitimately on Mortal, as he's demonstrated that level of ability before, but the question becomes if it's actually worth it for him to sink in the time, resources, and essence of his soul energy it would require. Evidently, the answer for the time being is "no." I can't say I really blame him.

The game has good ideas and it does some good things, but it also falls prey to some issues that are just objectively poor design, and that drags it down immeasurably. It has good music! The pixel art (when it wasn't lazy tweening or being used to accentuate hourglass figures of chibi girls in skin-tight clothes) was nice! But a lot of the rest — well, hopefully Solgryn keeps improving.

Also, that was the least-satisfying ending ever and it shows how the plot was a complete non-entity throughout this entire thing lol
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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Post by Le Neveu de Rameau »

guys guys I found the perfect graphic style for the remake of this game
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