Episode 2 Discussion Thread

[sedron]

Maybe we could focus on one subject at a time? I know this is a general discussion thread for Ep. 2 but it's still kind of confusing that multiple conversations are happening at once.

Failing that, maybe we should start more threads for specific conversations, like the OW structure and shop stuff, etc.

I'm gonna be talking about level submission limits and the process of submissions for the rest of this post.

I do think that a hard limit on how many levels one can submit to the episode is totally reasonable. This should have a few effects.

1) People may be more likely to work harder on those levels, polishing them rather than making tons of levels that all need work and not getting the best results on any product.

2) People may feel more inclined to send in more than one level anyway. I know I'd be more likely to make multiple levels because there'd be a larger chance of them getting in. There are some people with 5+ levels sitting on the level submission list, which is kind of a lot. That's potentially half a world, or more, by one person, and I can see people being disheartened when they see that. It's not like this is the last hurrah for the series, anyway, so stuff can be put into Ep. 3/4.

3) We may see more people join, as a whole, when they feel there are more slots open and better chances at getting in. Variety is nice.

I also think that we absolutely NEED a strict system for submissions. Yes, we can work on levels to improve them, and so can the original authors, but stuff like Sloppy Sands shouldn't be getting into the game in the first place. Getting more levels should never be a problem. We have a huge supply of potential contributors, and while, yes, a lot of them will not be very good to start, you're also going to get experienced newcomers (Hoeloe's work, from what I've played, is really solid and enjoyable, for example.)

Let's get a set of guidelines for acceptance, a list of good judges, and we can get to work. I'm more than happy to help set this up and to participate as a judge if the help is wanted.

[Hoeloe]

...

It's been suggested that the limit should be 3 levels per person. This seems reasonable, in my opinion, as long as it's understood that these should be levels that have been polished, and not something thrown together in five minutes.

I suggest, though, that if we do have a limit per person, we should also have a "level heap" thread, which is where people should put levels (concept, design or full levels) that they've made beyond the limit. This allows us to have a stash to draw from when episode 3 starts, doesn't discourage people from making more levels (I have one level in the works, one level concept, and 2 levels submitted, which makes 4 levels, for example), and gives the added understanding to the creator that these levels will not be used in episode 2. This means the designers can prioritise those being submitted, but still make a start on other levels while the ideas and motivation are there.

[sedron]

...!

I'm not against the idea of having somewhere for extra levels (I believe we already have plenty of holdover from Episode 1, for example,) just so long as the people who submitted those levels actually come back for the next episode. A lot of people who submitted stuff for Episode 1 just kind of disappeared after initial submissions, leading to a lot of stuff having to be changed without author knowledge. It's extra work for Q&A, and honestly if you're not doing your part for your submission it probably doesn't deserve to be included.

The 3 level limit seems best to me.

[Hoeloe]

...

That's why I think putting them in a separate thread might be a good idea. It gives people something to do with the things they make, but at the same time we don't have to include any of it if they aren't around during episode 3.

[Oddwrath]

The 3 level limit seems best to me.

I disagree wholeheartedly. For two major reasons:

1) Let's say we have somebody who already made more than 3 good levels and submitted them. Now, so far the only person who comes to mind, who actually managed to this is Willhart(mostly basing this on Isrieri's reviews). Those levels get approved. Great! Good job! But what does the designer got to do now? Aside from give general advice, suggestions and reviewing other levels.

2) Levels get approved based on their quality, not length, not difficulty or consistency with the world theme. I don't think anybody wants 3 short grass levels with shifting difficulty in a lava world. Even if those levels are great.

3)People come and go in and out of this project as they please. Sometimes they even ask to get their levels pulled from the project completely. This is probably when the 3 level rule gets broken(otherwise, we will get a really short game), but most of the time, the levels that were already approved get to fill the void. It's fine, but I doubt many people would the repeat of ASMBXT, where it was:"This game was made by SAJewers, shaman, Willhart. Oh, and everyone else were there too

Now I'm ok with the level approval limit as a whole. I just think it needs to be tweaked slightly(maybe depending on the level submission average from all people on the A2MBXT Levels wiki page) to make it work.

[sedron]

I disagree wholeheartedly. For two major reasons:

1) Let's say we have somebody who already made more than 3 good levels and submitted them. Now, so far the only person who comes to mind, who actually managed to this is Willhart(mostly basing this on Isrieri's reviews). Those levels get approved. Great! Good job! But what does the designer got to do now? Aside from give general advice, suggestions and reviewing other levels.

2) Levels get approved based on their quality, not length, not difficulty or consistency with the world theme. I don't think anybody wants 3 short grass levels with shifting difficulty in a lava world. Even if those levels are great.

3)People come and go in and out of this project as they please. Sometimes they even ask to get their levels pulled from the project completely. This is probably when the 3 level rule gets broken(otherwise, we will get a really short game), but most of the time, the levels that were already approved get to fill the void. It's fine, but I doubt many people would the repeat of ASMBXT, where it was:"This game was made by SAJewers, shaman, Willhart. Oh, and everyone else were there too

Now I'm ok with the level approval limit as a whole. I just think it needs to be tweaked slightly(maybe depending on the level submission average from all people on the A2MBXT Levels wiki page) to make it work.

Somehow, I think Willhart would be more than able to keep busy. I think he does a lot of work as is. =P

Counterpoints!

1) There are always improvements that can be made to a level. If you have three levels you can probably improve all of them several times over, even if you're a great designer. Beyond that, there's a lot more to this project than level design. You could, like you said, review other levels. Q&A is intensive and we could use all the help we can get. You could, when the time comes, help modify existing levels to improve them. You could make graphics (I can think of plenty of custom graphics I'd like to see, and I'm not super-great at making them. I'm sure I'm not alone here.) You could write music that could be used for levels, instead of hearing the same lullaby remix every couple of levels. There's a lot to do. On the other hand, if the problem isn't having nothing to do with the project and rather that you just want to make levels, you don't need A2XT to showcase all of your work. You can make your own episode, even if it's really small.

2) I'm not entirely certain what point you're making here. Could you please explain it a bit more in detail? How does the level limit cause the problem you're describing?

3) To my knowledge, there were very few levels that were just pulled entirely. Even then we have levels to replace those, and designers who aren't going to use all three of their level slots that could be asked if they want to contribute more. Of course, if for some reason breaking the limit and having one of our more experienced members make another level is necessary, that's not a bad thing. However, having the three level limit, as a whole, won't leave us with a level drought. The majority of level designers only have a level or two submitted. A few have five (I think the most by one author right now is Mikkofier, with a whopping eleven submitted levels for Episode 2.)

The average number of levels submitted per person (using the wiki page, which includes 113 levels,) is 2.09. This is even lower than the suggested 3 per person limit.

Where do you think a good limit would be, then?

Oh hey I guess this was my 500th post.

[Oddwrath]

1) everything

Fair enough.

2) I'm not entirely certain what point you're making here. Could you please explain it a bit more in detail? How does the level limit cause the problem you're describing?

This mostly has to do with people who already have more than three levels made/submitted already, but still. When the project organizers will be picking three levels from a person's roster(or when said person will be choosing which levels get in the episode), they will pick based their quality. Of course, as I said before, quality and length, difficulty and theme relevance are mutually exclusive. This already happened in Episode 1(Anti-Nirvana is the worst when it comes to this), but with level limits there's even more of chance of it happening, since now the judges have to take into consideration that only three levels from someone are allowed to get in.

3) everything

Fair enough again.

Also, 11? Seriously? Man, I need to step my game up.

The average number of levels submitted per person (using the wiki page, which includes 113 levels,) is 2.09. This is even lower than the suggested 3 per person limit.

Where do you think a good limit would be, then?

5 would be fine, AS LONG as we count towns, intros and cutscenes as levels. I'm sure that there are many levels that people have in the planning, but just haven't finished them yet. I know. I have about 19 levels in my level folder and only one of them is finished and submitted, another is submitted as a WIP and two almost done. That's already more than 3.

Also, you have to understand that one of the things I'm afraid the most currently of is that this episode is going to be very short. Or at least feel very short, because Episode 1 just flew by. I beat Ep 1 back in September when I marathoned the whole thing a week. 1/3 of that week was the postgame and the relay level.

[Demolition]

5 would be fine, AS LONG as we count towns, intros and cutscenes as levels.

I don't think this will work unless people become involved in cut-scene discussions on skype.
Most of the criticism for the story in episode 1 came from the cut-scenes that were made by a variety of talkhausers, me and darkychao both had a good handle on the plot and knew what we were putting in each other's cutscenes.

[Hoeloe]

5 would be fine, AS LONG as we count towns, intros and cutscenes as levels.

I don't think this will work unless people become involved in cut-scene discussions on skype.
Most of the criticism for the story in episode 1 came from the cut-scenes that were made by a variety of talkhausers, me and darkychao both had a good handle on the plot and knew what we were putting in each other's cutscenes.

Speaking of which, I have added you on Skype. I suspect another person will be necessary, as my contributions will not be major, but I hope to be around to provide help and input where necessary.

[docopoper]

Episode 1 may have flew by for you but it is by no means a short game. It got 55 episodes out of raocow and has something like 97 levels.

[Mabel]

Why would you consider having cutscenes count towards the level limit? Anyway I think 5 is a good limit not including intros/cut scenes/sibling/uncle battles

[Mikkofier]

Also, 11? Seriously? Man, I need to step my game up.

Having made 11 levels doesn't mean anything if they're mostly average to crap. Quality over quantity. That's why I've "only" re-submitted about half of them.

[Sturg]

Hey, if people want to use Skype for communication that'd be pretty neat. There's also the IRC as well (if it's still up that is).

[ztarwuff]

What? I didn't realise we were still debating level limits. It's a no-brainer that we should set a limit on how many levels from an author should get into the game, but I'm not entirely sure how well a limit on submitted levels would work. I mean, yes, it would work, but will we get the right quality? If a level author submits the wrong levels (e.g. ones that he thinks are good, but are actually rubbish, whilst keeping back others which are actually good) then the second episode might not be as good as it could potentially be.

Mind you, I guess this is an unwarranted what-if situation and if we think that way, we might as well have no rules at all.

[SAJewers]

Just submit as many as you want. We're going for quality here. I don't care who made the levels, as long as they're good.

[Oddwrath]

Also, 11? Seriously? Man, I need to step my game up.

Having made 11 levels doesn't mean anything if they're mostly average to crap. Quality over quantity. That's why I've "only" re-submitted about half of them.

Ok, let me explain why that isn't as terrible as you think. If you have many levels and many of them are generally disliked, you could listen to reviewers to find out what was good. Then take these good parts and repurpose them in a much better level. And also, the fact that later you'll be more experienced at level making.

[Demolition]

Ok, so when working on episode 1 me and darkychao streamed a lot of the cut-scene production so people could follow along and give suggestions and whatnot. I think it would good to do the same for this episode.

So unless anyone has a strong objection i'm planning to stream me working on the intro cut-scene/tutorial in about 3 hours.
That's 3:00pm EST.

So if anyone wants to give feedback or anything I'll link to the stream here when I start and they can go watch. If anyone has me on skype i'll be ok to chat while working.

OK Streaming Now!
http://www.twitch.tv/demolitiom

Stream is over

[Mindez]

Watching! I doubt I'll have any actual useful input, but hey :)

Edit: You should refresh your chat since you're not seeing us in the viewer list for some reason. Also we can only hear you because system sounds. Yup.

[LovelyPenguin]

Okay, so the current idea is to make it so that the towns are essentially min-hubs, housing the leek sanctuaries (of course), as well as unlockable rewards à la the CoNS, correct? (And meanwhile, we keep the space station as the main hub, for warping between worlds, life-farming, etc.)

Maybe as well, the town should be the first place the player appears at in each world. That's not to say the town would be required, or anything, but it might make for a good intro to the place, especially to impart the world's flavor. As well, it could better serve as that world's hub in that fashion.

[sedron]

Quick deviation from the topic here.

I don't think the sounds need to be changed, but can some of them be made softer at least? If we're doing anything like that, of course. In particular I notice the grinder noise is really loud in some levels and it's super annoying.

[shaman]

I don't care about limits. If someone is able to put out 20 pretty good levels, let them be in the game. Not that I expect someone to make 20 quality levels, because that guy should have been working in nintendo, not on a random internet forum who makes independent games based on existant engines

[oshaoshawott]

thoughts on stuff and things!!

I don't really think there should be a level limit. Say one person makes 10 levels for one episode, and then a limit of 5 is added for the next episode. That doesn't mean that there's now 5 levels from more people, it means that there are 5 less levels in the game.

I don't really think many people would submit more than 5 levels anyway, aside from some exceptions. And if someone submits more than 5 and they're good, it's not much of a problem, is it?

I think a better rule would be "make a reasonable amount, guy"

[Hoeloe]

thoughts on stuff and things!!

I don't really think there should be a level limit. Say one person makes 10 levels for one episode, and then a limit of 5 is added for the next episode. That doesn't mean that there's now 5 levels from more people, it means that there are 5 less levels in the game.

I don't really think many people would submit more than 5 levels anyway, aside from some exceptions. And if someone submits more than 5 and they're good, it's not much of a problem, is it?

I think a better rule would be "make a reasonable amount, guy"

I quite like the idea of a "soft limit". Basically, this would mean that 3 levels or fewer are recommended, but that more can be submitted if they are of decent quality. This way, less experienced designers won't make a tonne of terrible levels that all need work, while more experiences designers, who need to tweak their levels less, can make more.

[sedron]

I don't care about limits. If someone is able to put out 20 pretty good levels, let them be in the game. Not that I expect someone to make 20 quality levels, because that guy should have been working in nintendo, not on a random internet forum who makes independent games based on existant engines

On a related note, how much are you planning to include in the game? There's likely some kind of upper limit on how much we can cram into this thing, so I assume you have an idea on how big (filesize-wise,) it should be.

[momo]

What should we call episode 2?

Also how do I add my level to the table on the wiki?