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Level Finalization/QA List (Tweaking of Inserted Levels)

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Re: Final Tweaking of Inserted Levels

Post by Paralars »

dragon coins are independent from treasure chests, you don't need any to open it.
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Re: Final Tweaking of Inserted Levels

Post by raocow »

Cmbheadquarters wrote:Guys, for the last time Raocows "further over there" NEEDS to be changed. If not, SMWCentral users (the ones raocow complained about in his 9th door contest) will ragezorz on A2MT because of THAT level. IT CAN'T BE DONE WITHOUT SAVES. Optional or not, rupture in reality was optional, yet do you remember the lolrage we got from that? It R-heea-ly needs to be changed... :x
I'm agreeing with this, but I don't trust myself in being able to make it 'better', so I do hope someome dares take the mantle.

Something I'd urge someone to do, though, is completely excise the first 'white' area, as it's not a fun room at all. What I would do is have the first forest part lead directly to what was the second 'white' area, the one where you swim in. That one would then point to the autumn area with the midpoint, and that one would lead directly to the vertical white/black alternating area.

Of course, doing this would require the 'fixer' to find a new location for one parrot coin (they can be 'easier' to get than most level since the level itself is very difficult) and a new location for the pipe that leads to the chest (and its 'puzzle' of having a bunch of different yet idendical looking blocks over it). Also, since the 'abstract' areas are heavily layer 2 dependant, one might have to create little buffer zones to correctly 'place' them where needs be.

But yeah.
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Re: Final Tweaking of Inserted Levels

Post by Argumentable »

"changed?" More like "completely neutered"

If I was the one to do it, it would be a shell of what it currently is
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Re: Final Tweaking of Inserted Levels

Post by raocow »

Man, as long as it keeps the general aesthetics and progression, and the 'leaf ceiling' room, I don't mind. Heck, I'd probably find it hilarious if suddenly it's in the inner circle or something.

The obstacles and whatnot I don't care about, it's the general aesthetics of it that I really like.
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Re: Final Tweaking of Inserted Levels

Post by cozyduck »

raocow wrote: Something I'd urge someone to do, though, is completely excise the first 'white' area, as it's not a fun room at all. What I would do is have the first forest part lead directly to what was the second 'white' area, the one where you swim in. That one would then point to the autumn area with the midpoint, and that one would lead directly to the vertical white/black alternating area.
I just wanted to mention I find the vertical area considerably more unfair, difficult and badly designed then the others. I would just remove it completely to be quite honest.

Concerning the first 2 sections, i.e up to the midpoint, it's certainly doable toolless, but probably of much too high difficulty for this hacks target audience. (It's not very fun either. Then again, and I say this as someone who loves challenging hacks, Raocows stuff isn't fun most of the time, I'm sorry to say.)
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Re: Final Tweaking of Inserted Levels

Post by raocow »

Nah, the first 'white' section doesn't even offer anything at all, it could be totally excised.

I don't care much about keeping any of the design of the levels, to be honest! As long as the aesthetics are there. Brown forests, one with the leaves, one white room with the distorted music, one 'black/white alternating' with the discordant piano music.

Neutered or not, I'm totally okay with having them completely changed, as long as that stays the same.

Hell, if anything i'd be a nice surprise~
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Re: Final Tweaking of Inserted Levels

Post by Paralars »

yeah, let's make it harder and give that version to raocow for playing.

But seriously, I think the first section is doable, hard, but doable.
The first white room seems pretty mean and I didn't play further than that.
So what was that with just removing the first white area and it's k?
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Re: Final Tweaking of Inserted Levels

Post by raocow »

Well, my post goes into further details of what sort of thing that would entail.

That and although I really want to keep the design of it, the 'white/black' portion really DOES need a redesign.
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Re: Final Tweaking of Inserted Levels

Post by Argumentable »

I think you can keep the basic level design and make it a lot more fun/fair if you change around some enemies... at least until the leaf part. The leaf part could use some level design changes. I don't know, maybe I'll take a look at it and make it more/less awful, but I'm confident it can be adjusted to be fair while seemingly staying as it is.
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Re: Final Tweaking of Inserted Levels

Post by Paralars »

there are some problems with AUS' level, at least in the version he posted in submission.
- In the area right before the goal you can jump over a wall pretty easily and fall into nothing
- If you jump on those layer 2 elevators while they rise up, you can fall through them.
- On the very last elevator, if you stand on the middle platform while it moves, you can not move for no apparent reason (probably because you lose normal ground contact because of the scrolling speed or something)
I don't know why wyatt didn't notice that, or maybe it didn't happen to him :|
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Re: Final Tweaking of Inserted Levels

Post by AUS »

raocow wrote:Heck, I'd probably find it hilarious if suddenly it's in the inner circle or something
Future raocow: "So that was Yoshi's House! Time for the first actual level in the hub, wait what the hell? Further over there!? *spontaneous laughing*"
EDIT:
- In the area right before the goal you can jump over a wall pretty easily and fall into nothing
What, really? You sure this is the final version? Hmm..*plays for himself* Hahaha, I have no idea why that happens...Wait, yeah I do. I got rid of the ceiling for that part..Oops. So that's fixable. :lol:
P.S. My level is not inserted yet....Isn't that something for the inserter to tell me, or would the inserter fix it himself? :S
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Re: Final Tweaking of Inserted Levels

Post by Terry von Feleday »

Resubmitting my level, everything should be fixed now. Still not sure how it's going to run on non-ZSNES emulators though.
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Re: Final Tweaking of Inserted Levels

Post by 7TC7 »

Not sure if this is the right place, but it is a place at least.

In the current baserom 2.2, in my level, lvl015, P.Key's Mansion, screen 0B has a Secondary Entrance (#0FD), that should not be there. It's not messing up anything in my level but it might, if someone's actually using that Secondary Entrance. Just mentioning it, so it doesn't bite anyone in the future.

Also, the palette looks awful on the new Eerie, Boo-Laser and Boo-Block sprites throughout the whole level. I played around a little, but I can't seem to find anything that looks good on them that doesn't in turn mess up Big Boo. Any ideas?
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Re: Final Tweaking of Inserted Levels

Post by Paralars »

I actually find it funny how in your level the cat eeries look like crazy clowns with that palette.
I really like that!
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Re: Final Tweaking of Inserted Levels

Post by 7TC7 »

I see where you are getting that image, but really, it's just some kind of a white and grey blob, isn't it?
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Also, it doesn't really matter, as the Boo-Blocks and -Lasers are still pixelated like... pixels.
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Re: Final Tweaking of Inserted Levels

Post by MrDeePay »

I'm not entirely sure on if this suggestion has been made yet (I'm horrifically behind on development on this), but I strongly recommend that you use directional hurt blocks. A set of those are available on SMWC's Block section, though it's currently being remoderated. Some swimming around with the base ROM I played showed that a good number of levels had spike graphics that were obvious Muncher reskins. If a block doesn't look like it can hurt Demo from the sides, then ideally it shouldn't do so.
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Re: Final Tweaking of Inserted Levels

Post by MrDeePay »

After doing a little more swimming around with the most recent base, I would like to know who was the person(s) who ultimately approved of the levels The Deadly Ninja Assassin Squad and The Meaning of Sharp. AFAIC, both levels are large messes and in MOS's case, "tweaking" is an understatement; if anything, it needs a massive overhaul.

TDNAS
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Ambushed by a Chuck hidden in the ground that I didn't see at all.

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The Swoopers are used in an ambush fashion as well. There's nothing that's really outright wrong with this setup, but later on...

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I jumped on a sharp object and took no damage whatsoever.

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The Montys used are done in quite possibly the worst fashion I've ever seen in a serious effort in a hack. Yes, I'd even go as far to say that they're even worst than their implementation of the Montys in Cave of Lost Pride (SMWCP). At least in THAT level there was a small (though not very good) hint that a Monty was burrowed there. HERE, they appear from anything, be it a roof, the ground, or even out of thin air; all without a single hint of their location.

This part can change depending on where on the OW this level appears in (Montys by default take longer to jump out of the ground if the level is on the YI submap), but the fact that they take their time to attack- meaning its a lot easier to get hit by these guys you don't know are there- doesn't help matters either.

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Supporting material for the gripes about the Montys and Swoopers.

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React or get hurt. When you exit the pipe, if you're not holding left after you bonk the top chuck, you'll be flung right into the middle Chuck's path. Combine that with the fact that power-ups are vital for this segment and you'll not only take a cheap hit, but an annoying backtracking adventure just so you can get powered up again.

Did I mention that the level really could use an additional checkpoint at the start of the village segment?

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Laughably unguarded treasure chest that's also not really well-hidden to compensate. The Parrot (?) Coins aren't all that difficult to find either.

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...There's the checkpoint?
Said checkpoint is also lopsided, not unlike Cave of Lost Pride's.

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Borderline Big Demo Discrimination

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Bullshit. There's no way you can't expect anyone on their first (few) tries not to get damaged during this jump, especially if they're big.

ImageAdditional midpoint and another powerup could go here, allowing the player to have three hits before biting it.

As for the boss, it feels like its phases are done in reverse order. The first phase is clearly much more difficult than the second "Disco" + Elite Koopa inspired second.
Edit regarding MOS is pending. I have other things to tend to.
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Re: Final Tweaking of Inserted Levels

Post by Cup »

Yeah, they're ninjas. Ambushing is kind of the point. I did try to put 90% of the monty moles out of the way so the only way you'd actually get hurt by them is if you're rushing straight through everything. It's meant to be more visually intimidating than actually dangerous. The ones underfoot are low enough that you'll just kill them if they pop out on top of you and the ones on the roof generally pop out before the player jumps up there. The only way you actually get hit is if you rush.

After the midpoint, they are a bit more dangerous because you have a midpoint, and by that point, should be expecting it. You're meant to take your time. That first ninja chuck is your clue.

The testers didn't have much issue with it, since like I said, it's no issue if you take your time (like how I imagine someone would approach raiding a ninja village). I have no issue with someone removing a few of the more dangerous obstacles however, but it's been tested by enough people, that the majority of hack players should find it pretty fun as is.

You're refuting the premise of the level though. They're ninjas. The fun IS being ambushed by them. Looting a ninja village with animals dressed as ninjas popping up on all sides creates a silly yet immerse environment. If you don't find that sort of thing fun, I don't know what to say because I kinda do.
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Re: Final Tweaking of Inserted Levels

Post by MrDeePay »

Cup wrote:Yeah, they're ninjas. Ambushing is kind of the point. I did try to put 90% of the monty moles out of the way so the only way you'd actually get hurt by them is if you're rushing straight through everything.
A majority of which you don't even know where they are until they jump out.
It's meant to be more visually intimidating than actually dangerous. The ones underfoot are low enough that you'll just kill them if they pop out on top of you and the ones on the roof generally pop out before the player jumps up there. The only way you actually get hit is if you rush.
And those that are "kinda-sorta" in the middle...? What about the Swoopers in general? How about those that you meet during the middle or end of a jump?
Cup wrote:After the midpoint, they are a bit more dangerous because you have a midpoint, and by that point, should be expecting it. You're meant to take your time. That first ninja chuck is your clue.
You're defending a level filled with blatant cheap hits/demos from ambushes? Yes, I clearly caught the point that they're ninjas and that they're associated with ambushing the player, but even then, the player should still be given a fighting chance so they don't get damaged or die to these surprise attacks.

"Hey, if you take your time with Cave of Lost Pride", it's not THAT bad.
The testers didn't have much issue with it, since like I said, it's no issue if you take your time (like how I imagine someone would approach raiding a ninja village). I have no issue with someone removing a few of the more dangerous obstacles however, but it's been tested by enough people, that the majority of hack players should find it pretty fun as is.
"Testers didn't have much issue with ASMT and SMWCP" either, and look what happened. There is as a reason why having a level torn inside out by multiple, multiple people is a good idea.
You're refuting the premise of the level though. They're ninjas. The fun IS being ambushed by them. Looting a ninja village with animals dressed as ninjas popping up on all sides creates a silly yet immerse environment. If you don't find that sort of thing fun, I don't know what to say because I kinda do.
"If you go (further) into a level expecting unfair BS setups, it's not that bad."

I don't know about you, but my (and I'm sure several others feel the say) idea of "fun" doesn't include "getting hit by and dying to enemies that I didn't know were there until it was too late" in a video game where the player doesn't really have disposable health. Unless this level has disposable health (it doesn't) or is utilizing a mechanic that allows for such (ie: a SMB2, RPG, or Metroid-styled health systems), then you can't really get away with that. Speaking of health, the entire second half of the level has exactly ONE dependable (just in case you try using the midway tape as a defense) power-up, and that is right before the boss fight.

I honestly don't care if you find idea of cheap hits/deaths in longish, lopsided checkpoint, power-up barren level "fun"; and I doubt many others care either. You are designing this level to a romhack that will reach a wide audience of potential players, so you need to also think from the player's POV and them encountering things in this level for the first (few) time(s).
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Re: Final Tweaking of Inserted Levels

Post by Cup »

Spoiler cause long. And gets into the heart of why I think a few levels in SMWCP were poorly received where as people found similar things in ASMT and the Vips as "charming and fun."
The difference between the obstacles in this level and the moles in Cave of Lost Pride is the context. Context means everything. I've noticed you tend to ignore this quite often in your critics of levels in LP threads and other such comments where you point out the hypocrisy of raocow's fans. The reason why so many levels you lampoon are often well received, while many levels in SMWCP were criticized for containing similar elements, is purely the context. It makes all the difference.

In Cave of Lost Pride, there was no real gimmick. You are in a dark cave and you do stuff. There was no cohesion. The nature of each obstacle had nothing to do with the next. This is why the level felt draining, boring, and overall unpleasant. The invisible moles had no reason to be there, let alone be invisible. The P-Switch fetching had no context. It was just a long boring maze, with an uninspired mega mole leading section. The difficulty and length WEREN'T the issue. How boring it was was. The only clever thing in the whole level was the Tetris elevator (and that was pretty clever, it just had nothing to do with the level).

What makes what you consider "bullshit" gameplay not only acceptable here but even fun is that the entire level is designed with "getting ambushed by ninjas" in mind. Every single obstacle. Every single enemy. The gfx. The music. The overriding gameplay. It all supports getting ambushed by ninjas. THAT's what the level is about. Even before you enter the level, the level is called "Deadly ninja assassin squad." It's a silly over the top name that tells you you are going to be dealing with a deadly ninja assassin squad, and it's probably going to be silly. What does "Cave of Lost Pride" mean? The name is much more vague, and like the gimmick, gets lost in translation. when you first enter the ninja level, you're in an enclosed bamboo forest with all sorts of places for ninjas to hide. Then you get a text box that again warns you of deadly ninja assassins. Then in the first 20 seconds of the level you get ambushed by a ninja. He's placed in a why that's easy to recover from, and it's silly the way he pokes his head out. On the off chance you die, you only have to replay maybe ten seconds to get back there. That's how you learn of the gimmick. You don't need a tutorial or to have it spelled out (which is it anyway in the text box and title). You know from the get go what the level is about, unlike Cave of Lost Pride, where you simply randomly encounter an invisible mole deep into the level with no reason to be there.

Now you didn't laugh or enjoy it when the silly lumbering chuck ninja popped his head out of the ground as was intended. You thought it was bullshit. That's fine. You probably won't enjoy the level since that very moment was designed to introduce the player to the concept that would run the gameplay of the level from that moment on. From what I can tell there are two ways to design a level. You can either try to please the greatest number of people, which normally means a lot of dumbing down and limits risk taking, or you can make something you enjoy and hope others do as well. I tend to be a proponent of the latter since I am fairly confident I have decent taste and am representative of the target audience (speaking of taste and while I have your attention, I'd still like to see the level you were working on for this hack make it into the game. I thought it looked very fun. Since this is months later, I encourage you to pick it up again if you have the time). And this level was not made by me alone. I got a LOT of suggestions and feedback which I was glad to implement, and ultimately made what I consider to be a really fun level due to their help. There has been debate. People have brought up issue with the moles, and I listened very closely, since I can't objectively judge the difficulty without being blind. I am in no way saying it's perfect. If there are spots you think should have one more block of leeway, or a sprite removed, that could really be the difference between something being fun or being overly tedious. I'd love it if limepie would make changes accordingly, but you are the first person to completely dismiss the premise. You probably won't be the last, but you also probably won't be the majority. The swoops moles and chucks are not impossible to deal with, you just need accept the idea that you're in a ninja village and a ninja could be hiding anywhere (because he's a ninja. That's what they do). It doesn't mean you need to stop every few steps and look around (the level is much more forgiving than that), you just need to take your time and react. The powerups are unlimited in the village section, you can easily double up on a flower or cape just by exiting and reentering and with no time limit (there's supposed to be no time limit), you can do this as much as you want which is considerably more forgiving than just dying. You're supposed to take your time and explore this section.

And you seem to take issue with odd things. You can jump on the gfx swaps of footballs because they're footballs. Yeah, they look sharp, but his is a romhack. None of us here are coding the game from scratch and we shouldn't pretend we are. That's not what the player wants, nor expects when they patch a rom. You see a chuck kick an obvious ninja themed gfx swap of a football, and yeah, it acts like a football. The player would probably feel more betrayed if they couldn't actually jump on it, since most people playing this hack will have already encountered football chucks. The chest also is simply meant as a reward for mastering the village. A break of pace and a pat on the back for a job well done, since they probably had to back track a few times for powerups. Though chests are a reward for exploring in other levels, the nature of the village sections requires you to explore quite a bit just to find all the powerups you need to advance. Having the player search for a chest on top of that and on top of the dragon coins (which are easy to find because the gameplay of the level requires such a thorough search itself) is a bit much, so in this level it's role is as a reward. This hack treats each level as its own event so small things like this can better suit the gameplay of that level.

And yeah, even after writing all of this, I know your experience with the level will not change. You didn't have fun. That's a shame, and I'm disappointed as the designer, but that also happens. And so far you make up the entirety of people with such complaints. If more and more people have such strong issues with the level as we get further along and branch out for things like beta testing, it might be a good idea to completely redesign parts or exercise the level from the hack completely, but so far, the response has been quite positive. Minor issues like a mole here, swoop there, or spike too close to the ceiling could always use ironing out, and I'd very much like them too be looked into, but changing the nature of the level is probably a bad idea since most have said THAT very nature is what makes the level fun. Most people who I've heard feedback from have even specifically pointed out the ninja moles as something they adored.
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Re: Final Tweaking of Inserted Levels

Post by MrDeePay »

Cup wrote:Spoiler cause long. And gets into the heart of why I think a few levels in SMWCP were poorly received where as people found similar things in ASMT and the Vips as "charming and fun."

The difference between the obstacles in this level and the moles in Cave of Lost Pride is the context. Context means everything. I've noticed you tend to ignore this quite often in your critics of levels in LP threads and other such comments where you point out the hypocrisy of raocow's fans. The reason why so many levels you lampoon are often well received, while many levels in SMWCP were criticized for containing similar elements, is purely the context. It makes all the difference.
That is a different subject matter best left for another time and try not to make this discussion more personal than it needs to be.
As for context, we'll tackle that later.
In Cave of Lost Pride, there was no real gimmick. You are in...
*snip*
...deep into the level with no reason to be there.
I don't think you're quite getting what I'm saying. I used CLP as an example since the two levels both share similar flaws; dickish enemy placement (ambush-styled enemies/obstacles, react or take damage on sublevel entry)item fetch-quest with easy potential for getting annoying quick, lopsided checkpoint. I believe the end-of-jump enemy encounter(s) you have is/are exclusive to your level. Of course, I feel that DNAS is still the better lever overall- the former needed a lot of things to be revamped completely compared to the latter shifting some things around and adding more let for the player.

While I think your level is "bad", I don't believe that it's "horrible".
Now you didn't laugh or enjoy it when the silly lumbering chuck ninja popped his head out of the ground as was intended. You thought it was bullshit. That's fine. You probably won't enjoy the level since that very moment was designed to introduce the player to the concept that would run the gameplay of the level from that moment on.
Solution: Put solid (safe) ground in place of that pit. Punishing the player with instant death for a setup that had no idea would come at them like it. It's somewhat like having an invisible coin block in the common spots of a jump over a pit. If you want to utilize the aspect of ambushing the player, you're going to also have to keep it fair for the player.
From what I can tell there are two ways to design a level. You can either try to please the greatest number of people, which normally means a lot of dumbing down and limits risk taking, or you can make something you enjoy and hope others do as well. I tend to be a proponent of the latter since I am fairly confident I have decent taste and am representative of the target audience
Or you can do both, make something you can enjoy that will also be enjoyed by a large number of potential. Of course "The raocow Factor" (not my term) can easily come into play here and that can bring its own mess into the fray.
(speaking of taste and while I have your attention, I'd still like to see the level you were working on for this hack make it into the game. I thought it looked very fun. Since this is months later, I encourage you to pick it up again if you have the time).
I gave up my level back in March/April and I acidentally deleted the folder the WIP was in last month when I was cleaning out my folders. I could redo the level from scratch if I had the mood and had another "shot" at this collab. Time is no issue for me. But doing a level for A2MT is not a priority for me at the moment, especially when there's that lingering chance that I may need to play "Emergency Back-up" and take care of any other levels that may be dropped.
And this level was not made by me alone. I got a LOT of suggestions and feedback which I was glad to implement, and ultimately made what I consider to be a really fun level due to their help. There has been debate. People have brought up issue with the moles, and I listened very closely, since I can't objectively judge the difficulty without being blind. I am in no way saying it's perfect. If there are spots you think should have one more block of leeway, or a sprite removed, that could really be the difference between something being fun or being overly tedious. I'd love it if limepie would make changes accordingly, but you are the first person to completely dismiss the premise.
The issue with the premise is that you implemented them in an unfair manner in the confines of the game itself (which links to the disposable). To utilize the ambush concept in a more fair manner, you'll need to give the player a chance to react and escape unharmed accordingly. That Chuck at the start? Fill up that pit to the right of it. The Swooper in the second half that's encountered mid-jump? Move it 2-4 tiles to the right. Those Monty Moles? Some sort of (subtle) visual indicator that they're there. That top Chuck in the house with the Feather? Replace him with an enemy that won't bounce Demo to the sides when she bonks him (or remove him completely). etc.
You probably won't be the last, but you also probably won't be the majority.
Quantity isn't everything.
The swoops moles and chucks are not impossible to deal with, you just need accept the idea that you're in a ninja village and a ninja could be hiding anywhere (because he's a ninja. That's what they do). It doesn't mean you need to stop every few steps and look around (the level is much more forgiving than that), you just need to take your time and react.
On average, the amount of time you have to react is between "Very little" to "You're kidding, right?"
And you seem to take issue with odd things. You can jump on the gfx swaps of footballs because they're footballs. Yeah, they look sharp, but his is a romhack. None of us here are coding the game from scratch and we shouldn't pretend we are. That's not what the player wants, nor expects when they patch a rom. You see a chuck kick an obvious ninja themed gfx swap of a football, and yeah, it acts like a football. The player would probably feel more betrayed if they couldn't actually jump on it, since most people playing this hack will have already encountered football chucks.
The football reskin is a large shuriken that somehow is safe to touch, but earlier and later in the level Chucks use smaller ones, which are harmful tot he touch. (similar example: Anikiti's earlier hacks using a Poison Mushroom as a football replacement.) It's nothing like OMFG A BLUEBERRY WTF IS THIS TRASH, but I'm merely asking for some consistency. Surely you can find some graphic that still fits in the confines of the level that looks like it's safe.

That and sharp objects usually aren't safe to touch in SMW.
And yeah, even after writing all of this, I know your experience with the level will not change. You didn't have fun. That's a shame, and I'm disappointed as the designer, but that also happens. And so far you make up the entirety of people with such complaints. If more and more people have such strong issues with the level as we get further along and branch out for things like beta testing, it might be a good idea to completely redesign parts or exercise the level from the hack completely, but so far, the response has been quite positive.
Again, quantity isn't everything.
Minor issues like a mole here, swoop there, or spike too close to the ceiling could always use ironing out, and I'd very much like them too be looked into, but changing the nature of the level is probably a bad idea since most have said THAT very nature is what makes the level fun. Most people who I've heard feedback from have even specifically pointed out the ninja moles as something they adored.
See the point before I said "Quantity isn't everything" the first time.
I forgot to bring this up initially, but this is more on the technical side of everything. The level is badly optimized. Just looking at level 131 alone in LM shows that you used 6191 objects for the level. This is due to you placing the bamboo sticks mostly individually, which eats up a ton of space. I have no idea what version of Lunar Magic you did this level in, but the most recent version (1.9) definitely allows you to highlight multiple tiles at once, place them down and stretch them out however which way you please, which in turns allows you to largely maintain the exact visual appeal of the level while dramatically cutting down on how much space the level is using.

Ideally, you could get it cut down to ~1200 at the very most. Trust me, it will help the ROM out a long way.
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Re: Final Tweaking of Inserted Levels

Post by Argumentable »

Ok here's some tweaking advice:

I really don't see a problem in filling the gap to the left of the chuck at the start. Just make it dipped a little bit so you're still surprised but you don't die. People will probably die

The level probably could benefit from having a checkpoint right at the village. I honestly don't particularly care for running back and forth even in this form, so it'd be nice if you somehow die you didn't have to go through the first part

The chuck under the pipe in the house with the pipe really should be moved. It honestly is bullshit. For tweaking purposes I'd either remove him or the middle platform one... I'd probably go for just flat out removing him cause I also think it would be better if the lower running guy and the upper baseball one were swapped.

That one swooper over that one jump probably could benefit from being moved to the right a couple spaces so he pops up when you land rather than mid-jump

Mostly aesthetical, but some of the bamboo could do with being spiky only from top/bottom blocks

That's... pretty much it I guess? Yeah, the rooms are annoying when you're running in through them a second time for another power-up, but rushing in those small areas really seems to be the only spot? I guess I didn't rush too much in the non-village areas, but aside form what's mentioned I didn't think much was too unfair (and in fact, the path to the final parrot coin is probably one you actually do want to run in as it makes everything easier [at least while small])

Anyway, you're both jerks.

Edit: I removed the last part I don't wanna poke at that
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Re: Final Tweaking of Inserted Levels

Post by Cup »

Wanted to drive home to limepie that I support all the changes argue mentioned and hope they happen, which as it so happens seems to coincide with the changes MrDeePay recommended in his last reply. It's apparent that the whole discussion was rather moot since we were both talking about the same kind of changes with different words and most points of disagreement were irrelevant. These changes do need to happen since this gimmick does tread a fine line, and even looking at it objectively as possible, I won't be able to point them out myself since it's impossible for me to test the level without foreknowledge.

And if any of the managers are willing, object optimization would also be pretty helpful. This level was the first time I used lunar magic, and was done mostly in 1.6 and 1.7. If rom space starts becoming an issue, this is a really good place to look. I apologize for the lack of optimization.

p.s. if anyone has a suggestion for a football replacement that fits to theme, bounces, and can be jumped on, I'll draw it. But theme should be priority.

I hope my response and argue's insult didn't discourage you from letting us know your issues with Meaning of Sharp, DeePay. The project needs the input and argue doesn't mean it. He's a great guy.
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Re: Final Tweaking of Inserted Levels

Post by AUS »

Cup wrote:p.s. if anyone has a suggestion for a football replacement that fits to theme, bounces, and can be jumped on, I'll draw it. But theme should be priority.
Throwing..Knife? I dunno. Are knives usually for stabbing or slashing? If slashing, I suppose jumping on them makes sense. Although, them bouncing like footballs does not. Eh, why can't it just be a football but with a ninja-looking theme? Somehow? Yeah, that wasn't much help was it? :? Sorry. :P
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Re: Final Tweaking of Inserted Levels

Post by Argumentable »

I don't see any problem with the footballs being throwing stars. The baseballs are tiny, the footballs are huge. There's not really any way to confuse the two and I don't even think they pop up at the same time?
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