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Level Clearing

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Re: Level Clearing

Post by raocow »

I haven't played your level, but from limepie's criticism I'd say what your level lack is variety. You wait for an enemy, you react to it, you go to the next enemy, etc. As far as I'm concerned, a level should always be making you do something. Either you're observing a danger to try and see what to do with it, you are actively avaiding said danger, or you're looking for something to help you.

Always be doing something! Even 'rest areas' should be active (though never overwhelming, but a way to seize up what is coming along).

Rail levels can be really fun, it entirely depends on what you do with it. So I don't want to discourage you from doing a rail level. But don't just see it as 'a rail level' - make a level that is fun before anything!
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Re: Level Clearing

Post by Paralars »

well I gave you some ideas already, way stations, rail switches, hopping.
Or maybe just use a crossfire bullet and fireball generator
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Re: Level Clearing

Post by limepie20 »

Leifytwig123 wrote:Are you suggesting that I should try and make the level more fun, or are you saying change the entire gimmick.
Basically, the level being fun is most important. You could change the gimmick if you wanted to, but you need to find a way to make the level more fun.
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Re: Level Clearing

Post by Leifytwig123 »

Okay, thanks guys. I'll see what I can do!
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Re: Level Clearing

Post by Fireyblaze »

Trying to get cleared again. Even though I didn't get told to, I fixed the status bar pallete except for one thing. But all it does is affect the color of the "Demos" in the bar. I changed the color of the No Demo passing block to be an orangeish yellow since that was one of Wyatt's complaints. The music was changed the port that is already in the hack and I have placeholder music in the cave in the IPS provided because I was too lazy to download the latest Addmusic.

I added my chest and a hidden block that is needed to actually get the chest. It isn't hard to find the block, but don't be surprised when you bonk your head on it. The file I am providing has all of the levels and such because if it gets cleared, I want to submit it immediately.

And uhm...enjoy?
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Re: Level Clearing

Post by limepie20 »

Lv27MarkerMMan:
Oh wow, you got that block counter to work! It looks great. I'm sure you know, but it doesn't have layer priority so it goes behind the foreground which looks kinda bad. See if you can get that fixed, because it really does help. It shouldn't be a big fix either, but if it really is, just keep it, I guess. At the area where the doors are in the first sublevel, you should put a number or something above the door so people know how many blocks to break. It would really help. There's a big problem with the second part: sometime the screen randomly gets glitched while you are spin jumping. I don't know what causes it but it probably has something to do with the block counter. I didn't see any reason to have it in the second part (unless I missed something) so I guess you can just take it out of that part?
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Videoguy:
I think that the foreground palette of the first area should be the same as the palette for the second area. I didn't like the second area at all. Firstly, once you get to the second area, there isn't music anymore which is kinda weird. Also, the second area has vanilla chuck graphics. But the problem is the excess of bros. They are way too hard to dodge. Especially while racing. There also sprite limitation problems with them. You should just remove all of them and put different enemies in their place because they really are unfair.

Lobster_Horde:
Ah, sorry but I mant to clear your level after playing through the secret. You're cleared now.

TheGuyWhoIsSitting:
The "of the month" on the picture looks really odd. Try spacing the letters better so the words are more distinguishable. I liked the graphics of the whole level; they were really nice. I just didn't enjoy the gameplay that much. I don't know what to say, because my only complaint about it was that it wasn't fun to me. It was just boring to me. All I can say is try to incorporate the gelatin into the level design or something to make it affect gameplay so you can do some cool stuff with like. Maybe having it act like quicksand which we have blocks for.

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Re: Level Clearing

Post by Kevinskie555 »

Since my level didn't get cleared - Should I post it here again or should I let it go through Testing and Dev first when I fixed it?
Last edited by Kevinskie555 9 years ago, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Level Clearing

Post by limepie20 »

It's whatever you want to do. You can post it back here.
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Re: Level Clearing

Post by spitznagl »

>>Updated secret area<<

Fixed what Wyatt suggested and then some. I also added custom music to it. This area no longer requires perfection from the player. It now lets you tank two obstacles of your choice.
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Re: Level Clearing

Post by VideoGuy »

limepie20 wrote:Lv27MarkerMMan:
I'm sure you know, but it doesn't have layer priority so it goes behind the foreground which looks kinda bad. See if you can get that fixed, because it really does help. It shouldn't be a big fix either, but if it really is, just keep it, I guess. There's a big problem with the second part: sometime the screen randomly gets glitched while you are spin jumping. I don't know what causes it but it probably has something to do with the block counter. I didn't see any reason to have it in the second part (unless I missed something) so I guess you can just take it out of that part?
Just replying to this since I did the ASM for this level. I'm working on fixing the priority issue, I'm hoping I can figure that out, I'm sure it's possible. As for the random glitching, that's never happened in my testing so I don't know what's going on there, but I'll look into it some more.
limepie20 wrote: Videoguy:
I think that the foreground palette of the first area should be the same as the palette for the second area. I didn't like the second area at all. Firstly, once you get to the second area, there isn't music anymore which is kinda weird. Also, the second area has vanilla chuck graphics. But the problem is the excess of bros. They are way too hard to dodge. Especially while racing. There also sprite limitation problems with them. You should just remove all of them and put different enemies in their place because they really are unfair.
Okay, noted. I was unsure about the difficulty here, but I suppose it is a bit excessive.I'll see what I can do to tone it down a bit. "Bros" was the theme I was going for in the cave part, but I suppose some replacements might help with the difficulty.
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Re: Level Clearing

Post by JellyBlock »

limepie20 wrote: JellyBlock:
The way your upside down slopes act like full solid blocks kinda bothers me. It makes it hard to predict how to jump. Also, I don't know whether you are aware, but the new parrot coins don't give you any coins, so you should fix your level to be beatable without them. Otherwise, it's a nice, easy level. After, that is fixed, you are cleared.
The level was actually already beatable without the dragon coins, so there was no need to change anything there. Regarding the upside down slopes, I think you're referring to the ones above the pit towards the end of the level, so I just straight up removed those and replaced them with some other blocks. I think I changed all the things you addressed, so I hope I'm good to go! Once again, the name of my level is "Coin Town USA". I'm saying this because it wouldn't let me change the title in the game. Down below is the changed version of my level, so have at it!
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Re: Level Clearing

Post by limepie20 »

You have to go and submit your level at the Level Submissions thread. Please read the first post there.
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Re: Level Clearing

Post by shdwdrgnix »

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Took longer than expected to fix, I had to remake the entire first room. But anyways, I fixed all the issues that were mentioned earlier.
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Re: Level Clearing

Post by flameofdoubt »

Septentrion Pleiades: Which level is yours isn't clear. Is it the unnamed level in the last spot?

agie777: The graphics in the switch room-like area look messed up, or is that intended? The level is very short, an extended walk with a hill at the end. Having munchers on the hill looks kind of bad, is there some other graphic you could use that does the same job but fits the surroundings better?

Overall I like the challenges in your level. the jagged pits are really good, I like them a lot, and the hill in the clouds at the end is a really nice platforming challenge, different from what the player is used to and takes a bit of practice. Some of the banzai bills are tricky to manoeuvre around too. The main problem is that otherwise the level isn't very interesting, visually or in its layout. The graphics are just a standard plains level, and then a standard clouds area. Although each challenge, like the pits or the bills or the hill, are interesting, the bits in between are not. You need to try and incorporate those challenges into an ongoing setting for the level, rather than having one challenge after another being enough. I would recommend setting the level in a mountain (at least just as an example). Make everything gray and jagged and stoney, and layout the platforms so that it feels you're climbing around a mountainside or cliff face. See if you can find some music that simulates (might need to use samples for this) breathy wind noises, so you know you're high up. Then i'd recommend taking out most of the enemies, so that it seems more desolate and lonely. Put some graphics of a camp or campsite at the start of the level, so you know you're heading out from somewhere. See if you can fit some foreground falling snow in there. have snow be on some of the rocks. Then I would suggest extending the cloud section, try out new stuff with the muncher-hill idea, and make that first one a bit easier to ease the player in. In the cloud area make it nearly to the top of the mountain, so more snow and a louder wind, maybe even some real wind, and have more snow graphics on everything. then have a new final area, where you ascend through the top of the cloud belt, and reach the top of the mountain, and there's no music or snow or enemies, just silence, and then maybe as a final joke make it so that entering the goal (which will be right at the top of the mountain of course) makes you walk just far enough to suggest you jump off the other edge. so the final area would look like a big triangle pointing out of a cloud floor. If you can do that, and make it feel like you're climbing a mountain, then i think you could work your neat challenges into it well, and it'll be a lot more interesting than a plains level with normal mario music. If you have something better, then go ahead and try that, but you need to do something so that your level doesn't feel like it's staged just as a 'challenge level'. You seem to be good at making mario platforming challenges, and i don't want to see that go to waste.

fireyblaze: The HUD needs fixing so demo's colours are in there instead of red (or are you using that as extra palette space?) Right near the exit there's a messed up map16 tile. Other than that I think it's pretty much cleared.

spitznagel: Fantastic level, I like how the key-fits-lock fetch quest puzzles are developed to become more complicated and so more interesting. Although the level doesn't seem to have any particular obvious theme, it's clearly set 'somewhere', so that works great.
The secret level is really cool, and I like it a lot, but it is very difficult. This wouldn't be a problem if people got a midpoint, but they're going to have to find their way to the secret exit every time they want to try it, and that's going to be annoying. Because of disco shells a lot of it is slightly random, in that disco shells and mario's movement up slopes and suchlike are all a bit ambiguous, so it's not really something you can predict or react for. I would recommend either swapping the exits and making a midpoint just as you enter the underground area, or put another feather in almost-plain-sight, but behind a 5-dragon-coins-to-pass block, and then put one of the dragon coins inside the early parts of the secret area. That way only someone who's already got there once can access the shortcut to get back there quicker each time. Once this issue is resolved it should be clearable.

shdwdrgnix: I'll work on coming up with a better critique when I have time, but right now all I can really say is that it's very well presented, with nice music and interesting graphics, but the level design is very amateurish, just throwing the same challenges at you over and again, and without anything really interesting. It uses jerkmoves like having a saw or thwomp appear at you from offscreen, plus the music clashes with the level. The music is very intense, pushing you constantly forward and making you run, but if you do that the level kills you. The way the level is set out it has lots of tricky jumps one after the other. The only way to make them is by being patient, which the music goes against. You need to have easier platforming or calmer music, though Ideally you'd start again with the level design. It seems the level is meant to be a castle or something, but there's been so many castles in so many mario games and hacks. It'd be nice to see something different. Also we'd rather you used the a2mt baserom so that all the universal graphics and such are already in there, rather than starting from a clean rom. Have you gone through the testing thread and had it okay'd to go to clearing by them yet?
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Re: Level Clearing

Post by Septentrion Pleiades »

flameofdoubt wrote:Septentrion Pleiades: Which level is yours isn't clear. Is it the unnamed level in the last spot?
YESSSSSSS!

It's right below the others. The name doesn't show up for some reason.
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Re: Level Clearing

Post by Cmbheadquarters »

Did everything, apart from your preference. I really don't have time, really sorry... :( Lots of homework recently. but did everything else. the chest SHOULD be next to the mushroom when inserted. http://bin.smwcentral.net/u/15352/024%2BAir%2BArena.ips
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Re: Level Clearing

Post by Fireyblaze »

flameofdoubt wrote:fireyblaze: The HUD needs fixing so demo's colours are in there instead of red (or are you using that as extra palette space?) Right near the exit there's a messed up map16 tile. Other than that I think it's pretty much cleared.
The HUD can be fixed, but I have basically everything all together. I was wanting to start on a new level as soon as this one is submitted, so I might leave like that. The block was supposed to be the hidden balloon you needed to get the chest. I will fix that before it is submitted.
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Re: Level Clearing

Post by capefeather »

I've heard the infinite lives concern and I wasn't sure if it's possible to life grind on the koopa generator, but I've put in cement blocks anyway so that that probably won't happen. On the other hand, this seems to make the spikes a bit more bothersome, and they're supposed to just prevent you from flying to the coin...

The fireball generator in the first room was a relic from when there was only the one plant at the end. I guess getting past it ultimately involves timing, but really, I agree that it often just punishes bad luck, so it's gone. Strangely, I miss it, though...

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Re: Level Clearing

Post by flameofdoubt »

Septentrion Pleiades: I haven't managed it through the level yet. I'll keep trying but i'm stuck on the ice section, maybe i need to bring the yoshi. Criticism so far would be that it's both too simple and too complex. In that, the level layout itself is fairly simple and not very interesting, with designs in the hills that don't really count, and lots of those really annoying tricky jumps off tiny diagonal platforms. The main area of it is just one long flat plain with the occasional bump sticking out to make running along it annoying. It needs to be a bit more interesting than that, exploring different ways to get around, and not just having a long plain with bumps in it or tiny platforms suspended in the air. It's quite annoying how if you mess up a single jump you have to start the whole process again. a level structure where you go from place to place rather than retreading the same screens would help that. It seems that you're using the same level design but with different themes; there might be more than regular and ice that i haven't seen yet, but I'll just say that if people are going to be expected to go through this same area again and again but with different tinted graphics, then you need to give them something fairly simple, but interesting to do. The platforming needs to be simple, the bros and plants and bumps make it kind of annoying because it's very stop-start rather than flowing, but it also needs to be interesting, ideally presenting challenges that are altered by the difference in theme. the ice physics didn't really seem to affect the way you traverse the level layout other than how ice physics normally make jumping and positioning a bit trickier. A big problem is that the aesthetics look very plain. I'm not expecting super fancy graphics swaps or anything, it would just be nice if, even if this is a plains level, if it tried a different slant on it. Anything above the level of just recolouring it or just using the mario plains graphics really. And try to make the landscape seem believeable; right now almost all of the floor is covered up (that's good) but it's almost all flat with no gentle hills or slopes. A flat plain is ok but if the plain is flat then it doesn't make sense for there to be different land levels, so it doesn't make sense to have platforms high in the air. It just seems kind of inconsistent. I would recommend taking out the fancy carvings in the mountains, making the land seem a bit more natural and wavy; explore different height levels throughout, and give several access points to the high up areas, not just one at the opposite end of the level from where you start; make some non slanty high up areas, with solid ground to stand on, preferably part of some big background hill so that the platform isn't just floating; try to find some new plains graphics or use some someone else has, but mix it up in your level in a new way. And if people are going to replay the same sections of level multiple times, don't just throw different enemies in there, overall it needs to be simpler but each individual instance of the level section needs to be more complex, somehow affected by whatever characterises the reapparance, so make a landscape which, if ice physics were applied to it, would be radically different to traverse.

I like the advanced protip, good humour there, especially as the player has to work to actually reach the message box, and handle that one animal that people aren't used to platforming around. See if you can't work some of that humour into the design of the level; it shows promise, and more importantly you show promise, but it does need some heavy reworking from what i've seen so far.


Cmbheadquarters: At the point where this weird teal thing falls from the sky, there are too many sprites on screen and an integral drop-platform doesn't spawn. I got it to appear by accident while experimenting with L and R looking. Weird boss, but neatly done. What exactly was it? And should I have known what it was? (looked kind of like robotnik/eggman, but the name said kigol?) I really like the atmosphere in your level, it's really great, especially the muted rock tones, and the music fits really well. I kind of wish the level was longer, but I don't know how much more you could do with the theme you had going, or if it would be a good idea to risk it overstaying it's welcome (it might be that leaving the player wanting more is the best way to endear them to your level, as I certainly have been). The only thing I would say is you need different boss music. The boss music completely ruins the atmosphere you've built up, it needs to be more laid back or at least use similar instruments. I think what you've successfully done here is capture a kirby-esque atmosphere; despite it being an arena in the air, it feels almost playful, just like kirby levels, and that doesn't mean you can't have tricky frantic bosses, but I think a few tweaks that would make the boss atmosphere feel like a culmination of the level atmosphere, rather than being in opposition to it, would round your level off nicely.
Ideally the boss would be a final test to see if the player has mastered the skills that the level challenges you to use, in this case quick reactions, and timing when to jump off drop platforms. A boss that you have to fight while moving from drop platform to drop platform would fit in really well there, and I think what you have now might be modifiable, if you just make it follow the player and then have that section of the level just be a long line of drop platforms at different heights, so that every now and then one of the platforms starts high enough that you can make a jump to hit the boss but survive by landing on the next platform, that could work really well, and fit the theme of the level better. however many platforms you put in would be a kind of natural time limit, so you'd want to leave enough to allow for plenty of mistakes, but not enough so that they feel they can keep trying forever.

If you can fix the not-appearing platform, then the only thing stopping me from clearing this level right now is it's relative shortness and the clash between the boss atmosphere and the level atmosphere. Fix those two things (either by a music change or a boss/boss-room modification or both), and maybe extend the level a little bit (not too much!) and you'll have a really great level to add to the collab, good work.

fireyblaze: Oh one other thing. It's possible to take the yoshi back into the small yoshi room, and if a yoshi and small yoshi exist in the same room the graphics overlap and yoshi's head becomes a small yoshi which looks ridiculous, so you need to make sure people can't enter there with a yoshi, or that the small yoshi doesn't appear if you already have one.
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Re: Level Clearing

Post by Septentrion Pleiades »

flameofdoubt wrote:Septentrion Pleiades: I haven't managed it through the level yet. I'll keep trying but i'm stuck on the ice section, maybe i need to bring the yoshi. Criticism so far would be that it's both too simple and too complex. In that, the level layout itself is fairly simple and not very interesting, with designs in the hills that don't really count, and lots of those really annoying tricky jumps off tiny diagonal platforms. The main area of it is just one long flat plain with the occasional bump sticking out to make running along it annoying. It needs to be a bit more interesting than that, exploring different ways to get around, and not just having a long plain with bumps in it or tiny platforms suspended in the air. It's quite annoying how if you mess up a single jump you have to start the whole process again. a level structure where you go from place to place rather than retreading the same screens would help that. It seems that you're using the same level design but with different themes; there might be more than regular and ice that i haven't seen yet, but I'll just say that if people are going to be expected to go through this same area again and again but with different tinted graphics, then you need to give them something fairly simple, but interesting to do. The platforming needs to be simple, the bros and plants and bumps make it kind of annoying because it's very stop-start rather than flowing, but it also needs to be interesting, ideally presenting challenges that are altered by the difference in theme. the ice physics didn't really seem to affect the way you traverse the level layout other than how ice physics normally make jumping and positioning a bit trickier. A big problem is that the aesthetics look very plain. I'm not expecting super fancy graphics swaps or anything, it would just be nice if, even if this is a plains level, if it tried a different slant on it. Anything above the level of just recolouring it or just using the mario plains graphics really. And try to make the landscape seem believeable; right now almost all of the floor is covered up (that's good) but it's almost all flat with no gentle hills or slopes. A flat plain is ok but if the plain is flat then it doesn't make sense for there to be different land levels, so it doesn't make sense to have platforms high in the air. It just seems kind of inconsistent. I would recommend taking out the fancy carvings in the mountains, making the land seem a bit more natural and wavy; explore different height levels throughout, and give several access points to the high up areas, not just one at the opposite end of the level from where you start; make some non slanty high up areas, with solid ground to stand on, preferably part of some big background hill so that the platform isn't just floating; try to find some new plains graphics or use some someone else has, but mix it up in your level in a new way. And if people are going to replay the same sections of level multiple times, don't just throw different enemies in there, overall it needs to be simpler but each individual instance of the level section needs to be more complex, somehow affected by whatever characterises the reapparance, so make a landscape which, if ice physics were applied to it, would be radically different to traverse.
For getting to the next part you just need to use the P switch back in the original section(three pipes lead there). Yoshi is also more a connivance for traversing the level.
You had quite the wall of text so here are your points as I understand them:

-add hills and mid level landmasses

-Get new graphics
I', not very good at graphics. Taking graphics from other levels is even difficult for me.

-remove mountain cravings
I think a only few small ones would still be nice. Should I possible remove the floating squares as well?

-Design level parts for ice physics
I only have a vague of how to do this. I have the idea to keep block in for the rhinos level but translate them into something different for Ice town.

-easier top access
I find the slopes relatively easy, but I can the other aspects easier. Also a mercy springboard might be useful in ice town.
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Re: Level Clearing

Post by raocow »

I'm going to veto having to change away from vanilla graphics, mind you, because I have said time and time again that it's okay to use vanilla graphics.
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Re: Level Clearing

Post by AUS »

Although that's not exactly what FoD said:
A big problem is that the aesthetics look very plain. I'm not expecting super fancy graphics swaps or anything, it would just be nice if, even if this is a plains level, if it tried a different slant on it.
I could interpret that in many ways, perhaps try a fancier custom pallete? :)
PS: My cleared level has vanilla graphics. Haha. :P
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Re: Level Clearing

Post by raocow »

I blame my lapse in reading comprehension in how the text is formated in a huge monolith of text.
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Re: Level Clearing

Post by Septentrion Pleiades »

I'm also having trouble comprehending it, as it appears to have a contradiction.
Anything above the level of just recolouring it or just using the mario plains graphics really.
Honestly, I wouldn't mind too much if someone changed the look of the level after submission, even though I think my level looks nice.
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Re: Level Clearing

Post by Saturn Moriya »

Oh my, that's a lot of text!

Note that I have already been cleared by Wyatt, and I just posted a little update where I changed things based on his feedback. I feel really sad about the music in the last area having to change, because it would not work as well without. Also, I couldn't find anything like a penguin switch or whatever it's supposed to be.

So besides that, I thought I was done! And now this happens...

Reply on Flameofdoubt:
The background in the secret exit is indeed intentional, and so it everything about the goal area.
The whole interesting aspect of my level is the being of the reference, and since you didn't get it, it really doesn't work.
I had the idea of using custom graphics, but nobody wanted to do the job for me, and I ended up losing my level because I failed horribly at doing it by myself. My idea was to use meaty looking graphics, to match to banzai bill steak replacement, but that's really speficic, lots of work, and something like this doesn't already exist, so I decided to just stick to classic graphics. And really, what's so bad about vanilla?
The music in the bonus room AND in the goal area are supposed to be the way they are. Didn't I put the starman stage music in the main area? Because in my opinion megaman music fits ANY level.

Getting the reference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wx0TyGYeKfg (4:02 and 5:15)
and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XO3WvqZuR4Q (9:10)
(edit) and also http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbzcRgv3xnQ
Download link: http://bin.smwcentral.net/u/13354/A2MT%2Bpatch.ips
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Your blood their blood serves the same!!
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