tirakai wrote:Yeah a video of taking a break from the boss and finding secrets would probably be best. Both for raocow (so he feels like he's actually made some progress at something after 4 episodes of nothing), and for the viewers (so there's some content other than rao dying to the one boss 30 or 40 more times then ending as another ep 0).
Keeping the focus on the boss is probably better for the muscle memory though. He got definitely farther today than yesterday.
8bitgamer123 wrote:I predict a ragequit in, at most, 2 more episode 0s.
I'll predict him to get lucky with the patterns and win around then.
A few possibly helpful tips for rage mode, from watching successful runs:
1. The worm apparently dies in 2-3 crescent hits. Once enraged, Jeh'oul will ALWAYS spawn a worm when he does the "bite the platform" attack, coming out of the center of the platform as Jeh'oul slides over it. You apparently want to anticipate its presence to hit it with rapid crescent hits as you're coming down from jumping over Jeh'oul. The goal is to destroy it ASAP before it starts moving around and becoming a problem.
2. You really want to shorten rage mode as much as possible, which apparently means you should STOP shooting Jeh'oul just before he has four bars of health left - you want to wait to get him in an ice trap before attacking again, so that you can pummel him as much as possible before rage mode activates. You should also pummel him WHILE he's activating rage mode - he's defenseless then. The videos I saw were able to take Jeh'oul down from just-over-four-bars to only two-and-a-half bars left before he'd unleashed a single rage attack.
3. Dodging the double-laser is "just" a matter of doing the same dodge-under-the-overhang move twice. Easier said then done of course. Again, once enraged, Jeh'oul's laser will always be a double.
4. The double balls seem hardest to consistently dodge. Sadly, there's a strong RNG element there. At least one "flawless" run I found is flawless because the player killed Jeh'oul before Jeh'oul ever used the double ball attack. Other runs avoided the attack by running off the far edge of the platform, staying in the air while the first wave of balls hits the platform, and then returning to the platform as part of dodging the second wave.
anonymousbl00dlust wrote:That worm attack is such a morale killer.
And I totally stand by what I said about undogable attacks, because It's happened on video multiple times now. If you are off grabbing health when the scream or the laser starts, its probably too late by the time you see it. Not to mention that worm-laser combo. How are you supposed to dodge the laser and the worm at the same time?
Like, I genuinely don't want to play this boss anymore, but I've spent too much effort on this game to give up on the last possible thing.
The fallacy here is that you already made the mistake by choosing to put JJ offscreen. You can't reliably dodge his attacks when you don't see his tells, so it is up to you to make sure you can see them. It is always possible for you to know where JJ will appear next due to the eyes.
MoneyMan wrote:The good news is that, unless I'm mistaken, the worms shouldn't be nearly as much of a problem to kill as before because you're now dealing much more and continuous damage.
The bad news is that the worms exist.
Sorry, nope. All the increased damage only works against JJ himself. Worms function just like they did before.
Honestly, raocow did great today. Incremental gain is the name of the game, and he's doing much, much better. This is what every single player goes through when they first fight JJ. Obviously, he should do whatever feels best for him, and that includes deciding not to continue, but it is worth mentioning how he's doing quite well.
On Worms
These worms are actually easier than normal, but not because you do more damage. It's because they always spawn in the exact same way, and where you jump to dodge the attack that spawns them is exactly where you need to be to instagib them. You just want to stand right next to where they spawn, then do one crescent towards them, and one crescent up. It will kill them 100% of the time--their movement is deterministic.
Whether or not you want to do it, you certainly can. Good luck!
If you read this post and thought "Wow, what a swell guy, I sure would like to hear his voice and also watch videogames?" then do I have a link for you.
You know I had a thought, Given Super Jeh'oul's pretty whatever visual design. If he did not have the ridiculous number of garbage mechanics. No poison/healing, no pentagrams, fewer eyeballs, an easier to time dive bomb attack, etc. he seems to me like he'd basically be a mid-game boss, similar to the racing red punching guy, both in terms of visual design and boss.
It also strikes me as a really strange choice that he places those pentagrams around that hurt you. It's just this entire game we've used smaller versions of those circles to heal-up and suddenly having big ones that take a while to turn purple and then start hurting the player seems weird.
Also I understand that the eyeball visuals indicate where Jeh'oul will reappear, but it seems very misleading since one indicator might appear in the middle when Jeh'oul has surfaced off screen and is using his laser. I would think that the solution might be a simple blue arrow on on the edge of the screen pointing the direction of Jeh'oul rather than have the strange indicators which tell you where he will pop up later.
Think about fighting games when your opponent Super jumps and pulls the camera off screen It still shows where the opponent is.
I believe raocow can do it, it's just a matter of trying and perfecting the early portions of the fight. I would guess there might be 3 to 4 more part zeros, but I see light at the end of the tunnel.
Zummorr wrote:
It also strikes me as a really strange choice that he places those pentagrams around that hurt you. It's just this entire game we've used smaller versions of those circles to heal-up and suddenly having big ones that take a while to turn purple and then start hurting the player seems weird.
They do have a key difference, though. The object has six points, which should let you know that they're not healing things.
8bitgamer123 wrote: They do have a key difference, though. The object has six points, which should let you know that they're not healing things.
You are correct the sigils in the fight are indeed jewish stars surrounded by a circle. Caught me sleeping.
I shoulda realized they are hexagons and put hexes on people.
Still though, they are more similar to each other than mario mushroom and poison mushrooms.
Zummorr wrote:
It also strikes me as a really strange choice that he places those pentagrams around that hurt you. It's just this entire game we've used smaller versions of those circles to heal-up and suddenly having big ones that take a while to turn purple and then start hurting the player seems weird.
They do have a key difference, though. The object has six points, which should let you know that they're not healing things.
Zummorr wrote:
It also strikes me as a really strange choice that he places those pentagrams around that hurt you. It's just this entire game we've used smaller versions of those circles to heal-up and suddenly having big ones that take a while to turn purple and then start hurting the player seems weird.
They do have a key difference, though. The object has six points, which should let you know that they're not healing things.
The boss seemed so lesss bullshit then the previous ones without a million things flying everywher,e but the terrible hitboxes on attacks and the random poison and pentagrams kinda ruin it.
Ya know, after playing another super hard boss on anther video game that came out recently, it really puts a different viewpoint on all these super hard bossfights in games that seem almost there for the sake of being a hard thing.
Hey raocow, here is some information that might help you lower your hits taken.
You can stop your slide by walking in the opposite direction, it's responsive enough that you shouldn't need to jump out of the slide for dodging the scream.
The boss almost always has two attacks per location before moving to the next red eye location. There are some exceptions, the boss can sometimes use a whip-whip-shovel at the start of the fight, and sometimes if enrage mode was triggered just before it moves to a new location - it will begin an enrage mode set of moves. Using the divebomb or scream will end its turn early.
The boss AI doesn't let the last two attacks repeat (when there are more than two attacks).
It might help to say the location of the red eye tracker out loud (left, center, right) when it first appears each round, and after the two moves. The tracking eye is mostly faded out when it's done using two moves, which is an annoying mechanic.
A good habit to make, after the boss has made its two attacks, you should be on the last 25% of platform away from the boss, in order to anticipate how it will move. Same thing on its arrival, you should be on the 25% bit of platform away from the boss appearance location, along with a jump so the head doesn't bump you as it passes through the platform. It only has like 5-6 varieties of movement when it changes platforms. The most obvious bad ones are the left-side-to-right-side move (its body will cover the whole left platform), and the left-to-left platform (it will sometimes make a huge circle in place, covering the left platform completely.
Some extra info from studying the boss, might be TMI?
The boss has 2000 HP.
The boss starts with the whip and shovel attacks.
At 90%, the divebomb attack gets added, it will repeat it after every 3 waves until enrage mode. If you damage him a lot in the opening wave (it's possible to damage >10% health if it does the whip-whip-shovel opener), it can actually divebomb on the first round. If you don't want/are unable to maneuver to the ice trap, you can work on your timing by baiting a miss on the opposite platform.
At 80%, the laser and bomb attacks get added. Bombs only happen in the center position, laser only happens on the sides. Since the boss AI doesn't let the last two attacks repeat, if the laser already happened from one side in the previous attack wave, it is guaranteed to use a shovel or whip attack. The following attack would depend if the shovel attack moved it into the center where it is allowed to use bombs. The same goes for the bombs if it starts in the center after the previous wave had bombs. The whip attack is its lowest priority move, it is the only thing allowed to repeat if it is blocked from using its other moves.
At 70%, the scream attack gets added, it will also repeat it after every 3 waves until enrage mode. Ira (yellow shield) will always walk slowly to the left platform the first time it happens. She will always be in correct position afterwards, giving you ~3 seconds to get to her, or the duration of the "you are nothing to me" voice line. With experience, you can get off free damage on the boss sometimes depending on where it is.
At 40%, enrage mode starts.
Double laser - You will have to learn the timing on the laser as it comes down. If you commit completely to dodging, there is enough time to jump and flutter back to the platform and then fall off again to avoid the laser on its way down. You may have to become more confortable with falling down farther than you usually do. You also may have to get comfortable with jumping under the overhang.
Worm shovel - the boss is guaranteed to do this 40% of the time during enrage mode, it is critical to figure out how to kill the worm quickly. The easiest way is to be on the ground in front of the worm spawn, killing it with two overhead crescents without jumping (after you double hop over the boss's shovel). The worm has 8 HP on normal difficulty. The worm does 25 damage, the body still does 20 damage as it's dying. If you accidentally are somehow on the other platform and the worm spawns, you can still kill it by standing still and firing all your shots into it followed by a crescent in its face as it flies straight to you (just don't walk forward into it when it's dying).
Double bombs - these have a ton of RNG, you will not be able to jump-jump-flutter between the first set and second set. Either you slide off the side looking for the opening above, or you perform a double hop (not full jumps) - first jump is to place yourself horizontally under a gap where the bombs are moving away from each other, second jump is to move straight up while the bombs are falling. This requires quick thinking in like a 1/4 second for each bomb wave.
Bugs I noticed:
Sometimes, when the boss enrages, it will drop in height and then perform an attack. I would consider the low height a bug, it really screws up any chance of dodging an attack properly. It usually happens if it enrages as it is about to travel to a new location.
Another bug, if the boss enrage shovels and spawns a worm and you are far away on the opposite platform, the worm will not finish spawning until you walk towards the other platform again. This will probably kill you as the timing will be delayed, since the boss will be starting its next attack.
Another bug, if you are attacking the boss from behind its head, and it turns around, its backwards head hitbox will shift forward and hit you invisibly since it's way off center for a few frames.
Complaint:
The tail is way too jiggly. It's like the source of 90% of stupid hits.
The red eye that shows the next position fades out over time.
If you somehow get close to victory:
Make sure the boss isn't in the middle of a bomb attack if you win, they continue to hit as far as I can tell, and the worm spawn can still kill you.
Don't worry raocow, seeing the worm spawn the first time was a kick in the morale for me too. (Totally considered just quitting there.) I kept at it and finished it eventually! The only low point for me is the amount of time spent beating this boss in comparison to the rest of the game.
Even if you read all this knowledge instead of experimenting to figure it out, this fight is like 90% knowledge and 300% execution.
I feel like I underestimated this boss fight earlier. The enrage mode starts way too early, and I somehow though that 3 hours (Two episodes) would be good enough once you know about what to do. Have a nice break, and maybe forget the whole game. Sparring back up for this will probably take like 200 more deaths, so it's not really worth it to continue.
How many times people usually die on this boss?
Last edited by Willhart8 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
Personally I wouldn't care if you finished the game or not raocow, it was entertaining enough just to watch you play this game that I really love.
But I gotta say you really are making the kind of progress the average player does in this game. I've looked through the steam community and leaderboards before and seen that it's pretty common to take anywhere from 5-12 hours for people to beat this boss, so even if you did give this a go 3 hours a day and had horrible luck, I guarantee you'd be done in 2-3 days tops. Which is a statement that seems encouraging while also being discouraging, welp.
Anyway if you do decide to continue, here's some advice based on how you played today.
When jehoul bites the platform and slides across, you always double jump and flutter to get over him, you really only need to double jump and land in the middle, and during enrage this causes you to land right as the worm spawns and in the perfect position, adding that flutter will totally complicate killing the worm every time.
Willhart wrote:How many times people usually die on this boss?
I think one of the main issues, which I hadn't realized before, is that once in enrage mode the boss stops doing the "dive into the ice trap" attack - so there's no longer any significant opportunity to score big damage.
raocow, anyone who gives you grief for putting this game on ice can go suck on a demon worm.
Wow, those steam screenshots suggest about 600 deaths is the norm for that boss. raocow, are you willing to double the amount of time you've spent on that boss? If your answer is a resounding no, then move on! (The other patreon games are super good and genuinely fun)
Is it possible to change the difficulty setting of the game after having started the game? I dunno how much that would actually help but if you can lower it then that's always an option if you don't want to give up.
Willhart wrote:I feel like I underestimated this boss fight earlier.
How many times people usually die on this boss?
OrangeXP wrote:
For people who beat the game already, how many times did it take to beat the final boss the first time? For me, Azurel was 125 deaths, and the final boss was 994, which feels ridiculous.
As a member of the audience, I respect raocow's decision to continue trying, or to put the game down.
Sometimes, discretion is the better part of valor. But stubbornness in the face of adversity is also admirable.
Alice wrote:Is it possible to change the difficulty setting of the game after having started the game? I dunno how much that would actually help but if you can lower it then that's always an option if you don't want to give up.
I am worried. Wings of Vi is a very, very hard game, even on Mortal difficulty. The game gives you no way to change the difficulty down once you started, so if you at some point in the future desire an Angel save with all of your progress, I can make that happen relatively quickly. I really just want to avoid another Valdis Story.
Anyway--yes, the game has definite problems with visual distinction early on. It's very difficult to tell what's foreground and what's background. These issues, as well as many others, get more infrequent as time goes on, making it seem very much like Solgryn was figuring out the the strengths and weaknesses of his own design in real time. The latter half of the game feels much more solid than the former.
Willhart wrote:The angelic mode version does look beatable on raocow's current skills. The part he was having problems with is considerably different.
The part he's having problems with doesn't even exist in Angel mode.
In Angel he never enrages.
In Mortal he enrages at 40% health left.
In Demon he enrages at 70% health left.
As before, whatever raocow decides to do is fine.
As before, the Angel Mode save offer is still on the table.
And as before, raocow made fantastic progress today. Even between cuts, his movements got sharper and more confident, his dps got more optimized, and his overall success rate at reaching the enrage mode increased.
Supreme JJ took me 461 tries my first time. That said, I also completely missed what the red eyes did for hundreds of deaths. Silly me. I also didn't know about the weird Pulse Orb behavior so I was doing heavily reduced damage for a long time. I also didn't figure out Ira's shield for a good while, so I spent a bunch of deaths trying to hit him out of the scream, or run to the other side of the arena.
You're so good at lasers now! And charge attacks! And ice traps! And screams! You've come so far.
If you read this post and thought "Wow, what a swell guy, I sure would like to hear his voice and also watch videogames?" then do I have a link for you.
Well that's an extremely idiotic design decision. With a game this difficult that's kinda a necessary thing to include if you don't want your players to just flat out quit when things get too difficult rather than replay the entire game up to that point.
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