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Level Clearing

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Re: Level Clearing

Post by raocow »

FoB just really doesn't like vanilla graphics which is why I have to veto this, especially if you were cleared about that beforehand.

Again, FoB, I said before plainly, black letters on white page, that vanilla graphics are okay to have.
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Re: Level Clearing

Post by flameofdoubt »

Septentrion Pleiades et. al.:
Fair enough on the graphics point, keep to vanilla (for one thing that makes the switch to winterised graphics simpler because you just need a palette change and maybe some extra background objects). All I can ask is for the aesthetics, i.e. the shape of landmasses to look interesting. That is, try to make the ground and where it is and how it flows, interesting, rather than having interesting designs on it. That's why I said to remove the carvings; not so much that they look bad, but that it lets you avoid making the level itself interesting, in sort of the same way just changing the graphics but not the aesthetics would hide a dull level (see it comes full circle and everyone gets to learn something valuable). That said of course removing them isn't mandatory, just a suggestion to help you focus on making the landmasses interesting.

About designing a level that's different for ice, think of things that freezing changes. A lake becomes a skating rink, a waterfall becomes a wall, a tree with standable-on branches suddenly is bare, removing a platform, spikes might be covered with snow to allow passage, that kind of thing. If you can come up with a level that you have to take different routes through for different seasons, that would make for a really interesting level. And remember, the more sneaky and ingenious the route you have to take, the cleverer the player will feel for having found it.

About easier top access, the slopes aren't as bad as I make out, it's just having to do several of them without any failure. In other mario levels you'd be punished with death for falling down a pit, but somehow falling to the ground is kind of more embarrassing and disappointing because you have to take the whole way around rather than just starting from the beginning. it just gets a bit frustrating that you have to go from one side of the level to the other to come back again. I would recommend having you travel from one side to the other, then have the level change, and now you have to get back but in different weather. If you can come up with more than two seasons/weather changes, so that they have to go back again (though ideally further) a third time, then it could make for a really clever and interesting level (this seems like it would have the same problem of having to go somewhere to come back again, but because the weather has changed on each pass, the player will feel like they've progressed, so I don't think it'll be anywhere like as frustrating).

agie777: That changes things a lot. I'm not entirely comfortable calling the last section a reference because it's a carbon copy. I'd prefer if there was some sting or surprise or unexpected change right before the goal. Other than that though, consider my comments retracted and your level double-cleared.
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Re: Level Clearing

Post by Paralars »

You can find the penguin graphics in GFX33.bin in any a2mt rom.
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Re: Level Clearing

Post by Septentrion Pleiades »

I'm quite surprised that you want to make it more complicated by adding another level. The only way I can think of is to use a muncher switch barrier or on/off button. You do know there is already three full sized levels in my level? You haven't even mentioned, as far as I can infer, if you have made it to the third part.
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Re: Level Clearing

Post by flameofdoubt »

Septentrion Pleiades: I adore the reset room. That is a stroke of genius. I really like the puzzles, especially in the ghost house. The last puzzle, where if you use the p-switch before jumping over the wall, you have to reset, is too much of a jerk move. There's no indication whatsoever that that could happen, so no way to plan or react. Either put in coins that will become blocks so that it's the player's fault for not checking/realising, or take those blocks out.

Other than that, you're cleared, and I'm sorry I didn't initially give your level the chance it clearly deserved.
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Re: Level Clearing

Post by Septentrion Pleiades »

Alright, but does most of what you said in your legions of words still needed? I think a lot of those aspects add to the level, but I do agree with some of your suggestions.
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Re: Level Clearing

Post by flameofdoubt »

I think the ground layout of the whole area to the left of where you start could be improved upon, since most of it seems to be on a single line, with the occasional break so that enemies can mess you up if you mistime a jump. However the quality of the rest of the level, and the relative quickness with which you can get through that first area once you figure out what you're doing, mitigates the need to change it. So the level would benefit, but it's already of a high enough standard to pass clearing.
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Re: Level Clearing

Post by Cmbheadquarters »

FLAMEOFDOUBT

thanks for the review, man. did everything, here it is (the thwomp face falling is sprite c5, chest it will appear when inserted. im off to bed see ya! - cmb http://bin.smwcentral.net/u/15352/024%2BAir%2BArena.ips
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Re: Level Clearing

Post by flameofdoubt »

cmbheadquarters: The new boss 'form' is fantastic, but there's a slight problem:
If you mess up then when you get to the top there's no one there, and there's no way to exit the level. I would recommend either making failure deadly, like maybe there's rising lava or all of the blocks start to fall (i'm aware having falling objects is pretty much not doable, even though it would be the ideal, but it's that sort of thing I'm talking about), or have it so that the robot escapes, 'heals', then returns, so you have to succeed in catching him to finish him off.

A slight aside, but it would also make sense to just have some kind of sprite or object flash largely in the foreground that says "Chase him down!" or a flashing arrow. Something to give the impression you need to keep up with him. Rubber-band gameplay in modern videogames has led people to assume that they can go at whatever speed they want (as long as there's not a timer) and that all the npcs and enemies in games will wait for them to do whatever screwing around they want.

The boss music will do, but I still think it's not the ideal. Partly because that music is also used in a boss fight with a ninja (though reusing slots is if anything a good thing), and partly because you can kind of tell it fits the ninja boss better. If there's no room or no boss music that fits the airy flutey sounds of the main level, then just stick with this and it'll be fine, but I think if we have the option, we should try to use something a bit more personal to the level.

Another slight problem I have is that the boss is kind of a giant space flea. Despite being a cool and fun boss, he doesn't seem to really fit his surroundings, or have much reason for being there, partly because there's no foreshadowing I suppose. As it stands, the boss is great, so there's no real need to change it. However, if you're willing, I would recommend seeing if you can foreshadow the boss a little (ideally without messageboxes, because I think they would clash with the level atmosphere), maybe having him be a necessary stepping stone to reach the next bit of land, but when you jump on him he gets angry, possibly chasing you through the level and dropping enemies at the no-ceiling'd sections. Another, but not mutually exclusive option, would be to change the sprite a little. It looks good, but it doesn't seem to really fit the natural rocky aesthetic the rest of the level has. If he was a wind spirit of some kind like a cloud or a tornado it might make more sense.

One thing to note is that if you do foreshadow the boss, one cool idea might be to have him look like a cloud or one of the square rock blocks, but slightly discoloured, and when you jump on him he wakes up and gets angry, revealing himself to have eyes and some kind of supportive wind around him, then fly up into the air and appear later.

I would like to stress again that this is all optional, but the way the boss currently is, where you have to chase him down and kill him to win the level, would only really make sense if the boss is the objective throughout the level. The player would technically be perfectly fine with him surviving and going away if it meant he could complete the level. Maybe make laying the final hit on the boss an optional secret exit or allow access to some extra goodies, and that if you fail and he escapes the top of the screen, then you only win regularly.

Having said all that, really well done on the alterations, and the original level of course. This is going to be a really solid and great addition to the game.
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Re: Level Clearing

Post by shdwdrgnix »

There, got some better fitting music, fixed some cheap hits and ported everything to the baserom.

Attachement uploading doesn't like me so here's the smwc file bin link.
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Re: Level Clearing

Post by flameofdoubt »

shdwdrgnix: The level looks good.
The timer needs to be removed in the room below the midpoint.
To actually create the block under the door you have to use a glitch, which we don't allow; make it possible to access a second p-switch and that'll be fine.
The palette of the eeries is wrong in the autoscroll area, and the noteblocks glitch up because of the wrong gfx files.
The palette of the HUD is off in most areas.
It would be nice if the messagebox about how to use the p-switch could be more humourous, but I understand that you have to convey information with a limited character count.
Overall the level suffers from some design quality issues, like having blind jumps on either side of the midpoint, but I like a lot of the challenges; the rope sections are well made, and despite me getting furiously angry with the coin snake, as soon as I did it the way the game told me to, rather than trying to cheat, it went a lot better, though it helped when i remembered the coin-block glitch.
The autoscroll area with the music blocks is very neat. Annoying because of one-hit kills, but still neat. Consider moving the midpoint to after the coin-snake door. Before that point, most kills will be from enemies, and after it, most will be instant lava kills, and it will be very annoying for the player to have to do the coin snake every time they want to challenge the autoscrolling and big boo sections.

If those issues are solved the level should be clearable. I'll be honest I was a little worried this would be a bad level that would never be good enough with just tweaking, and that you'd have to start from scratch, but once some of the jerkmoves were removed, it's a lot easier to see that the level does have some really cool design in it. Well done.
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Re: Level Clearing

Post by Kevinskie555 »

limepie20 wrote:Kevinskie:
I don't like how the pipes in the room you start out in are the exact same color as the background. It really looks odd. Try to make them look more distinct. Now, there are a few minor problems but there is one big problem I'd like to address. Don't get me wrong, I liked the level design and I thought the castle transition was very clever but the problem lies within the castle transition. It's the fact that there is a castle transition. I really liked the idea (the room itself was kinda annoying because there were way too many bros) but it ultimately takes away from the level because it strays from the levels theme: thwomps and castles. I liked the individual rooms, but as a whole level, it doesn't come together. Honestly, I think you can make a really good level that focuses on the castle transition theme because its an original idea that works well on its own. You could make condensed castle segments with the little story telling going on on the bottom, too. That works because the theme isn't grassland, it's the castle destruction cutscene theme. If you'd rather just have a thwomp level, you could take out the transition or whatever, but I'd be a little upset because I thought it was a really neat idea. I know you can do it, and do it well, at that.
So what exactly do you want me to do? Remove one of the 2 things? That'd be a shame cause I really worked hard on both of them :s Could I just add thwomps to the transition section instead of bros, to make it fit the theme?
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Re: Level Clearing

Post by raocow »

I think we can defend having a level that has a 'transition', if there's actually one. I think those can be neat for 'world-end' type levels.

If that is seriously the one problem, I think it should be okay to let this one through.

edit: basically what I'm saying is that you put the level 'between' two worlds (or areas I suppose) themed after the two different things. It can work.
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Re: Level Clearing

Post by shdwdrgnix »

flameofdoubt wrote:shdwdrgnix:
To actually create the block under the door you have to use a glitch, which we don't allow; make it possible to access a second p-switch and that'll be fine.
So even if there is a hint right under the place you start, it still is a bad thing?
flameofdoubt wrote:If those issues are solved the level should be clearable. I'll be honest I was a little worried this would be a bad level that would never be good enough with just tweaking, and that you'd have to start from scratch, but once some of the jerkmoves were removed, it's a lot easier to see that the level does have some really cool design in it. Well done.
Glad you enjoyed it, also there is another midpoint before the lava rooms, but I'm fairly certain the multiple midway patch needs something else.
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Re: Level Clearing

Post by limepie20 »

raocow wrote:I think we can defend having a level that has a 'transition', if there's actually one. I think those can be neat for 'world-end' type levels.

If that is seriously the one problem, I think it should be okay to let this one through.

edit: basically what I'm saying is that you put the level 'between' two worlds (or areas I suppose) themed after the two different things. It can work.
I guess we could do that.
I just think that a really awesome level could be made out of the theme used for the transition. Kevinskie, you have the potential to make this level and if you leave the level as is, that window becomes closed.
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Re: Level Clearing

Post by flameofdoubt »

shdwdrgnix: The official 'position' of the hack is that "glitches are not allowed". If you can come up with a hint that explains the glitch well enough, then we can probably make an exception, because this glitch isn't hard to do, or particularly hard to understand, but it would probably be simpler if it just used a second p-switch (it could drop from a different hole in the roof).
I didn't notice the second midpoint before the lava rooms, that's no longer a problem then.
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Re: Level Clearing

Post by shdwdrgnix »

There already was a hint, but if it isnt good enough I could always mention it in the message block earlier with the humourous tone.
hint.png
basicly shows a koopa hitting the block with a coin above it and points to a result, which is a koopa standing on the invisible block that was created.
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Re: Level Clearing

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shdwrgnix: Technically speaking that is a brilliant hint. The problem is I never noticed it. Part of the problem is that it's black, and in black you assume it's dark and you can't see things. If you made it a pale green so it emulated a chalkboard, or tried to give the impression it was important, really making it stand out... you need to make it super obvious that there is a koopa stood on thin air, and that this is an explanation for how that happens. When I first saw it I ignored it, and assumed it was a bit of the level I'd get to later; because it wasn't a direct threat to me, and wasn't glowing neon, I ignored it completely. When I saw that there was a koopa stood on thin air, I assumed I just couldn't see the block because it was dark/black or something, so it never consciously registered.

One other slight problem is the blue koopa hits the shell, making another invisible block. That means that part of the hint (the block having a coin about it) is missing if you don't catch it immediately. I would recommend locking the blue koopa in an invisible cage, so that the whole piece becomes a tableau to be viewed at the player's leisure.

I really like the hint, and I think if people noticed it they could work it out, so make it a lot more noticeable and I'll clear it.
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Re: Level Clearing

Post by Kevinskie555 »

limepie20 wrote:
raocow wrote:I think we can defend having a level that has a 'transition', if there's actually one. I think those can be neat for 'world-end' type levels.

If that is seriously the one problem, I think it should be okay to let this one through.

edit: basically what I'm saying is that you put the level 'between' two worlds (or areas I suppose) themed after the two different things. It can work.
I guess we could do that.
I just think that a really awesome level could be made out of the theme used for the transition. Kevinskie, you have the potential to make this level and if you leave the level as is, that window becomes closed.
Really, the transition was really just supposed to be a small side theme, like a "Break" from the theme, and it'd would continue afterwards, and I don't want to base the theme on the transition, because a thwomp theme was my intention.
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Re: Level Clearing

Post by limepie20 »

Yeah, it's just that the transition doesn't stick to the theme so it seems to separate from the level's theme and I don't like that. But it seems that you want to keep it, so if you don't change your mind just repost the level here.
It's not cleared yet.
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Re: Level Clearing

Post by Zia Satazaki »

I AM SUCH AN IDIOT! I completely forgot that I never actually submitted this for clearing...

Same thing from the testing thread except I raised the timer and took out the warp tile I used for testing.
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Re: Level Clearing

Post by Kevinskie555 »

http://www.mediafire.com/?m3stnkkk4wipnfr
I think i'll keep it as it is, so here it is again, ready for clearing.
Edit: Whoops, forgot the pipe color in the first room, I'll just fix that when submitting.
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Re: Level Clearing

Post by Cmbheadquarters »

flameofdoubt
Done. made the boss on a cloud, and throws mini tornados. rises from the start, and is the secret exit. the end of the level is just a goal. you will encounter a red block if you look hard enough. you need to jump on it to get to the p-switch. the block will yell ow! and fall down. get the p switch and use it on a pipe hidden under a platform, to fight the boss. thwomp face is chest, and I made some tweaks to accomidate the secret path

http://bin.smwcentral.net/u/15352/024%2 ... BFINAL.ips Last level I'm making. Thanks for everything, guys. Can't wait till this is released next year! viva la A2MT!
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Re: Level Clearing

Post by flameofdoubt »

JVyrn: I'll take a look at this as soon as I can. Just putting this here so you know I've seen your post.

cmbheadquarters: Fantastic. Needs a few tweaks but then consider it cleared and head on over to the submissions thread:
Does the name ROBOT need to change? Your call.
Do you want your chest to be harder to find? Again, up to you.
It's possible to jump over both red blocks without jumping on them, I would recommend making it so you can't reach the next ledge unless you do (though if this isn't possible because of the small jump height you get from bouncing off the red block, then we'll leave it as is. Most players will probably want to jump on the block just to see what it is, and if they avoid it will probably go back and jump on it anyway out of curiosity, so this shouldn't be a huge problem, just trying to iron out any possible bugs etc.).
Because the player is being quite antagonistic towards the boss for no apparent reason, I would recommend having a little text box appear when you jump on him the second time (when he transforms), that just says something like "Ow! What did I ever do to you? Leave me alone!", but ideally funnier than that.
He fires tornadoes to the left even if you're on his right. Is this fixable?
For the first half of the fight, you're usually above him, so his koopa-dropping attack isn't very useful. I would recommend either giving him a new attack or making the tornadoes his early attack and then maybe having homing bills that look like tornadoes for the second attack, or something similarly more dangerous.

Just to repeat, the level is great as it is, and definitely clearable. These continuous tweaks are just to make the level as high a quality as it can be, so they're by no means mandatory.
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Re: Level Clearing

Post by flameofdoubt »

Double post for bump.

JVyrn: First section of the level: Brilliant, well done. Second section: Too many jerkmoves, but plenty of clever challenges. For a fair number of the thwomps, like the one that chases you, you have no time to react to them. Too many of the puzzles in this second area you can only react to correctly after it's already killed you once. When you drop onto speed tiles blind for instance, the player doesn't have time to react, they have to already know it's coming.
The speed tiles can kill the player if they hit the wall at the wrong speed, but I know that's a problem of the code, and might not be fixable.

Sort out anything that the player can't be reasonably expected to react to (one example of a puzzle that is fine is the thwomp that you have to bait and then quickly avoid. The player can see the thwomp well before it moves, and if they don't dodge it in time, or they somehow miss it, it's their fault. Try to make it so the player can never cry foul, and it is always clearly their fault they died), and I'll clear it.
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