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A Second Mario Thing: free alex

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Bryux
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Re: A Second Mario Thing: it's almost over don't worry

Postby Bryux » 5 years ago

The B-side level was super cool. Too hard for my taste, however, but seeing that run of it... It was beautiful.
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Re: A Second Mario Thing: it's almost over don't worry

Postby HuFlungDu » 5 years ago

Zyglrox Odyssey wrote:e: I'm being told that was actually huflungdu who set that up. Still, though, it's a good idea and pretty well-executed, good job to huflungdu and whoever it was that decided to put something like that in the level in the first place, if the level were at a remotely reasonable difficulty it would've made a huge difference.
Actually I don't believe that bit was me, or if it was it was a simple edit from my Karoshi Mario level reset code that I immediately forgot about. If you watched jesus' video he uploaded, my contribution was in the room right before the end.

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Re: A Second Mario Thing: it's almost over don't worry

Postby Shard1697 » 5 years ago

anonymousbl00dlust wrote:All the obstacles in my level can be beaten on the players first attempt without any 'future predicting'.
With what authority are you saying this? Has any first-time player done this? Do you think that being the person who designed it themselves, you playing it makes for a good test? This is a level that requires extreme timing and control, but takes longer to understand what the level wants you to do than it does to do those things. It's the kind of level which requires someone to die repeatedly on a section to figure out how to do it, then die more while trying to get the muscle memory down to actually execute that, all while having to get through a ton of obstacles without dying to even get to that point. Because you made it, you know all the ins and outs so you don't experience any of that. Not to mention that testing a level one obstacle at a time is a really bad way to get a feel for how it plays as a whole.
There's no way that anyone would play this through first time without dying, ever. It's not reasonable at all.

basically
Septentrion Pleiades wrote:If we use the metric that has been used for most of the LP, AKA judging a game as a game, this was one of the most horrible things ever.

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Re: A Second Mario Thing: it's almost over don't worry

Postby AUS » 5 years ago

Because pure platforming is just awful. Anon deserves to be lynched because this level isn't easily doable.

..Like sorry, but reading the above post reminded me of the game Cloudberry Kingdom, which was not only all about that but also freakin amazing. Seriously this level is waaaaaaaaaaaaay better than I thought it would be.
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Re: A Second Mario Thing: it's almost over don't worry

Postby Septentrion Pleiades » 5 years ago

Please explain this concept of platforming purity and how this level is more pure than say... 1-1 of Super Mario Brothers.
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Re: A Second Mario Thing: it's almost over don't worry

Postby Zygl » 5 years ago

AUS wrote:Because pure platforming is just awful. Anon deserves to be lynched because this level isn't easily doable.

..Like sorry, but reading the above post reminded me of the game Cloudberry Kingdom, which was not only all about that but also freakin amazing. Seriously this level is waaaaaaaaaaaaay better than I thought it would be.
The difference being the levels in that game typically only take like 20 seconds at most.
They also don't generally have ridiculous abruptly-changing-direction autoscroll sections with multiple shelljumps like the section after where today's video ended.
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Re: A Second Mario Thing: it's almost over don't worry

Postby sedron » 5 years ago

Septentrion Pleiades wrote:If we use the metric that has been used for most of the LP, AKA judging a game as a game, this was one of the most horrible things ever. Still exceeds Further Over There by a long shot.
Well, yeah. That doesn't mean another critical lens can't be applied to it, or that it can't be appreciated for other reasons.

The metric I used earlier to find enjoyment in this level can be applied to any other level, too. Just as an example, let's look at Further Over There the same way.

Both levels are (arguably,) difficult to the point of being unfair, requiring extreme precision, reflexes/foresight, and patience. I can appreciate B-Side way more than Further Over There because it's much better made. There's a flow to play when it's done correctly, and the obstacles feel thought-out. FOT, on the other hand, seems very spammy. Enemies and the like are placed haphazardly to apply constant pressure in spaces where you don't have the ability to maneuver around a lot of it. Enemies like the plants suddenly halt progress, forcing the player to stagger constantly. B-Side uses sprites in interesting ways, whereas FOT does not.

You can look at any work from a multitude of angles, including game design. It's also okay to prefer one way of looking at things, but that doesn't affect the legitimacy of alternate viewpoints. Given B-Side's placement as the ultimate post-game, with reaching it being a nightmare in itself and it being totally optional anyway, I'm willing to look past the flaws the standard metric of level design reveals. I'd wholly agree that it's bad otherwise and I have no desire to ever play B-Side, but I can appreciate a different type of good design for what it is regardless.
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Re: A Second Mario Thing: it's almost over don't worry

Postby Isrieri » 5 years ago

This game was kind of crazy.

I see why it took so long.

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Re: A Second Mario Thing: it's almost over don't worry

Postby ano0maly » 5 years ago

So I watched anonymousbl00dlust's level, and I think that a good guideline for an intense post-game level is that it needs at least enough moments of rest to put save states. If your level is so continuously dangerous that you can't safely savestate, then it needs to be more lenient.

Reminds me of this video of the 9th door contest:
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Re: A Second Mario Thing: it's almost over don't worry

Postby Mabel » 5 years ago

pfft. Its just a level out of most people's skill range...
Theres nothing wrong with that honestly.

this level's demographic is for those people who think Mario Must Die is a masterpiece
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Re: A Second Mario Thing: it's almost over don't worry

Postby morsel/morceau » 5 years ago

I don't think you can beat the breath-taking arrogance of that "Be honest, notgoodwithusernames - did you test this without using any tools?". At least he seems to have calmed down a bit in his old age. There was no "Sorry I'm not part of the gaming master race like you are, anonymous bloodlust." There was no suggestion of savants. There is still the self-conscious parading of intolerance - "I've been playing for half an hour" - like a man groaning with toothache, but at least he doesn't dwell on it too much. Still, why not play it for two half hours? or three? This is an intolerable saw ride.
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Re: A Second Mario Thing: it's almost over don't worry

Postby Grounder » 5 years ago

Because he has limited time, and two games to record.

The frustration factor certainly doesn't help, either.
Why don't you eat me?

I am perfectly tasty...

AND I'LL STEAL YOUR SOUL! :twisted:

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Re: A Second Mario Thing: it's almost over don't worry

Postby raocow » 5 years ago

oh, hey, just so we are clear.. well, I don't know about back now, but when I mention the time to record nowadays, it's really for informative purposes, since single levels that take half an hour or more are still mostly atypical!
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Re: A Second Mario Thing: it's almost over don't worry

Postby Saturn Moriya » 5 years ago

B-Side is a good level. It's a fantastic level. For the TAS community.

But it's nowhere near acceptable for a normal video game. A real video game should always be playable, let alone beatable without tools. You can argue alot of things, but there's simply no way that anyone finds this level playable in such a way. There's a no-time-to-rest marathon of high-precision obstacles, more than a few of which require obscure movement to be traversed.

You could argue that it's suitable for the postgame. But in my opinion, having to resort to tool abuse drains all the fun out of playing it. And that (IN MY OPINION) makes it a terrible level for even the postgame of a proper game. There's people who still enjoy tool abusing through levels. But that doesn't give this level the right to be accepted into what was meant to be a2mt (going from the idea that we were trying to make an awesome super fun creative video game). It's a kaizo level, there's no way around it. But it's a good kaizo level.

...just stop shoving your casio keyboard levels into places where normal video games are the norm.
Last edited by Saturn Moriya on 15 Aug 2014, 12:48, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: A Second Mario Thing: it's almost over don't worry

Postby truthordeal » 5 years ago

Maybe as a separate game of it's own this level would have been fine, but I can't believe that one of the people in charge saw this thing and thought it would be a good idea to include it at the end of a 70-something level collaboration hack.

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Re: A Second Mario Thing: it's almost over don't worry

Postby Voltgloss » 5 years ago

The bird song made it all worthwhile.
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Re: A Second Mario Thing: it's almost over don't worry

Postby anonymousbl00dlust » 5 years ago

Don't know what happened with the rom. But raocow still seemed to have a good time. So I'm happy.
Voltgloss wrote:The bird song made it all worthwhile.
I got such weird looks while I was recording that, haha.

Edit: I was going to wait, but I figured I should share the files now. It seems like a good time to do it.

msu-1 version + bsnes0.70 (warning: large filesize)

zsnes version

Enjoy!
Last edited by anonymousbl00dlust on 15 Aug 2014, 14:21, edited 1 time in total.
alex2 wrote:It's all a matter of taste.

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Re: A Second Mario Thing: it's almost over don't worry

Postby S.N.N. » 5 years ago

So, what was that about this level being beatable without any future predicting?

And with that, it looks like A2MT is finally done - what a relief. The small chunk of good levels really couldn't make up for the overall "meh" feeling of the game, and I'm not sure how much of that would have been fixed even with decent Q&A. I'll be looking forward to A2XT (with the bar set very high given how much I've heard people talking it up).

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Re: A Second Mario Thing: it's almost over don't worry

Postby glitch4 » 5 years ago

That song at the end of the video is... briliant.

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Re: A Second Mario Thing: it's almost over don't worry

Postby KobaBeach » 5 years ago

anonymousbl00dlust wrote:I feel like you aren't differentiating 'possible' and 'likely'. Yes, you need really fast reactions. Yes, it's extremely unlikely a person would make it first-try. But it's still possible.
If it's extremely unlikely, then what's the point?
You might as well say "It's really unlikely that someone can 1cc Metal Slug on their first try, but it's possible, so yeah you can beat Metal Slug in your first attempt".

It isn't a good way to judge difficulty.
Mabel wrote:pfft. Its just a level out of most people's skill range...
Theres nothing wrong with that honestly.

this level's demographic is for those people who think Mario Must Die is a masterpiece
I don't really know if you're being sarcastic, but that's actually a bad thing considering most of the other levels in A2MT were not catering to the demographic you're talking about.
AUS wrote:Because pure platforming is just awful. Anon deserves to be lynched because this level isn't easily doable.
AUS, please no. This isn't "pure platforming".
With all the rushing it makes you do and how you can never stand still most of the time, this is essentially just a 2D Mach Speed Area.
Voltgloss wrote:The bird song made it all worthwhile.
No amount of SO RANDOM MONKEYCHEESE LOL would make placing a kaizo level in a normal hack worthwhile.

(Parrot Boom Boom was cool tho, he should make a cameo in A2XT)
ano0maly wrote:So I watched anonymousbl00dlust's level, and I think that a good guideline for an intense post-game level is that it needs at least enough moments of rest to put save states.
I think that a good guideline for an intense post-game level is to be really hard, but not to the point where it requires save states.

The word "post-game" does not magically excuse a ridiculous level of difficulty, to the point where it's pretty much mandatory to savescum. Good game design does not work that way. It doesn't matter if it's a talkhaus collab or not, you just don't do that.

Like Saturn said,
Saturn Moriya wrote:You could argue that it's suitable for the postgame. But in my opinion, having to resort to tool abuse drains all the fun out of playing it. And that (IN MY OPINION) makes it a terrible level for even the postgame of a proper game. There's people who still enjoy tool abusing through levels. But that doesn't give this level the right to be accepted into what was meant to be a2mt (going from the idea that we were trying to make an awesome super fun creative video game). It's a kaizo level, there's no way around it. But it's a good kaizo level.
Sure, there are people who adore savescumming through levels, but there are also a lot of people who don't.

I hate savescumming. It completely ruins any feeling of achievement I get from a game.
I find that it is pretty much the same as cheating.

You can't please everyone, but that doesn't excuse catering to a single niche.
sedron wrote:I think, judged as a normal level, B-Side is pretty awful.
This is in a non-kaizo hack, so this is how it should be judged, period, the end.

No "it's a post-game level so it can be kaizo" bullshit or anything.
It's in a normal hack, so a normal stage it should be.

Again, the level has interesting ideas, but it is simply not controllable by human reflexes alone.

My apologies if i'm coming off as too confrontational to anyone.
I'm not trying to offend. My sincerest apologies if I did.

inb4 someone goes "kobabeach more like kobadeepay adurrhurrhurr"

--------------------------

Outside of a few levels, A2MT was a terrible, terrible game.

Barely anything was salvageable.
The level quality was very very low for the most part.
The project was handled poorly by everyone (except for alex I think).
It was the worst thing that never came out of the talkhaus.

It's best that we just sweep this under the rug and pretend we never saw it, ever.

And just in case,
Septentrion Pleiades wrote:
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Re: A Second Mario Thing: it's almost over don't worry

Postby Jesuiscontent » 5 years ago

morsel/morceau wrote:
I don't think you can beat the breath-taking arrogance of that "Be honest, notgoodwithusernames - did you test this without using any tools?". At least he seems to have calmed down a bit in his old age. There was no "Sorry I'm not part of the gaming master race like you are, anonymous bloodlust." There was no suggestion of savants. There is still the self-conscious parading of intolerance - "I've been playing for half an hour" - like a man groaning with toothache, but at least he doesn't dwell on it too much. Still, why not play it for two half hours? or three? This is an intolerable saw ride.
Just letting you know I'm a big fan of your posts thank you
KlonoaBleach wrote:The project was handled poorly by everyone (except for alex I think).
I still don't know what alex actually did to this game besides nuking diddyboy's level

Also I liked A2MT it was pretty funny to watch sometimes
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Re: A Second Mario Thing: it's almost over don't worry

Postby Voltgloss » 5 years ago

KobaBeach wrote:
Voltgloss wrote:The bird song made it all worthwhile.
No amount of SO RANDOM MONKEYCHEESE LOL would make placing a kaizo level in a normal hack worthwhile.
So we're clear: The "song" referenced is raocow's singing at the end of the LP. And the "it all" referenced is the act of watching the LP.
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Re: A Second Mario Thing: rip in piss

Postby ano0maly » 5 years ago

KobaBeach wrote:I think that a good guideline for an intense post-game level is to be really hard, but not to the point where it requires save states.

The word "post-game" does not magically excuse a ridiculous level of difficulty, to the point where it's pretty much mandatory to savescum. Good game design does not work that way. It doesn't matter if it's a talkhaus collab or not, you just don't do that.
When a player decides to place a save state is, *drumroll*, subjective.

The level should be of reasonable difficulty but I'm saying that if a player decides to put a checkpoint there should be some room to do so. If there's no such space in a big marathon of intensity, then it's too much.

Also I agree with Septentrion's list
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Re: A Second Mario Thing: it's almost over don't worry

Postby KobaBeach » 5 years ago

Voltgloss wrote:
KobaBeach wrote:
Voltgloss wrote:The bird song made it all worthwhile.
No amount of SO RANDOM MONKEYCHEESE LOL would make placing a kaizo level in a normal hack worthwhile.
So we're clear: The "song" referenced is raocow's singing at the end of the LP. And the "it all" referenced is the act of watching the LP.
Ah, okay.
In that case, I agree with you.
ano0maly wrote:When a player decides to place a save state is, *drumroll*, subjective.

The level should be of reasonable difficulty but I'm saying that if a player decides to put a checkpoint there should be some room to do so. If there's no such space in a big marathon of intensity, then it's too much.
Someone giving themselves a checkpoint in a tough hack (like when raocow trips in time-space warps or w/e) is okay. I just have a problem when it forces the person to savescum through the entire thing.
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Re: A Second Mario Thing: rip in piss

Postby Ometeotl » 5 years ago

alex wanted to make the final boss a bullet hell with his waifu as the antagonist, so he certainly is not without blame.


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