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Level Clearing

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AUS
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Re: Level Clearing

Postby AUS » 7 years ago

flameofdoubt wrote:As far as restarting, you can use those 9 screens, they're fine, but you need to add a lot more after it too, or make the maze more complex, with significant differences in each room. Most mazes either have completely different rooms, so you can tell where in the maze you are, or they have nearly identical rooms that can be traversed in less than 5 seconds.
OK.
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Ometeotl
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Re: Level Clearing

Postby Ometeotl » 7 years ago

flameofdoubt wrote:Ometeotl: Good grief that....that is a palette. The ninji without platforms part doesn't need to be removed, but the player needs to be made aware that they can't stand on the ground, otherwise they (like i) would assume you have to take your time and go on the platform.
Fair enough. I'll try to think of someway to make it clear.
The level is kinda short. Where normally I might expect three 'stages' or areas to a level, then the exit, the level felt like it finished as the second stage begun.
Well there is a secret exit that's a full "section", so to speak. I don't know if you were aware in including that in your assessment.

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Paralars
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Re: Level Clearing

Postby Paralars » 7 years ago

I think the puzzle in AUS' level is that you have to find out that you need to fly somewhere because the rooms repeat (pretty obvious soon), then you have to find out which baby yoshi is the "blue" yoshi (you need to look at the koopa behaviour to find out) and then you feed it and look for a place where you can fly (clouds are hints).
How is that not a puzzle?
(well, the level is pretty short, though, could be twice as long with a midpoint or something)
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flameofdoubt
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Re: Level Clearing

Postby flameofdoubt » 7 years ago

shdwdrgnix: One last thing. Is there a tile for an inside corner? The start screen shows it best, it looks like there's a missing tile at each of the corners, though that might just be how the tileset is. If that's just how the tileset is, then it's cleared. If it's fixable, then do so and it's cleared.

ometeotl: I didn't know there was a secret area.

Remove the downward blue coin arrow in the secret area, it's misleading.

The key is unfair because it requires you to jump in a pit without any clues, and that's the kind of thing you'd only do after becoming desperate because you couldn't find the key in any sensible places. If the downward coin arrows were there, instead of elsewhere, then that would fit the clue and this problem would be solved.

I'm a bit confused. I checked in lunar magic but I can't seem to find a keyhole sprite in your sublevel. Is it a custom sprite? Is there actually one there?

Even with the secret area, which is good, the level still feels very short. For one thing the player will only be doing one of the areas in each run, so even if there's twice as much content it still feels just as short.

paralars: Any yoshi can fly with a disco shell, so finding the right yoshi isn't a puzzle.
Even if there were no disco shells, there's no hint that the yoshis are wrongly coloured. Sensible players will just assume (like me) that there is no blue yoshi.
Even if there was a clue that you have to find the right yoshi, and that you can work it out based on how the koopas act, then despite being an interesting, but very brief puzzle, the rest of the level needs considerable expansion:
The level boils down to figuring out how many different rooms there are (5), which one you are in (instantly noticeable because of koopa/yoshi colour), and picking a door you haven't gone through yet, to check if it's the exit.
At some point during trying all of the ten doors you'll get the right one, and not because you've done anything clever or worked anything difficult out, just because you're trying all of them one after the other.
What's there is good, but it's only 9 screens. Mazes either need to be more simple than that, and rely on the player exploring a large number of nearly identical rooms, usually with one defining feature, or more complicated, with several rather large and varied rooms, and the trick is to explore all paths, rather than just finding the exit.
Plus a level that is entirely a maze feels very unfulfilling unless you get to enter and exit it personally, as if it's a challenge being placed in your way rather than somewhere you're dropped into. Because the rooms are nearly identical, it doesn't feel like you've made any progress when you find the exit, as if you might have been in some space-time loop and actually only travelled like 12 feet over a few seconds.
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Ometeotl
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Re: Level Clearing

Postby Ometeotl » 7 years ago

Downward blue coin arrow? Anyway, the messagebox at the beginning of the area gives you a clue as to where to look for the key as well as the hidden path to the keyhole.

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Daizo
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Re: Level Clearing

Postby Daizo » 7 years ago

Diddyboy100 wrote:This should be the final bata level! :P

Beta, took 2 days to upload for some reason <_>
Reposted because its not tested plus its in the last page.
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Re: Level Clearing

Postby flameofdoubt » 7 years ago

Sorry Diddyboy100, I will get to your level as soon as I can.

Ometeotl: There is a downward pointing arrow made of blue/purple coins above a death pit.

Yes the messagebox gives a clue but the clue doesn't lead to the key or the hidden path to the keyhole; "look for the blue which sees the world from a different perspective", this doesn't mean anything, and as a result it can be made to mean anything.
There is a place with a tree that looks like it has eyes, which fits with perspective...but that's not where the key or the keyhole are. There is a place that is the only place where a blue tree grows horizontally, which is a different kind of perspective...but that's not where the key or the keyhole are either.
There is nothing different about where the key is, that makes the clue relevant to it, or would make you risk jumping to your death. There is nothing different about where the keyhole is, that makes the clue relevant to it, or would make you press down at the completely hidden pipe.
The sublevel has four blue things that could be specific in order to imply the position of the key or keyhole: Tree trunks, ground, flowers, and coins. The tree trunks, ground, flower and coins around the key and keyhole pipe are exactly the same as those found everywhere else in the sublevel.

Am I missing something blindingly obvious or does the clue need to be fixed?
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Ometeotl
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Re: Level Clearing

Postby Ometeotl » 7 years ago

The coins above the key and entrance are upside-down.

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flameofdoubt
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Re: Level Clearing

Postby flameofdoubt » 7 years ago

Ometeotl: I'm not entirely happy about it being coins, just because they aren't something you generally look at, except for looking at formations of them, plus they disappear once you touch them. There is the reset door but it's still only giving them the same small window to see them. I can't deny that the clue does point to the coins, it's just that it doesn't point to them specifically enough, I feel. What it really hinges on is whether or not this is my problem or not; how did people in the testing thread do, were they able to find it easily or did they have to be told?
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Ometeotl
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Re: Level Clearing

Postby Ometeotl » 7 years ago

I had to tell someone else too, so I guess it's not clear enough.

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Re: Level Clearing

Postby flameofdoubt » 7 years ago

Ometeotl: You shouldn't need to make it too obvious though. I mean the difference is clearly there, I just didn't see it. Maybe a slight change in hue...but then that wouldn't necessarily fit the perspective clue. Hue is a lot easier to make out though than shading. Or, if the clue made it more clear that you were looking for a difference between coins, then the player would be looking for that, and it should be a lot more visible.
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Ometeotl
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Re: Level Clearing

Postby Ometeotl » 7 years ago

I'll think of something.

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AUS
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Re: Level Clearing

Postby AUS » 7 years ago

flameofdoubt wrote:paralars: Any yoshi can fly with a disco shell, so finding the right yoshi isn't a puzzle.
Even if there were no disco shells, there's no hint that the yoshis are wrongly coloured. Sensible players will just assume (like me) that there is no blue yoshi.
Even if there was a clue that you have to find the right yoshi, and that you can work it out based on how the koopas act, then despite being an interesting, but very brief puzzle, the rest of the level needs considerable expansion:
The level boils down to figuring out how many different rooms there are (5), which one you are in (instantly noticeable because of koopa/yoshi colour), and picking a door you haven't gone through yet, to check if it's the exit.
At some point during trying all of the ten doors you'll get the right one, and not because you've done anything clever or worked anything difficult out, just because you're trying all of them one after the other.
What's there is good, but it's only 9 screens. Mazes either need to be more simple than that, and rely on the player exploring a large number of nearly identical rooms, usually with one defining feature, or more complicated, with several rather large and varied rooms, and the trick is to explore all paths, rather than just finding the exit.
Plus a level that is entirely a maze feels very unfulfilling unless you get to enter and exit it personally, as if it's a challenge being placed in your way rather than somewhere you're dropped into. Because the rooms are nearly identical, it doesn't feel like you've made any progress when you find the exit, as if you might have been in some space-time loop and actually only travelled like 12 feet over a few seconds.
The hint that Yoshi's are wrongly colored is that the koopas are wrongly colored, which should be clear if you know what color does what. FYI: Yoshi follows the same palette that koopas do.

I understand that the level isn't really that great at the moment, but I don't agree when you say that the puzzle boils down to brute forcing. The only way to beat the level is to use a blue yoshi. You are correct in saying any yoshi can fly with a disco shell-BUT-the only sublevel that leads to the end of the level has no disco shells in it. You are required to have found a blue yoshi, which is simple if you look at the colors of the koopas and which ones are switched with which. It is a legitimate puzzle.

With that said, I understand it needs to be bigger, and if the puzzle aspect isn't fun, I suppose I can take that part out. This level wasn't originally going to be ghost-house-esc.

P.S. If there is any way to beat the level without a blue yoshi, explain how please. It's not meant to be that way.
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"oh no my best friend was replaced by a evil demon shadow monster"
"argh i am the evil shadow monster demon shadow"
Vip is pronounced "Beep"
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Daizo
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Re: Level Clearing

Postby Daizo » 7 years ago

Diddyboy100 wrote:
Diddyboy100 wrote:This should be the final bata level! :P

Beta, took 2 days to upload for some reason <_>
Reposted because its not tested plus its in the last page.
Do I have to wait for 4 days, Test is please :|
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Links above if you want to check 'em out... or not, since these are overlooked.

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Re: Level Clearing

Postby flameofdoubt » 7 years ago

Diddyboy100: Fix "alot" to "a lot". Not really happy with using cement blocks in such a blatant fashion (first room), unless the area is meant to be manufactured, as it looks very unnatural. You can't see the bounce blocks in the first room because the game camera always appears above the lowest row of tiles, so maybe bring everything up one tile. Other than that it's a bit tricky but not terribly long, so I think it hits the middle ground of being doable and fun for this kind of level quite well. Fix those issues and it's cleared.

AUS: The reason it is brute force is that it's very difficult to distinguish the rooms from one another. If you know that there isn't a disco shell in the 'final' room then that helps, but otherwise, you kind of have to keep trying doors until one of them is the final room and your blue yoshi is useful.

The problem here is really a lack of information. You can't assume the player knows that the yoshis and koopas use the same palette, and you can't assume that they'll think "oh the koopas are different, i guess the yoshi's are too!". You need a messagebox or some kind of hint, that lets the player know the whole colour scheme is confused. I know the level name hints at it but it's not really enough. People can forget level names very easily while playing and it's easy to survive indefinitely in that level, as long as you're good at managing koopa attacks.
Also you can't rely on the player seeing a yellow koopa kicking a green shell to know that it must really be a blue koopa. These days people can exgfx and palette swap and do all sorts of stuff, so they could just assume (as i did) that it was some kind of visual change, or an entirely new sprite, and not that in fact all the yellow koopas and yoshi are really blue ones.

The rules are so easy to change these days, you need to let the player know exactly what the rules are before they're equipped to solve the puzzle.

Looking at it objectively, it is a cool puzzle, but you need to let the player know that yoshis follow the same colour as koopas, and you need to let the player know that all of the same koopas have the same wrong coloured shells. I would recommend using a different background exgfx, so it looks like the place is set in a factory of some kind that creates the goopas. Either tell the player that there's been a malfunction and the koopas are being painted the wrong colours, or show a green one falling behind some scenery, and a red one appearing out of the bottom, effectively showing them that a paint change has taken place. Ideally you would show them rather than tell them, but needs must.

I would also recommend making the rooms different, so it feels like the player is exploring rather than being tricked. The big hurdle at the moment is that all the rooms look identical. Having different rooms does I admit cloud the real puzzle, of finding the right coloured koopas and yoshis, but once I knew the solution to the puzzle, and had found a blue yoshi, I spent the majority of my time playing the level just looking for the right door, and none of the areas gave any indication as to which was the right door (the final room does have all blue koopas, but i cycled around the rooms so many times without actually finding the final room, so i didn't see the blue koopas to know it could be this room).

As I see it, you need to let the players know koopas have the wrong colours, and that in each different room, those colours change. You need to let them know that yoshis have been similarly coloured, and you also need to let them know that they need to find a blue yoshi to get to the exit. I would recommend having the exit visible, but not reachable, in a very early room, so they know what the goal is throughout, and remove all disco shells, so that the only way to fly is the blue yoshi. So they know they have to search the (ideally different rooms) and find the miscoloured blue yoshi, then bring it back to the start point so they can leave the level. Also have the exit door have an exit sign over it so they know it is the exit. If you do those things and (with different rooms) the level feels long enough, it should be clearable.

(This seems to clash heavily with what I was saying when I said start again, and I was partially wrong there, but when I said to restart I did mean that you basically had a starting point here, and needed to make a full level out of it. Even in an identical maze, 9 screens feels like you're being shortchanged a level.)
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Daizo
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Re: Level Clearing

Postby Daizo » 7 years ago

flameofdoubt wrote:Diddyboy100: Fix "alot" to "a lot". Not really happy with using cement blocks in such a blatant fashion (first room), unless the area is meant to be manufactured, as it looks very unnatural. You can't see the bounce blocks in the first room because the game camera always appears above the lowest row of tiles, so maybe bring everything up one tile. Other than that it's a bit tricky but not terribly long, so I think it hits the middle ground of being doable and fun for this kind of level quite well. Fix those issues and it's cleared.
Okay, I'll higher up the bounce blocks in the beginning of the level and replace the cement blocks, got it.
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Negative
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Re: Level Clearing

Postby Negative » 7 years ago

Welp, heres a new version of my level.

http://www.smwcentral.net/?p=files&u=17962

Unnamed one on the bottom.

Edit: Whoops, I forgot to change the buzzy beetle pallette. Now its fixed.
Last edited by Negative on 04 Dec 2011, 21:24, edited 1 time in total.

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Daizo
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Re: Level Clearing

Postby Daizo » 7 years ago

I sure hope this is final, feedback if not.

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tenta
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Re: Level Clearing

Postby tenta » 7 years ago

Well, Raocow said i can put my level in the clearing post since no one said anything on my level for like 4 or 5 days so here we go!

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AUS
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Re: Level Clearing

Postby AUS » 7 years ago

Eh, I've lost motivation on my level..And it's not because of the disagreements/arguments that'v happened, I just..Eh. Well, sorry. I guess my level can go to the dredge or something. :p Or if one of you want to pick it up.

If noone wants to pick it up in a day or two I'll release all of my resources back via the signup thread. :P
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"oh no my best friend was replaced by a evil demon shadow monster"
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raocow
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Re: Level Clearing

Postby raocow » 7 years ago

jesus christ man isn't it basically done?

I swear if you seriously pull this off again you are barred from the project.
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AUS
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Re: Level Clearing

Postby AUS » 7 years ago

EDIT: Note: This is my 2nd level. I don't know if you know that, my first one was cleared.

Previous post
-----
No, it isn't really. All I had was an idea and a mostly all over the place level, and I have other things in life that take up time that I'd really rather do than make a level at this point. Not that they're necessarily more important, it's that just what I said: I have lost inspiration. It's just what it is. I could make you an uninspired level if you want, though. :| That's why I mentioned it here first incase someone else wants to take it over. I mean, it's got the potential, I suppose.
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"oh no my best friend was replaced by a evil demon shadow monster"
"argh i am the evil shadow monster demon shadow"
Vip is pronounced "Beep"
I go by ToNi now. Trying to homogenize my internet handle.

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raocow
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Re: Level Clearing

Postby raocow » 7 years ago

Oh wait, wait, you got another level?

Oh jeez, I'm sorry, haha! I thought it was that one level that has been thrown back and forth. I didn't know it was a second one you just started. I'm sorry man! Miscommunication on my end! Real appologies here!
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AUS
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Re: Level Clearing

Postby AUS » 7 years ago

Hahaha no problem. I'd probably be like "wait what seriously" too if I were you in that situation. :lol:
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"oh no my best friend was replaced by a evil demon shadow monster"
"argh i am the evil shadow monster demon shadow"
Vip is pronounced "Beep"
I go by ToNi now. Trying to homogenize my internet handle.

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Wyatt
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Re: Level Clearing

Postby Wyatt » 7 years ago

tenta wrote:Well, Raocow said i can put my level in the clearing post since no one said anything on my level for like 4 or 5 days so here we go!

La joie de glisser
This level doesn't really "work" as is, but it has a really cool idea that I'd like to see fleshed out. Also the level design itself felt fine, if a little short and unfocused.
Alright, first, let me start with the good: The message blocks were really cute. I know french pretty well, but anybody could pick out "blocs invisibles", which is really all that matters in terms of gameplay.

But then the blocks were just kinda strewn about without warning. I died pretty much every time I found one, even knowing I was supposed to look for them. Essentially the warning did nothing.

HOWEVER, had the question blocks been marked by, say, a coin, it would have been cool: the player would see the coin blocks coming, but only if they had paid attention to the message box. It doesn't have to be a coin either: I remember that an old draft of raocow's level had some cement blocks embedded in the ground under invisible coin blocks. This got removed because people thought it was unfair, but had they been specifically looking out for coin blocks it would have been perfectly ok. Experiment to see what works.

Anyway, this should be the main gimmick of the level! Not coin blocks exclusively, but message boxes giving you cryptic warnings. The player is given some information which helps them through the level, but it's in this language they probably don't read! You could do all kinds of things with this: as I said before, "blocs invisibles" is simple. But for the second half of the level, you could have a message where a french-illiterate player would really have to look at the french, trying to figure out the meaning of the words based on how they look, maybe noticing some root words shared with english. Since you're bilingual, it shouldn't be too hard to think of words where this works. Try things out, 'cause if you can make this work, your level will be not only fun, but really unique as well.

Oh, and remove those homing bullet bills. They're jerks and are no fun to deal with.


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