Level Finalization/QA List (Tweaking of Inserted Levels)
Re: Final Tweaking of Inserted Levels
dragon coins are independent from treasure chests, you don't need any to open it.
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Re: Final Tweaking of Inserted Levels
I'm agreeing with this, but I don't trust myself in being able to make it 'better', so I do hope someome dares take the mantle.Cmbheadquarters wrote:Guys, for the last time Raocows "further over there" NEEDS to be changed. If not, SMWCentral users (the ones raocow complained about in his 9th door contest) will ragezorz on A2MT because of THAT level. IT CAN'T BE DONE WITHOUT SAVES. Optional or not, rupture in reality was optional, yet do you remember the lolrage we got from that? It R-heea-ly needs to be changed...
Something I'd urge someone to do, though, is completely excise the first 'white' area, as it's not a fun room at all. What I would do is have the first forest part lead directly to what was the second 'white' area, the one where you swim in. That one would then point to the autumn area with the midpoint, and that one would lead directly to the vertical white/black alternating area.
Of course, doing this would require the 'fixer' to find a new location for one parrot coin (they can be 'easier' to get than most level since the level itself is very difficult) and a new location for the pipe that leads to the chest (and its 'puzzle' of having a bunch of different yet idendical looking blocks over it). Also, since the 'abstract' areas are heavily layer 2 dependant, one might have to create little buffer zones to correctly 'place' them where needs be.
But yeah.
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Re: Final Tweaking of Inserted Levels
"changed?" More like "completely neutered"
If I was the one to do it, it would be a shell of what it currently is
If I was the one to do it, it would be a shell of what it currently is
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Re: Final Tweaking of Inserted Levels
Man, as long as it keeps the general aesthetics and progression, and the 'leaf ceiling' room, I don't mind. Heck, I'd probably find it hilarious if suddenly it's in the inner circle or something.
The obstacles and whatnot I don't care about, it's the general aesthetics of it that I really like.
The obstacles and whatnot I don't care about, it's the general aesthetics of it that I really like.
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Re: Final Tweaking of Inserted Levels
I just wanted to mention I find the vertical area considerably more unfair, difficult and badly designed then the others. I would just remove it completely to be quite honest.raocow wrote: Something I'd urge someone to do, though, is completely excise the first 'white' area, as it's not a fun room at all. What I would do is have the first forest part lead directly to what was the second 'white' area, the one where you swim in. That one would then point to the autumn area with the midpoint, and that one would lead directly to the vertical white/black alternating area.
Concerning the first 2 sections, i.e up to the midpoint, it's certainly doable toolless, but probably of much too high difficulty for this hacks target audience. (It's not very fun either. Then again, and I say this as someone who loves challenging hacks, Raocows stuff isn't fun most of the time, I'm sorry to say.)
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Re: Final Tweaking of Inserted Levels
Nah, the first 'white' section doesn't even offer anything at all, it could be totally excised.
I don't care much about keeping any of the design of the levels, to be honest! As long as the aesthetics are there. Brown forests, one with the leaves, one white room with the distorted music, one 'black/white alternating' with the discordant piano music.
Neutered or not, I'm totally okay with having them completely changed, as long as that stays the same.
Hell, if anything i'd be a nice surprise~
I don't care much about keeping any of the design of the levels, to be honest! As long as the aesthetics are there. Brown forests, one with the leaves, one white room with the distorted music, one 'black/white alternating' with the discordant piano music.
Neutered or not, I'm totally okay with having them completely changed, as long as that stays the same.
Hell, if anything i'd be a nice surprise~
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Re: Final Tweaking of Inserted Levels
yeah, let's make it harder and give that version to raocow for playing.
But seriously, I think the first section is doable, hard, but doable.
The first white room seems pretty mean and I didn't play further than that.
So what was that with just removing the first white area and it's k?
But seriously, I think the first section is doable, hard, but doable.
The first white room seems pretty mean and I didn't play further than that.
So what was that with just removing the first white area and it's k?
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Re: Final Tweaking of Inserted Levels
Well, my post goes into further details of what sort of thing that would entail.
That and although I really want to keep the design of it, the 'white/black' portion really DOES need a redesign.
That and although I really want to keep the design of it, the 'white/black' portion really DOES need a redesign.
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Re: Final Tweaking of Inserted Levels
I think you can keep the basic level design and make it a lot more fun/fair if you change around some enemies... at least until the leaf part. The leaf part could use some level design changes. I don't know, maybe I'll take a look at it and make it more/less awful, but I'm confident it can be adjusted to be fair while seemingly staying as it is.
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Re: Final Tweaking of Inserted Levels
there are some problems with AUS' level, at least in the version he posted in submission.
- In the area right before the goal you can jump over a wall pretty easily and fall into nothing
- If you jump on those layer 2 elevators while they rise up, you can fall through them.
- On the very last elevator, if you stand on the middle platform while it moves, you can not move for no apparent reason (probably because you lose normal ground contact because of the scrolling speed or something)
I don't know why wyatt didn't notice that, or maybe it didn't happen to him
- In the area right before the goal you can jump over a wall pretty easily and fall into nothing
- If you jump on those layer 2 elevators while they rise up, you can fall through them.
- On the very last elevator, if you stand on the middle platform while it moves, you can not move for no apparent reason (probably because you lose normal ground contact because of the scrolling speed or something)
I don't know why wyatt didn't notice that, or maybe it didn't happen to him
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Re: Final Tweaking of Inserted Levels
Future raocow: "So that was Yoshi's House! Time for the first actual level in the hub, wait what the hell? Further over there!? *spontaneous laughing*"raocow wrote:Heck, I'd probably find it hilarious if suddenly it's in the inner circle or something
EDIT:
What, really? You sure this is the final version? Hmm..*plays for himself* Hahaha, I have no idea why that happens...Wait, yeah I do. I got rid of the ceiling for that part..Oops. So that's fixable.- In the area right before the goal you can jump over a wall pretty easily and fall into nothing
P.S. My level is not inserted yet....Isn't that something for the inserter to tell me, or would the inserter fix it himself? :S
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Re: Final Tweaking of Inserted Levels
Resubmitting my level, everything should be fixed now. Still not sure how it's going to run on non-ZSNES emulators though.
Re: Final Tweaking of Inserted Levels
Not sure if this is the right place, but it is a place at least.
In the current baserom 2.2, in my level, lvl015, P.Key's Mansion, screen 0B has a Secondary Entrance (#0FD), that should not be there. It's not messing up anything in my level but it might, if someone's actually using that Secondary Entrance. Just mentioning it, so it doesn't bite anyone in the future.
Also, the palette looks awful on the new Eerie, Boo-Laser and Boo-Block sprites throughout the whole level. I played around a little, but I can't seem to find anything that looks good on them that doesn't in turn mess up Big Boo. Any ideas?
In the current baserom 2.2, in my level, lvl015, P.Key's Mansion, screen 0B has a Secondary Entrance (#0FD), that should not be there. It's not messing up anything in my level but it might, if someone's actually using that Secondary Entrance. Just mentioning it, so it doesn't bite anyone in the future.
Also, the palette looks awful on the new Eerie, Boo-Laser and Boo-Block sprites throughout the whole level. I played around a little, but I can't seem to find anything that looks good on them that doesn't in turn mess up Big Boo. Any ideas?
Re: Final Tweaking of Inserted Levels
I actually find it funny how in your level the cat eeries look like crazy clowns with that palette.
I really like that!
I really like that!
Re: Final Tweaking of Inserted Levels
I see where you are getting that image, but really, it's just some kind of a white and grey blob, isn't it?
Also, it doesn't really matter, as the Boo-Blocks and -Lasers are still pixelated like... pixels.
Re: Final Tweaking of Inserted Levels
I'm not entirely sure on if this suggestion has been made yet (I'm horrifically behind on development on this), but I strongly recommend that you use directional hurt blocks. A set of those are available on SMWC's Block section, though it's currently being remoderated. Some swimming around with the base ROM I played showed that a good number of levels had spike graphics that were obvious Muncher reskins. If a block doesn't look like it can hurt Demo from the sides, then ideally it shouldn't do so.
Re: Final Tweaking of Inserted Levels
After doing a little more swimming around with the most recent base, I would like to know who was the person(s) who ultimately approved of the levels The Deadly Ninja Assassin Squad and The Meaning of Sharp. AFAIC, both levels are large messes and in MOS's case, "tweaking" is an understatement; if anything, it needs a massive overhaul.
TDNAS
Edit regarding MOS is pending. I have other things to tend to.
TDNAS
Re: Final Tweaking of Inserted Levels
Yeah, they're ninjas. Ambushing is kind of the point. I did try to put 90% of the monty moles out of the way so the only way you'd actually get hurt by them is if you're rushing straight through everything. It's meant to be more visually intimidating than actually dangerous. The ones underfoot are low enough that you'll just kill them if they pop out on top of you and the ones on the roof generally pop out before the player jumps up there. The only way you actually get hit is if you rush.
After the midpoint, they are a bit more dangerous because you have a midpoint, and by that point, should be expecting it. You're meant to take your time. That first ninja chuck is your clue.
The testers didn't have much issue with it, since like I said, it's no issue if you take your time (like how I imagine someone would approach raiding a ninja village). I have no issue with someone removing a few of the more dangerous obstacles however, but it's been tested by enough people, that the majority of hack players should find it pretty fun as is.
You're refuting the premise of the level though. They're ninjas. The fun IS being ambushed by them. Looting a ninja village with animals dressed as ninjas popping up on all sides creates a silly yet immerse environment. If you don't find that sort of thing fun, I don't know what to say because I kinda do.
After the midpoint, they are a bit more dangerous because you have a midpoint, and by that point, should be expecting it. You're meant to take your time. That first ninja chuck is your clue.
The testers didn't have much issue with it, since like I said, it's no issue if you take your time (like how I imagine someone would approach raiding a ninja village). I have no issue with someone removing a few of the more dangerous obstacles however, but it's been tested by enough people, that the majority of hack players should find it pretty fun as is.
You're refuting the premise of the level though. They're ninjas. The fun IS being ambushed by them. Looting a ninja village with animals dressed as ninjas popping up on all sides creates a silly yet immerse environment. If you don't find that sort of thing fun, I don't know what to say because I kinda do.
Re: Final Tweaking of Inserted Levels
A majority of which you don't even know where they are until they jump out.Cup wrote:Yeah, they're ninjas. Ambushing is kind of the point. I did try to put 90% of the monty moles out of the way so the only way you'd actually get hurt by them is if you're rushing straight through everything.
And those that are "kinda-sorta" in the middle...? What about the Swoopers in general? How about those that you meet during the middle or end of a jump?It's meant to be more visually intimidating than actually dangerous. The ones underfoot are low enough that you'll just kill them if they pop out on top of you and the ones on the roof generally pop out before the player jumps up there. The only way you actually get hit is if you rush.
You're defending a level filled with blatant cheap hits/demos from ambushes? Yes, I clearly caught the point that they're ninjas and that they're associated with ambushing the player, but even then, the player should still be given a fighting chance so they don't get damaged or die to these surprise attacks.Cup wrote:After the midpoint, they are a bit more dangerous because you have a midpoint, and by that point, should be expecting it. You're meant to take your time. That first ninja chuck is your clue.
"Hey, if you take your time with Cave of Lost Pride", it's not THAT bad.
"Testers didn't have much issue with ASMT and SMWCP" either, and look what happened. There is as a reason why having a level torn inside out by multiple, multiple people is a good idea.The testers didn't have much issue with it, since like I said, it's no issue if you take your time (like how I imagine someone would approach raiding a ninja village). I have no issue with someone removing a few of the more dangerous obstacles however, but it's been tested by enough people, that the majority of hack players should find it pretty fun as is.
"If you go (further) into a level expecting unfair BS setups, it's not that bad."You're refuting the premise of the level though. They're ninjas. The fun IS being ambushed by them. Looting a ninja village with animals dressed as ninjas popping up on all sides creates a silly yet immerse environment. If you don't find that sort of thing fun, I don't know what to say because I kinda do.
I don't know about you, but my (and I'm sure several others feel the say) idea of "fun" doesn't include "getting hit by and dying to enemies that I didn't know were there until it was too late" in a video game where the player doesn't really have disposable health. Unless this level has disposable health (it doesn't) or is utilizing a mechanic that allows for such (ie: a SMB2, RPG, or Metroid-styled health systems), then you can't really get away with that. Speaking of health, the entire second half of the level has exactly ONE dependable (just in case you try using the midway tape as a defense) power-up, and that is right before the boss fight.
I honestly don't care if you find idea of cheap hits/deaths in longish, lopsided checkpoint, power-up barren level "fun"; and I doubt many others care either. You are designing this level to a romhack that will reach a wide audience of potential players, so you need to also think from the player's POV and them encountering things in this level for the first (few) time(s).
Re: Final Tweaking of Inserted Levels
Spoiler cause long. And gets into the heart of why I think a few levels in SMWCP were poorly received where as people found similar things in ASMT and the Vips as "charming and fun."
Re: Final Tweaking of Inserted Levels
Ideally, you could get it cut down to ~1200 at the very most. Trust me, it will help the ROM out a long way.
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Re: Final Tweaking of Inserted Levels
Ok here's some tweaking advice:
I really don't see a problem in filling the gap to the left of the chuck at the start. Just make it dipped a little bit so you're still surprised but you don't die. People will probably die
The level probably could benefit from having a checkpoint right at the village. I honestly don't particularly care for running back and forth even in this form, so it'd be nice if you somehow die you didn't have to go through the first part
The chuck under the pipe in the house with the pipe really should be moved. It honestly is bullshit. For tweaking purposes I'd either remove him or the middle platform one... I'd probably go for just flat out removing him cause I also think it would be better if the lower running guy and the upper baseball one were swapped.
That one swooper over that one jump probably could benefit from being moved to the right a couple spaces so he pops up when you land rather than mid-jump
Mostly aesthetical, but some of the bamboo could do with being spiky only from top/bottom blocks
That's... pretty much it I guess? Yeah, the rooms are annoying when you're running in through them a second time for another power-up, but rushing in those small areas really seems to be the only spot? I guess I didn't rush too much in the non-village areas, but aside form what's mentioned I didn't think much was too unfair (and in fact, the path to the final parrot coin is probably one you actually do want to run in as it makes everything easier [at least while small])
Anyway, you're both jerks.
Edit: I removed the last part I don't wanna poke at that
I really don't see a problem in filling the gap to the left of the chuck at the start. Just make it dipped a little bit so you're still surprised but you don't die. People will probably die
The level probably could benefit from having a checkpoint right at the village. I honestly don't particularly care for running back and forth even in this form, so it'd be nice if you somehow die you didn't have to go through the first part
The chuck under the pipe in the house with the pipe really should be moved. It honestly is bullshit. For tweaking purposes I'd either remove him or the middle platform one... I'd probably go for just flat out removing him cause I also think it would be better if the lower running guy and the upper baseball one were swapped.
That one swooper over that one jump probably could benefit from being moved to the right a couple spaces so he pops up when you land rather than mid-jump
Mostly aesthetical, but some of the bamboo could do with being spiky only from top/bottom blocks
That's... pretty much it I guess? Yeah, the rooms are annoying when you're running in through them a second time for another power-up, but rushing in those small areas really seems to be the only spot? I guess I didn't rush too much in the non-village areas, but aside form what's mentioned I didn't think much was too unfair (and in fact, the path to the final parrot coin is probably one you actually do want to run in as it makes everything easier [at least while small])
Anyway, you're both jerks.
Edit: I removed the last part I don't wanna poke at that
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Re: Final Tweaking of Inserted Levels
Wanted to drive home to limepie that I support all the changes argue mentioned and hope they happen, which as it so happens seems to coincide with the changes MrDeePay recommended in his last reply. It's apparent that the whole discussion was rather moot since we were both talking about the same kind of changes with different words and most points of disagreement were irrelevant. These changes do need to happen since this gimmick does tread a fine line, and even looking at it objectively as possible, I won't be able to point them out myself since it's impossible for me to test the level without foreknowledge.
And if any of the managers are willing, object optimization would also be pretty helpful. This level was the first time I used lunar magic, and was done mostly in 1.6 and 1.7. If rom space starts becoming an issue, this is a really good place to look. I apologize for the lack of optimization.
p.s. if anyone has a suggestion for a football replacement that fits to theme, bounces, and can be jumped on, I'll draw it. But theme should be priority.
I hope my response and argue's insult didn't discourage you from letting us know your issues with Meaning of Sharp, DeePay. The project needs the input and argue doesn't mean it. He's a great guy.
And if any of the managers are willing, object optimization would also be pretty helpful. This level was the first time I used lunar magic, and was done mostly in 1.6 and 1.7. If rom space starts becoming an issue, this is a really good place to look. I apologize for the lack of optimization.
p.s. if anyone has a suggestion for a football replacement that fits to theme, bounces, and can be jumped on, I'll draw it. But theme should be priority.
I hope my response and argue's insult didn't discourage you from letting us know your issues with Meaning of Sharp, DeePay. The project needs the input and argue doesn't mean it. He's a great guy.
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Re: Final Tweaking of Inserted Levels
Throwing..Knife? I dunno. Are knives usually for stabbing or slashing? If slashing, I suppose jumping on them makes sense. Although, them bouncing like footballs does not. Eh, why can't it just be a football but with a ninja-looking theme? Somehow? Yeah, that wasn't much help was it? Sorry.Cup wrote:p.s. if anyone has a suggestion for a football replacement that fits to theme, bounces, and can be jumped on, I'll draw it. But theme should be priority.
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Re: Final Tweaking of Inserted Levels
I don't see any problem with the footballs being throwing stars. The baseballs are tiny, the footballs are huge. There's not really any way to confuse the two and I don't even think they pop up at the same time?
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