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AZCT: A Zelda Classic Thing - Basic Planning Thread

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Nabe
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Re: AZCT: A Zelda Classic Thing - Basic Planning Thread

Post by Nabe »

CodeGorilla wrote:
Nabe wrote:
CodeGorilla wrote:In spite of being a full-time software engineer, I find myself not really doing enough programming these days, and I've got an itch that needs scratching. I am willing to work on boss scripts if need be. I have some experience with ghost.zh, and I still have all the tools and reference sites bookmarked on my laptop from doing what's-his-bucket's boss fight. I can't promise that they will be A++ super polished 10-out-of-5-stars amazeballs, but they should at least be decent. And, y'know, done in time to test so that rao could play it after MaGLX2 is done.

tl;dr: I helped on this and I still wanna see this get done so I'mma try to help more.
Yo! Good to see you.

Pick some music for Level 5. :D
Oh right, that's a thing, since what's-his-bucket also did the music for my dungeon originally.

Are we still going with the idea that it's the buried ruins of a town, possibly underneath an actually usable town?
Yeah, the premise is still the same, although I did the verse rewrite before Voldemort left, so the text is different. The entrance is under a gravestone in the town on island 2, although that town is somewhat abandoned. Thinking I'd like to call the dungeon "Town's Grave" given the entrance and its Triforce piece image. And the graphics are still Gameboy, so Gameboy music might be fitting.

If you want to play it, the most recent version is in Master Copy.qst, in Debug Warp 1.
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Re: AZCT: A Zelda Classic Thing - Basic Planning Thread

Post by Lejes »

Nimono wrote:Sure, go ahead! We need all the help we can get. To start with, the Big Leever boss for level 3 isn't exactly what I was wanting for the boss- do you think you could take a look at it, see if you can help me out with that? I can send you the details if so.
I'm the one who made the Big Leever, so I could remake it. What did you want to see?
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Re: AZCT: A Zelda Classic Thing - Basic Planning Thread

Post by Nimono »

Lejes wrote: I'm the one who made the Big Leever, so I could remake it. What did you want to see?
Oh, Hi Lejes... I already sent the info to CodeGorilla...ummm... Basically, I feel like it needs...another attack or two, and its swirl-in-towards-you attack removed, I don't think it works that well.
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Re: AZCT: A Zelda Classic Thing - Basic Planning Thread

Post by Lejes »

Okay, let's see what CodeGorilla does with it.
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Re: AZCT: A Zelda Classic Thing - Basic Planning Thread

Post by CodeGorilla »

Bad news: I haven't had much time to work on this between vacation and my work being a mess.

Good news: I'm about to have a lot more free time on my hands.

(Bad news if you read between the lines: that whole job thing? Gonna have to get a new one of those.)
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Re: AZCT: A Zelda Classic Thing - Basic Planning Thread

Post by Nabe »

CodeGorilla wrote:Bad news: I haven't had much time to work on this between vacation and my work being a mess.

Good news: I'm about to have a lot more free time on my hands.

(Bad news if you read between the lines: that whole job thing? Gonna have to get a new one of those.)
What is a job, but a miserable pile of secrets?

...Sorry. But welcome aboard!
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Re: AZCT: A Zelda Classic Thing - Basic Planning Thread

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Does anyone have any updates? Where are we on the things we have left to do before October rolls around?
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Re: AZCT: A Zelda Classic Thing - Basic Planning Thread

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I've been trying to figure out a way to make the big leever boss more dynamic and less "wait around for an opening to hit it." Nimono already knows this from our PMs, but I thought I'd mention something here in case anyone has any ideas. My thought was trying to find some way to incorporate whistle usage into the fight. One possibility is to have the boss get mad and charge at you when you play the whistle, then if it crashes into a wall, it gets stunned for a bit, which allows you to unleash hell upon it. The problem with this is finding a way to organically suggest to the player to actually use the whistle in the fight; short of blatantly telling the player "hey, leevers are blind and use sound to get around; loud shrill noises confuse and enrage them" I'm not sure how to do it. An idea that occurred to me is to replace the default leevers with custom leevers that charge at the player when you play the whistle, then set up a room where that happens naturally in the course of the dungeon to show it by example. Another possibility is to mention something in the item pick-up text.

tl;dr: want to make more dynamic bosses, but not sure how exactly.

I've also been doing a little browsing of free music to look for something that we can use for Level 5.
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Re: AZCT: A Zelda Classic Thing - Basic Planning Thread

Post by Nimono »

CodeGorilla wrote:I've been trying to figure out a way to make the big leever boss more dynamic and less "wait around for an opening to hit it." Nimono already knows this from our PMs, but I thought I'd mention something here in case anyone has any ideas. My thought was trying to find some way to incorporate whistle usage into the fight. One possibility is to have the boss get mad and charge at you when you play the whistle, then if it crashes into a wall, it gets stunned for a bit, which allows you to unleash hell upon it. The problem with this is finding a way to organically suggest to the player to actually use the whistle in the fight; short of blatantly telling the player "hey, leevers are blind and use sound to get around; loud shrill noises confuse and enrage them" I'm not sure how to do it. An idea that occurred to me is to replace the default leevers with custom leevers that charge at the player when you play the whistle, then set up a room where that happens naturally in the course of the dungeon to show it by example. Another possibility is to mention something in the item pick-up text.

tl;dr: want to make more dynamic bosses, but not sure how exactly.

I've also been doing a little browsing of free music to look for something that we can use for Level 5.
Well, my intention for the boss was always that there wasn't much downtime on being able to hit it- it IS a leever, so as long as it's fully out of the sand, it can be damaged. Pops back up quickly, like a normal Leever, and the only attack that it would do that would make it invincible would be where only the top of it pops up so it can shoot rocks into the air, which it'd only do for like 2-4 seconds max. At least, that was my idea. As I said in PMs, I do worry that the Whistle would feel very tacked-on in the fight, with the "weakness" and "dynamicness" only serving to force a use for the Whistle that will never pop up again in the entire game. It's not something that comes naturally, and, in fact, may conflict with the base function of warping, unless we take out the warping and make a new item that does warps like the Whistle, but then a room in my dungeon is broken because it requires the whirlwinds. I feel that if we want to force a use for the Whistle into the boss, we'll need to just redo the entire item from the ground up with a new function, but even then, I can't see how it'd really make sense for a giant Leever to be invincible unless you use this arbitrary item on it. It's...it's just a Leever...
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Re: AZCT: A Zelda Classic Thing - Basic Planning Thread

Post by jayScribble »

I was thinking that the whirlwind can stun the boss leever when it is on the surface when you use the whistle, like an outside-the-box add on tactic rather than being the only way to damage it.
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Re: AZCT: A Zelda Classic Thing - Basic Planning Thread

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jayScribble wrote:I was thinking that the whirlwind can stun the boss leever when it is on the surface when you use the whistle, like an outside-the-box add on tactic rather than being the only way to damage it.
I was thinking something along that lines, too, but the only issue I have is...if you miss, you have to dodge your whirlwind or it takes you back to the start of the dungeon. If we turn that feature off for the boss room, there's no whirlwind. If we make the boss room its own Dmap so it returns you to the same room, the boss gets reset. Plus, it, again, feels kinda tacked-on and unnecessary. It doesn't logically flow, you know? Then again, neither does using the bug net against Agahnim....
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Re: AZCT: A Zelda Classic Thing - Basic Planning Thread

Post by Nabe »

Nimono wrote:
jayScribble wrote:I was thinking that the whirlwind can stun the boss leever when it is on the surface when you use the whistle, like an outside-the-box add on tactic rather than being the only way to damage it.
I was thinking something along that lines, too, but the only issue I have is...if you miss, you have to dodge your whirlwind or it takes you back to the start of the dungeon. If we turn that feature off for the boss room, there's no whirlwind. If we make the boss room its own Dmap so it returns you to the same room, the boss gets reset. Plus, it, again, feels kinda tacked-on and unnecessary. It doesn't logically flow, you know? Then again, neither does using the bug net against Agahnim....
We could catch the whirlwind and have it break against the walls of the boss room easily enough. The Sponge FFC already does that.

That said, if the whirlwind does anything to the boss, it should be auxiliary, not necessary. It would be awkward to aim and hit, unless the leever attacks a lot on the horizontal.


On the topic of October, everything menial is still on track for that. But we need to get people started on the final dungeon, and I'm still waiting on most people for dungeon/minidungeon music.
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Re: AZCT: A Zelda Classic Thing - Basic Planning Thread

Post by CodeGorilla »

Nabe wrote:We could catch the whirlwind and have it break against the walls of the boss room easily enough. The Sponge FFC already does that.

That said, if the whirlwind does anything to the boss, it should be auxiliary, not necessary. It would be awkward to aim and hit, unless the leever attacks a lot on the horizontal.
Yeah, as Nabe said, making the whirlwind not be a problem is trivial. I don't like the idea of trying to collide the whirlwind with the boss. In fact, I almost want to try and edit the whistle so that the whirlwind doesn't even happen unless the current screen is free of monsters, so as to avoid accidental teleports, which can be super frustrating. I do like the idea of using the whistle to make the boss charge at you, which stuns it for a little while to allow you to get some solid hits in. I am fine with leaving it such that you can always hit the boss, but I'd like there something you can proactively do to the boss other than wait for it to be in a good spot to hit.
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Re: AZCT: A Zelda Classic Thing - Basic Planning Thread

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CodeGorilla wrote:Yeah, as Nabe said, making the whirlwind not be a problem is trivial. I don't like the idea of trying to collide the whirlwind with the boss. In fact, I almost want to try and edit the whistle so that the whirlwind doesn't even happen unless the current screen is free of monsters, so as to avoid accidental teleports, which can be super frustrating.
But as it is right now, why would you use the Whistle at all except to activate a Whistle Flag or call a whirlwind to warp you? Yes, I realize that's exactly what you're talking about, but I don't think we should shoehorn in a combat function for every single item, pulling out its default functions just to make room for it.

The more we discuss this, the more I wonder why I basically treat this as a "sacred cow" when for other things, I'd probably be fine with doing stuff like this. All I know is, something feels iffy about this to me...
I do like the idea of using the whistle to make the boss charge at you, which stuns it for a little while to allow you to get some solid hits in. I am fine with leaving it such that you can always hit the boss, but I'd like there something you can proactively do to the boss other than wait for it to be in a good spot to hit.
Chase it down? It's not like there's a bad spot to hit it in, since when an enemy's in its invincibility period from you damaging it, you can walk through it safely.
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Re: AZCT: A Zelda Classic Thing - Basic Planning Thread

Post by CodeGorilla »

Nimono wrote:
CodeGorilla wrote:Yeah, as Nabe said, making the whirlwind not be a problem is trivial. I don't like the idea of trying to collide the whirlwind with the boss. In fact, I almost want to try and edit the whistle so that the whirlwind doesn't even happen unless the current screen is free of monsters, so as to avoid accidental teleports, which can be super frustrating.
But as it is right now, why would you use the Whistle at all except to activate a Whistle Flag or call a whirlwind to warp you? Yes, I realize that's exactly what you're talking about, but I don't think we should shoehorn in a combat function for every single item, pulling out its default functions just to make room for it.
You accidentally press the wrong button in a tense combat situation when you have the wrong item equipped. That's the case I'm trying to avoid here.
I do like the idea of using the whistle to make the boss charge at you, which stuns it for a little while to allow you to get some solid hits in. I am fine with leaving it such that you can always hit the boss, but I'd like there something you can proactively do to the boss other than wait for it to be in a good spot to hit.
Chase it down? It's not like there's a bad spot to hit it in, since when an enemy's in its invincibility period from you damaging it, you can walk through it safely.
The problem is that the invincibility frames don't last very long, and the boss as it currently sits doesn't flinch at all when you hit it, and instead just keeps charging on. Trying to hit the dang thing while avoiding rocks and not getting run over by the boss itself feels a bit more luck-based than I'd like it to be.
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Re: AZCT: A Zelda Classic Thing - Basic Planning Thread

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The problem is that the invincibility frames don't last very long, and the boss as it currently sits doesn't flinch at all when you hit it, and instead just keeps charging on. Trying to hit the dang thing while avoiding rocks and not getting run over by the boss itself feels a bit more luck-based than I'd like it to be.
Why not make it get knocked back when hit, then, and make it dive under the sand to do another attack pattern if you lock it in place for too long?

This almost makes me wonder if we should swap the Whistle with a playable music thing, but with how everything else has already been designed, it's pointless because it won't have any other use whatsoever- it's the kind of thing the entire quest should be designed around, which is my issue with suddenly giving it a use in this one singular dungeon. Everything's been designed around all the items working exactly like they do by default. If we wanted to give it a combat use, we really should've decided that before working on any dungeons, so everyone was on the same page and we could each add on to the new abilities. And yes, I know the final dungeon isn't completed yet and we could use the idea I just put forth in it somewhere, but then it wouldn't feel right- why was this usage ditched after one dungeon, only to suddenly pop up at the end for no discernable reason? We could have it be used solely to find secrets on the overworld, but why? As far as I can tell, people don't really like one-shot abilities unless it's in the final boss fight and makes sense plotwise. It needs to be something that has a constant use. ...so here's an idea: What if the Whistle put enemies to sleep, like SMB3's Music Box? That would have a constant use through the whole quest, we could change how long it freezes the enemies for to better balance it, we could make some bosses or enemies outright immune to it, and overall, people will love it. The only issue would be, it would get massively spammed. So maybe that feature costs magic? Maybe we could put the warping on another item altogether.
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Re: AZCT: A Zelda Classic Thing - Basic Planning Thread

Post by Nabe »

I'm liking this track a lot, CodeGorilla. If you don't mind, I'd like to cut it into an intro track and a loop track (probably leaving out the section beginning at 3:16).

Nimono wrote:...so here's an idea: What if the Whistle put enemies to sleep, like SMB3's Music Box? That would have a constant use through the whole quest, we could change how long it freezes the enemies for to better balance it, we could make some bosses or enemies outright immune to it, and overall, people will love it. The only issue would be, it would get massively spammed. So maybe that feature costs magic? Maybe we could put the warping on another item altogether.
This sounds like something that would break up gameplay awkwardly. Like, the Whistle stopping gameplay with its original function is fine, because the player only uses the whirlwind if they want to warp away from their current situation altogether, which is a function that inherently breaks the flow of gameplay. If playing the whistle temporarily stuns enemies for a short period of time, but takes time to play its tune first, then I'd imagine the average player either not using it at all, or using it a lot but (reasonably) complaining that it takes a long while. The opposite comparison is with an item like Din's Fire, which stops gameplay for about the same amount of time, but the enemies are dead when that finishes, so the player can move on to something new right away.

It's worth mentioning in this discussion that the whirlwind is also used for a puzzle in level 5.
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Re: AZCT: A Zelda Classic Thing - Basic Planning Thread

Post by CodeGorilla »

Nimono wrote:
The problem is that the invincibility frames don't last very long, and the boss as it currently sits doesn't flinch at all when you hit it, and instead just keeps charging on. Trying to hit the dang thing while avoiding rocks and not getting run over by the boss itself feels a bit more luck-based than I'd like it to be.
Why not make it get knocked back when hit, then, and make it dive under the sand to do another attack pattern if you lock it in place for too long?

This almost makes me wonder if we should swap the Whistle with a playable music thing, but with how everything else has already been designed, it's pointless because it won't have any other use whatsoever- it's the kind of thing the entire quest should be designed around, which is my issue with suddenly giving it a use in this one singular dungeon. Everything's been designed around all the items working exactly like they do by default. If we wanted to give it a combat use, we really should've decided that before working on any dungeons, so everyone was on the same page and we could each add on to the new abilities. And yes, I know the final dungeon isn't completed yet and we could use the idea I just put forth in it somewhere, but then it wouldn't feel right- why was this usage ditched after one dungeon, only to suddenly pop up at the end for no discernable reason? We could have it be used solely to find secrets on the overworld, but why? As far as I can tell, people don't really like one-shot abilities unless it's in the final boss fight and makes sense plotwise. It needs to be something that has a constant use. ...so here's an idea: What if the Whistle put enemies to sleep, like SMB3's Music Box? That would have a constant use through the whole quest, we could change how long it freezes the enemies for to better balance it, we could make some bosses or enemies outright immune to it, and overall, people will love it. The only issue would be, it would get massively spammed. So maybe that feature costs magic? Maybe we could put the warping on another item altogether.
I suspect making the whistle put enemies to sleep would be much more difficult to actually program, especially if you wanted some enemies to be immune. I'm still in favor of it causing all leevers to charge you and stun themselves when they hit solid objects. That would be a reasonable change to make, since it only involves writing and replacing one enemy type, and can still be felt throughout the game wherever there are leevers. Is that reasonable?
Nabe wrote:I'm liking this track a lot, CodeGorilla. If you don't mind, I'd like to cut it into an intro track and a loop track (probably leaving out the section beginning at 3:16).
Go for it! I hadn't yet put any time in figuring out where to loop it. And here is the link to the source; we would need to credit the artist (obviously) and not sell this project for actual cash monies (which I don't think we were, anyway).
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Re: AZCT: A Zelda Classic Thing - Basic Planning Thread

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Nabe wrote:
Nimono wrote:...so here's an idea: What if the Whistle put enemies to sleep, like SMB3's Music Box? That would have a constant use through the whole quest, we could change how long it freezes the enemies for to better balance it, we could make some bosses or enemies outright immune to it, and overall, people will love it. The only issue would be, it would get massively spammed. So maybe that feature costs magic? Maybe we could put the warping on another item altogether.
This sounds like something that would break up gameplay awkwardly. Like, the Whistle stopping gameplay with its original function is fine, because the player only uses the whirlwind if they want to warp away from their current situation altogether, which is a function that inherently breaks the flow of gameplay. If playing the whistle temporarily stuns enemies for a short period of time, but takes time to play its tune first, then I'd imagine the average player either not using it at all, or using it a lot but (reasonably) complaining that it takes a long while. The opposite comparison is with an item like Din's Fire, which stops gameplay for about the same amount of time, but the enemies are dead when that finishes, so the player can move on to something new right away.

It's worth mentioning in this discussion that the whirlwind is also used for a puzzle in level 5.
I was imagining it not pausing gameplay at all, just making a really short 1-2 second noise. But yes, I see what you mean. I'm not really sure there's any changes we can make to the Whistle in this case to have it work well in combat...
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Re: AZCT: A Zelda Classic Thing - Basic Planning Thread

Post by CodeGorilla »

Insomnia sucks, but on the bright side, I've made considerable progress on the level 5 boss. I have successfully created Buzzy Beetle-esque enemies that you can put in sideview rooms and bounce on, kick around into other enemies, and pick up using the power bracelet and throw at things. My plan is to create a Lakitu-esque enemy that spawns these, and the way to kill it is to throw these things back at him.
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Re: AZCT: A Zelda Classic Thing - Basic Planning Thread

Post by Nabe »

Recruiting for the final dungeon!

The plan was originally eight floors, one per main dungeon, with the same themes and boss refights, but that represents a lot of work, and a very long dungeon. October is coming too quickly for that.

Instead, we're doing four floors with combined themes. For instance, I'll be doing a floor that takes the theme of Level 7 (shoes) and combines it with another level (TBD). If you want to sign up, claim one level number, and when we have four people we'll talk about how to best divvy up the remaining four levels.

You can do your final dungeon floor however you want to, as long as it incorporates both of your level numbers in some way (dungeon items / enemies / visuals/ other themes), and isn't too short or too long. (If you're making a standard Zelda dungeon segment, then somewhere between 12-20 screens is good.) It's not really important that all four floors connect properly to one another, and in fact I'd encourage spacial non-conformity for variety's sake.


1. Nabe [7,_]
2. CodeGorilla [5,_]
3.
4.

Remaining: 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 8


The deadline for these floors will be September 15th.
That gives you about a month for ideas and building. The second half of September is going to be testtesttest to make sure everything is playable and fits together. We'll also decide which floor goes where at that time, although obviously we can discuss that beforehand as well.
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Re: AZCT: A Zelda Classic Thing - Basic Planning Thread

Post by CodeGorilla »

Nabe wrote:Recruiting for the final dungeon!
/snip
I'm down. I'll take dungeon 5, Old Talktoun, since that's the dungeon I'm most familiar with.

EDIT: Although, if there are enough other volunteers, I'll cede my spot and be on boss duty instead.
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Re: AZCT: A Zelda Classic Thing - Basic Planning Thread

Post by Nabe »

CodeGorilla wrote:
Nabe wrote:Recruiting for the final dungeon!
/snip
I'm down. I'll take dungeon 5, Old Talktoun, since that's the dungeon I'm most familiar with.

EDIT: Although, if there are enough other volunteers, I'll cede my spot and be on boss duty instead.
Thanks for volunteering. At this point, we may as well pick second numbers and go to town.

I could work with any of 1, 3 or 8.
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Re: AZCT: A Zelda Classic Thing - Basic Planning Thread

Post by CodeGorilla »

Nabe wrote:Thanks for volunteering. At this point, we may as well pick second numbers and go to town.

I could work with any of 1, 3 or 8.
Feel free to take whichever you're most comfortable with. I'm going to do a brief look through each of the dungeons tonight and tomorrow to get a feel for them, since I actually don't know a ton about the current state of the other dungeons, and if anything inspires me in particular, I'll let you know.
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Re: AZCT: A Zelda Classic Thing - Basic Planning Thread

Post by CodeGorilla »

Nabe wrote:
CodeGorilla wrote:
Nabe wrote:Recruiting for the final dungeon!
/snip
I'm down. I'll take dungeon 5, Old Talktoun, since that's the dungeon I'm most familiar with.

EDIT: Although, if there are enough other volunteers, I'll cede my spot and be on boss duty instead.
Thanks for volunteering. At this point, we may as well pick second numbers and go to town.

I could work with any of 1, 3 or 8.
I could see working with 6 or 3 pretty easily, although maybe it's best to pair 6 and 8 together as the two dungeons that seem to take the most advantage of sideview screens?
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