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Level Clearing

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tenta
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Re: Level Clearing

Post by tenta »

Here i removed the P-switch run.

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tenta
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Re: Level Clearing

Post by tenta »

Well?
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limepie20
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Re: Level Clearing

Post by limepie20 »

tenta:
Oh, sorry. Thanks for reminding me. You fixed the very outline of the watermelons, but there is still a layer of black between the green outline and the red stuff. Just compare yours to the ones in level 105.
You still need to fix the cement blocks, and the saw munchers don't look good either. Hey, I see you are having trouble with the palette. You want me to just fix the things and send you a palette file?
Also, I don't really enjoy the section you replaced the p-switch run with because it harbors the same aspects I disliked. The whole section is jumping around on one tile platforms, and it is frustrating, not fun, especially in a slippery level. Try replacing it with something new.

alex:
Hey, it's fine. Level designers should remind us of their levels if we are taking a while to test. After all, testing doesn't take a week, but getting to testing might.
Septentrion Pleiades
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Re: Level Clearing

Post by Septentrion Pleiades »

I was a bit difficult to get the enemies to work with the terrain. It's consistently chaotic at the very least.

http://www.mediafire.com/?8ktu2bflfje5e0x

edit: Fixed something at screen A you probably wouldn't find.
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limepie20
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Re: Level Clearing

Post by limepie20 »

Septentrion:
I see that you've tried incorporating the diamonds more into your level, and you have successfully made them more prominent. The theme clash I talked about last time isn't as bad. I do understand you must really like these two themes because you decided to keep both of them instead of one. I know how you feel as a designer. They are both nice ideas. As well as you, I like the dino torch spawner. I can see why you like the diamonds, too. I hate to give you a hard decision, but I feel it will be in your best interest to revolve your level around one of the two themes, not both. You did a good job trying to combine both themes in one level, but after playing this, I feel these two themes don't really mix.
Although both themes are seen throughout the level, they don't fit together very well, and I hope I can explain to you what I mean. Dino torches are primarily on the ground; they walk and are useless if they fall. Diamonds are primarily in the air above abysses; they are jumping obstacles, and if you fall, you die. They don't fit together because the spawners need to be in a place with land, and diamonds need to be in a place without land. The result is many sections of the level focusing on one theme but not both. Your level is kinda drawn out. It's a bit too long for a p-switch sublevel, and I don't blame you. You are trying to stuff two themes into one level.
I'm gonna try to help you out a bit. Here's what I like and dislike about both themes:

Dino torch spawner:
Positive
  • Easy to use creatively
  • Easy concept to grasp (play already familiar with spawners and dino torches)
Negative
  • Useless around abysses
Diamonds:
Positive
  • Unique
  • Dynamic
Negative
  • Requires active design of punishment (e.g. putting them above abysses)
  • Hard to learn
  • Feels frustrating and unfair without learning proper technique
If you feel that you shouldn't choose between one of these two themes, please tell me you do and explain why, so we can talk this out. I am not bent on this resolution; I'd like you to agree.
And if I haven't made it clear, I really think a level based around the spawners rather than the diamonds would be a lot more fun. I hope you prefer the spawners, too because more people may like your level better.
Septentrion Pleiades
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Re: Level Clearing

Post by Septentrion Pleiades »

limepie20 wrote:Septentrion:
I hate to give you a hard decision, but I feel it will be in your best interest to revolve your level around one of the two themes, not both. You did a good job trying to combine both themes in one level, but after playing this, I feel these two themes don't really mix.
Although both themes are seen throughout the level, they don't fit together very well, and I hope I can explain to you what I mean. Dino torches are primarily on the ground; they walk and are useless if they fall. Diamonds are primarily in the air above abysses; they are jumping obstacles, and if you fall, you die. They don't fit together because the spawners need to be in a place with land, and diamonds need to be in a place without land. The result is many sections of the level focusing on one theme but not both. Your level is kinda drawn out. It's a bit too long for a p-switch sublevel, and I don't blame you. You are trying to stuff two themes into one level.
I combined the themes as well as possible gameplay wise. The torches disrupt optimal jumping conditions much of the time while the generator makes it impossible to clear the area. The are even several places were they interact with the player while he/she is on the slopes or even midjump. Torches are also a common enemy type(in A2MT) and barely qualifies as a theme.
We've also greatly discussed the difficulty of the diamonds

The level only feels longer then most switch sublevels, which have been argued to be to short for an endgame. It just has a lot going on, which a many players can appreciate(as well as the people from youtube). I can deal with slight changes, but throwing large these concepts is asking to much. It's very unique at this point and I don't what to lose any of it.

I have a question about the overworld placement of the switches. Are each of them placed on equally difficult paths, or more random paths?
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Re: Level Clearing

Post by limepie20 »

I have a question about the overworld placement of the switches. Are each of them placed on equally difficult paths, or more random paths?
Each switch level should be equal in difficulty.
Septentrion Pleiades wrote:The level only feels longer then most switch sublevels, which have been argued to be to short for an endgame.
Actually, I think you're right. I can agree with you.
Septentrion Pleiades wrote:It just has a lot going on, which a many players can appreciate(as well as the people from youtube). I can deal with slight changes, but throwing large these concepts is asking to much. It's very unique at this point and I don't what to lose any of it.
I highly respect the way you feel and can sympathize. I was in a similar position when I was working on my first level for a2mt. There were flaws regarding the main gimmick of my level that I felt could be accepted without fixing. Eventually I tried fixing them and ultimately liked my level better. Now, I'm not saying there are lots of flaws that need fixing and your level will definitely be better if you change it the way I think. Make a copy of your level and redesign it, so you are only utilizing one of your two themes and see if you like the level any better. If you don't like it, your old level isn't gone. Try some different things and pick what you like best. After all, it's hard to compare when you don't have anything tangible to compare to, right?
We aren't in any rush. As long as I know you are working on your level, there is no problem. I feel we can all improve ourselves from this experience. I believe I improved greatly after getting my first level cleared. Today I would go back and fix some things in that level because I have improved since. Let's just try things out and see how they work. Again, my opinion isn't right; it could be wrong for all I know. I think we could just more easily compare with tangible levels. Does this sound alright?
Septentrion Pleiades
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Re: Level Clearing

Post by Septentrion Pleiades »

This is hardly my first level, speaking of which
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You should also do something about the death glitch that happens if you are on the ground during the water transition.
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limepie20
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Re: Level Clearing

Post by limepie20 »

Thanks for letting me know; I'll definitely try to get that stuff fixed.
Hey, I appreciate you playing through my levels and finding errors. Really it is a great deal of help because my levels are only in this hack because of testers who are willing to help out. Don't be afraid to point out any problems you have with any level in the rom.
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Re: Level Clearing

Post by Septentrion Pleiades »

It's easy to tell the testing and clearing process wasn't as thorough back then. We may have to split up into teams right before release to make sure there aren't any issues. I suggest 4 team of 2 for each switch path.

As for my level, I'm quite satisfied with it's gameplay, although the aesthetics will be improved a bit. It will be hard remaking it completely twice. I've considered both option themes.

Torches:
Requires ridiculous cunning on every part in level design.
Already explored to a great extent in other levels
More slowdown
More square looking level

Diamonds:
a bit repetitive.
Down is a bad direction to work with
I like dino torches

I thought up a good concept for a diamond level, but it won't work well with the graphics, and would require a lot more work. It's essentially asking me to preemptively make a complete new high quality level just in case I feel that this one, isn't as good.
The thing is, I like the busyness of this level and you don't. I actually think it have could be busier. Earlier systemkrash cleared my level, and you revoked it due to not understanding the diamonds. Could you just accept that there's going to be a difference of opinion regarding the overall feel of the level?
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Re: Level Clearing

Post by limepie20 »

Revoking his clearing goes against my code of "if one person thinks it's right, I won't intervene." I've thought about my revocation, and I'd like to apologize for it. You have the right to submit the version Systemkrash cleared. I just at the time felt I needed to do something quickly, and it was more of an impulse than a thought-out action.
Even though your level is cleared, I'd still really like you to continue working on it and improving it. Of course, you don't have to because your level is cleared.
My goal is to make sure every level in the hack is fun, so I hope you understand why I am persistently trying to get you to change the level; I just don't think it's fun. But maybe it's just me. Systemkrash liked it, and I respect that, so you can submit it.
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Fireyblaze
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Re: Level Clearing

Post by Fireyblaze »

Gonna put my level up for clearing. I really don't have much to say about it.

I tried to tone down the puzzle parts somewhat in exchange for a more simple level feeling. I also took out the ASM I originally had made to make it so my dragon coins didn't save on death because that was only needed for the puzzle parts.

Anyway, try to enjoy.
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Frozelar
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Re: Level Clearing

Post by Frozelar »

SUDDENLY, ME AGAIN
anyways
fireyblaze wrote:Gonna put my level up for clearing. I really don't have much to say about it.

I tried to tone down the puzzle parts somewhat in exchange for a more simple level feeling. I also took out the ASM I originally had made to make it so my dragon coins didn't save on death because that was only needed for the puzzle parts.

Anyway, try to enjoy.
I thought that your level was pretty difficult, but very nice and atmospheric. It felt pretty complex, but not super overwhelmingly complex. The only complaint I really have is that the slowdown killed me at a few places. Also, if you really want to get very detailed... the graphic of the tofublock (the bouncy noteblock) changes when you bounce on it.

Great job, fieryblaze!
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tenta
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Re: Level Clearing

Post by tenta »

I replaced Cement block with side bouncing blocks except for the ones near the midpoint. ive put another blocks instead and i also made the tricky jumps part way easier.

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limepie20
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Re: Level Clearing

Post by limepie20 »

fireyblaze:
frostyfish mentioned the tofu block changing colors. Can you try to fix that? Also, can you try setting your level to other sprite memory settings to make there be less slowdown? The slowdown is a bit of a problem, so we should try to get that fixed.
Anyway, I remember last time I played this level, I didn't like it too much. I don't remember exactly why, but whatever it was, you fixed it. I had some good fun this time around. Good job! You are cleared. Just try to get the minor palette and slowdown errors fixed. Thanks.

tenta:
One minor error I just picked up on is that the place where you fall to get a parrot coin (next to midpoint entrance) has regular invisible coin blocks instead of the outlined ones. Also, please remove the line of turn blocks at the top of the level; they look weird.
Before I clear you, can you explain how you are supposed to get the treasure chest because I can't figure it out? I think you should change it a bit because I see the solution involves going inside of the dirt, and that doesn't look good. Could you change it up so you don't have to go inside the dirt?
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Re: Level Clearing

Post by Awakenyourmind »

I told you some things should probably be changed tenta. Though I can respect wanting to keep things how you want them. 50/50 on it, though I think you could make your level much better with a few changes and additions.

Even my inserted level could be improved. By the way, would that be possible Lime? I'd love to improve my already inserted level if it's not a pain for you guys.
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Re: Level Clearing

Post by limepie20 »

Franky:
Hey, can you express what you feel can be improved about tenta's level? I'd really like to hear because maybe you're right.
Also, yes. You can definitely go and improve your level, and then repost it in testing and development or something, so people can get a taste. Then just resubmit. Improvement is great, so go for it!
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Re: Level Clearing

Post by Septentrion Pleiades »

Franky:
I don't like nonconstructive criticisms, it doesn't serve any purpose. If there is something specific you want to point out, please post your exact concerns. Tenta's level doesn't need to go back to T&D, it passed that long ago. Vaguely saying that it needs to be improved without instruction is saying it's inherently bad.

Limepie: the chest solution is
going though and above the dirt part over the goal.
Tenta:
What happened with the palette? If it was about wanting blue coins then look at the coins on page 24 of map16. The parrot coins look so weird.
I also agree with limepie that the turn blocks are not at all an improvement. The dirt part itself however, is somewhat odd, but not to bad. I think the whole dirt area might be improved aesthetically though. I also think there might be an ASM to hide the dirt area from the outside, but I could be wrong.
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Awakenyourmind
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Re: Level Clearing

Post by Awakenyourmind »

@Septentrion Pleiades:
You may not know, but half of tentas level was created by myself. I've talked to him on msn while creating it, and spoke to him about things I thought he should change. It's been awhile since we talked but one of the things I spoke to him about (the walkthrough dirt area) is the same area LimePie is talking about. I simply gave him tips on how to make things look and feel more professional. I wouldn't steer him wrong when I've helped him with this level already.
I'm simply suggesting there. tenta told me on msn he doesn't want certain things changed and I respected that and didn't mess with what he had created himself. :P





@LimePie: I'll need to play his current version to see if he's changed some of the areas I spoke to him about. It sounds like (the walkthrough dirt area) is still how it was before. That was one of the areas I noticed that could be redesigned. We haven't talked much on msn in awhile and I've been off doing my Yoshi's Island hacking thing but I'll either check the rom or talk to tenta.
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Re: Level Clearing

Post by raocow »

Franky, if you are jonesing so hard to do a level.... would you consider giving 'making the last level' a try? The most popular idea seems to be to make it a level that reviews asmt (the first), in some way. Do you want to give it a spin? I wouldn't ask just anyone to do this, but I think I can trust you with this! (if anyone objects please say so)
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Septentrion Pleiades
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Re: Level Clearing

Post by Septentrion Pleiades »

raocow wrote:Franky, if you are jonesing so hard to do a level.... would you consider giving 'making the last level' a try? The most popular idea seems to be to make it a level that reviews asmt (the first), in some way. Do you want to give it a spin? I wouldn't ask just anyone to do this, but I think I can trust you with this! (if anyone objects please say so)
Or less ambitiously we apparently have a switch open, and I'm basing it on the last post in the switch thread.

Check announcement thread.
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Awakenyourmind
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Re: Level Clearing

Post by Awakenyourmind »

I'd take the last level over the P-switch Palace. Since it's end game difficulty, things will go very smooth. I seem to be much better at creating levels and coming up with ideas when the difficulty is up there enough. I'd be very motivated for this, only problem would be the time. How long would I have to finish this level. I'll be leaving tomorrow for five days on a moving job, so I can't start until I get back. Though I'll be free when I get back, plus I work fast when I'm motivated.

If we can figure out the time restraints, I'd be glad to do this and we can go into further details of how the level should be and which resources should be used.
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Re: Level Clearing

Post by Septentrion Pleiades »

Franky wrote: I'd be very motivated for this, only problem would be the time. How long would I have to finish this level. I'll be leaving tomorrow for five days on a moving job, so I can't start until I get back. Though I'll be free when I get back, plus I work fast when I'm motivated.
You should have plenty of time, just update at least weekly, and as often as possible. Just going by the final boss there should be months to go.
Taking the switch level hasn't technically been approved yet, but five days plenty of time.
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Awakenyourmind
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Re: Level Clearing

Post by Awakenyourmind »

If that's the case then there wont be a problem. I'm confident in my skills and I can adapt to ideas and making bigger levels with end game difficulty are my specialty. I wont need a ton of time I just wanted to make sure I have more then one or two weeks from when I return. It's better not to rush things any way and having a small deadline can weigh on your mind. I don't plan on taking forever either, I've been waiting along time to see this project finished :P


Edit: I don't know if you already have the GFX and Music in mind or if you want me to figure that out myself. You'll have to give me more details on that. Shouldn't be a problem either way.
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Re: Level Clearing

Post by Septentrion Pleiades »

Franky wrote:Edit: I don't know if you already have the GFX and Music in mind or if you want me to figure that out myself. You'll have to give me more details on that. Shouldn't be a problem either way.
Music is already planned, and here is limepie's instructions post.
limepie20 wrote:Switch palaces, switch palaces. How will they work in this game?

No switch palace will have a designated color assigned to it. There will be four separate switch palaces, but the player will have the option of the color switch they would like to press. For instance, one may want to press the blue switch first and then green and then yellow and then red. Or they may want to press them in any of the other 23 permutations.

So how will this look in-game? Each switch palace will have two separate halves. The first half will be correspondent to the location of the switch palace (which switch palace it actually is on the overworld). The second half will be your choice. So upon entering a switch palace, you will play half of a level and then pick which color switch you would like to press. After picking a color, you will go through another half designated to that color.

With four switch palaces, eight different level sections naturally exist, and with that, one person may design any one of the eight level sections.

Signups:
22 - Cirno & Septentrion Pleiades
103 - Lv27MarkerMMan
121 - Septentrion Pleiades
123 - Jolpengammler
F8 - Pheonix
F9 - SyStemkraSh5642
FA - Isocitration
FB - Wyatt

Things level designers need to keep in mind:
Firstly, the switch palace levels have an abstract theme. We aren't providing universal graphics or anything, just make your level abstract.
Secondly, don't worry about music. The music will be universal and it might be this or this.
Thirdly, you are only designing half of a level, not a full one. Keep the length appropriate.
Fourthly, you may post updates to your level in the testing thread and in the clearing thread (when it is finished). Specify that your level is a switch palace level in the clearing thread, so clearers can accurately review your work.
Fifthly, the levels are late game so make sure the difficulty is appropriate as well.
Sixthly, don't put any dragon coins or chests in your level.
Seventhly, have fun. I'll confiscate your level if you don't.
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