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World Map Organization - Public side

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KobaBeach
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World Map Organization - Public side

Post by KobaBeach »

I just noticed the Worlds tab on the "talkhaus smw" Google Sheet, so, might as well make a small thread so we can mirror the World Map discussion onto the forum and by extension, lurkers from the other Talkhaus Discords (Discordhaus, Patapon, ASMT, Codehaus) and like, possibly some SMWCers and SMBXers who still come to this ghost town of a website.

I have no real mandate but I do like the VIP6 and A2MT overworld designs, they're probably the best part of both games for me. Though I feel like rigidly designing in this manner is not recommended due to how complicated their openness can be? I seem to remember that the way Brutal Mario's overworld was set out with the Star World allows you to also speedrun to the endgame (when the special world colors kick in and Yoshi's House gets attacked by the Mushroom Kingdom) and do the main castles in random orders very easily as well. Theoretically, that is, as it was never finished, though the remnants of the new credits ASM do have a list of "conquered kingdoms" at least preliminarily coded.

I propose we use vanilla graphics like ASMT1 or Katrina's OW tileset as seen in 2 Mice for now, unless someone feels capable to make a custom tileset. I can help the editing and insertion of any new tileset, I've previously inserted some very downscaled Wild Arms tiles some time ago, when practicing making my own custom tiles.

I'm also used to making rips in my spare time using Paint.net, with two templates: one is styled like the RPG Maker ones with a checkerboard pattern to see how much goes into one bin file (I have up to three bins in one template, but I want to make one for AN2s too), the other is a vanilla SMW palette editor window for me to help organize colors before plonking them on LM, and I use YY-CHR for recoloring and file making. I also believe modern versions of LM can do larger palettes for the overworld a la VIP5 and Brutal Mario as well, so you don't have to hardcode the palette and possibly unused palette slots?

I've also dreamt today that I made a joke RPG Maker 2k/2k3 RTP tileset World 1 in a hack and raocow was cackling over it. Please do not insert this last idea into the overworld design planning.

I don't mind what is technically pirating from ASCII and Kadokawa (the license to use the RTP only extends to RPG Makers but >implying anyone cares) since Snails already paid for their dumb engines in my stead but it'd probably be a pain to get a handle of.

EDIT: Oh and make sure tangy's level is unavoidable. If any level is like extremely hard, make sure they're mostly optional or entirely optional (an example of the latter being like, how Poison Gas on vip2 doesn't really unlock anything new), just let people be able to tailor their game's difficulty and length to some extent. I'm not a big vanilla SMW fan, but that fluidity is one of the best parts of it.
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Post by SAJewers »

Yeah, I made that up last month; at the time, I was free and wanted to put some work into the project, so I thought I might start going through submitted levels to setart trying to sort stuff. Unfortunately, I got sidetracked by Christmas, working on the intro level, and some family/health stuff.

Is Feenicks still around the talkhaus? they did most of the OW GFX for A2XT1, and I wonder if would help.

As for worlds themselves, someone on discord suggested recently a deforested are as a world; I think it might be funny if we did that by taking ASMT's forest world and replacing all the trees with stumps. Someone also suggested a while back doing a "Fishmarket world", and I still like that idea.

Anything extremely hard I think we should do the ASMBXT thing, and group them all together as the postgame.

How many worlds do we want btw?
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Post by Lord Ruby »

SAJewers wrote: 1 year ago As for worlds themselves, someone on discord suggested recently a deforested are as a world; I think it might be funny if we did that by taking ASMT's forest world and replacing all the trees with stumps.
Actually, my suggestion was a world that is initially a forest, but where every single tree is gone by the time the player has cleared all exits, leaving it as an open plain or even a wasteland. Would be a reference to how raocow often talks about how trees are removed from the overworld when paths appear to the next level, and specifically one thing he or some top comment said at the end of jump-half's forest world about how Demo and Boon were responsible for it.

But your idea is also hilarious.
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Post by SAJewers »

Could do both, have the only trees remaining on the map be removed as your clear exits
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Lord Ruby wrote: 1 year agoActually, my suggestion was a world that is initially a forest, but where every single tree is gone by the time the player has cleared all exits, leaving it as an open plain or even a wasteland. Would be a reference to how raocow often talks about how trees are removed from the overworld when paths appear to the next level, and specifically one thing he or some top comment said at the end of jump-half's forest world about how Demo and Boon were responsible for it.
Demo's redemption arc: in one world all the levels cut down the forest; in a later world all the levels plant trees to make a new one.
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Post by KobaBeach »

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Post by SAJewers »

put a pig in every world like a2xt1 had a dancing palm tree in every world
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Post by KobaBeach »

SAJewers wrote: 1 year ago put a pig in every world like a2xt1 had a dancing palm tree in every world
so true bestie

Okay so tangy suggested that we like do an A2MT nonlinear map due to every castle being around difficulty 4 and I'd be down, I just worry that we have trouble with it somehow? Maybe balancing the difficulty or whatever.

Ellen also suggested a castle world (jokingly?), but I'd worry we won't have any castles for the other worlds. If we do have enough, bosses or not, I do agree we should just have it in the middle of the game as a joke, even if we don't do any ridiculous Megazord/Getter Robo ass multi tier castle graphics for the submap.
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Post by SAJewers »

Yeah, that might be a good idea. Right now, there are 8 castle levels (plus a level tagged "plain/castle"), and of the 7 inserted, 4 have a difficulty of 4, with easiest one marked 2.5 . Do note 2 of the castles don't have bosses.

Looking at the sheet, the average difficulty of levels that have a difficulty number assigned is 3.1, and the number of levels with a difficulty of 3 (14) is one more than the combines number of levels with difficulties of 1 (5), 1.5 (5), and 2 (3).

So yeah, maybe have a defined world 1, then open it up A2MT-style with a proper final world, then shuffle the hardest levels into some sort of postgame.

EDIT: Worst case, we could do a Castle + Ghost House World?
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Post by KobaBeach »

I do worry it'll be a bit on the harder side, even if it's less hard than the other ASMT SMWs, and we get a bunch of stupid raofans in the comments shitting on the game, as they are wont to do ("read a single book"). I have a comment disabling plugin tho.

We also should see what to do about some castle levels without proper bosses. I'll ask Ellen if she has anything in mind and I'll probably try to get someone to help me design one for Nao's stage. I'll try to get a list of the stages with em to help us figure something out.
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Post by SAJewers »

Oh right I forgot about Nao's castle. The other one I was thinking of was Sui Glide.
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Post by PSI Ninja »

Since levels are starting to get sorted into themed worlds on the spreadsheet, here are my two cents:

1) I would like my "Fishing Grounds" level to be in World 1, if that's okay. When I designed it, I kind of intended for it to be one of the first levels that would be played. If theming will be an issue, then maybe World 1 could have a shoreline (e.g., along a lake or beach) and the tile for my level can be on the water. Plus, the intro level leaves off at a shoreline, anyway.

2) How about we theme the Castle/Ghost world as a (Haunted) City/Town submap instead, ending with "Thwompire State Building" as the boss level. Then the other castle-themed levels without bosses like "Sui Glide" can still fit into this world, and the Ghost House levels could be in the suburbs. It would also make sense to keep the junkyard level "Hot Glue Garbage" in this world, too.

To echo what was said on the Discord and earlier posts, I agree that the fake Red Switch level "pREsent(ing) gifts Day" should be right before the real Red Switch level, "FIGHT THE RED SWITCH PALACE!". If it's possible, maybe have both level tiles be the Red Switch, with the second Red Switch revealing itself after the first one is beaten.
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Post by SAJewers »

PSI Ninja wrote: 1 year ago 2) How about we theme the Castle/Ghost world as a (Haunted) City/Town submap instead, ending with "Thwompire State Building" as the boss level. Then the other castle-themed levels without bosses like "Sui Glide" can still fit into this world, and the Ghost House levels could be in the suburbs. It would also make sense to keep the junkyard level "Hot Glue Garbage" in this world, too.
I originally had thwompire as the end level for there, but then figured with pun with castle of spirits might be funnier
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Post by KobaBeach »

might as well mirror it but qantuum's canyon.mid port should be used in the game somewhere if we can use it
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Post by SAJewers »

How many levels should we be aiming at per world?

also reminder, while i'm currently drafting some possible worlds, nothing is set in stone, so give suggestions and help out
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Post by KobaBeach »

maybe five??? it shouldn't be a necessary rule tho
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Post by PSI Ninja »

So, the "Worlds" tab of the spreadsheet currently has the following themes:
  • World 1
  • Open OW
  • Fishmarket
  • Deforested Forest
  • Cave
  • Sky
  • Castle/Ghost
  • Final World
  • Postgame
The typical number of submaps is six, right? I'm just trying to get a sense of what worlds would be in the submaps, and what worlds could be integrated into the main overworld. Right now, the cave and sky worlds would seem to require submaps by definition. The final worlds of hacks also tend to have their own submap. It might make sense to isolate the postgame to its own submap, although ASMT's postgame ended up on the main overworld.

I'm also thinking about overworld pathing. What I didn't like about ASMT's overworld was that it was too linear, especially having to go through 2-3 submaps in a row. I kind of like how SMWCP2 does it, where after World 1 you have a choice of either World 2 or 3, which then rejoin at World 4. Then after World 5, you can choose between World 6 and 7, which end up on different sides of World 8. One of gbreeze's levels has three exits, so we should really take advantage of that here. This is not as open as A2MT's overworld, though, but you still have a good amount of choices. However, none of these hacks have a fast travel system like SMW's Star World. Thinking about what Koba said in the OP, it would be cool if there was some kind of "fast track" to Bowser's Castle, perhaps touching upon some of the game's harder levels in the process. Presumably, we would need to use up another submap slot for a potential Star World.

It's still pretty early to be thinking this deeply about the overworld, but I just wanted to throw some more ideas out there. Should have a better idea after March 29th, when we have all of the levels submitted.
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Post by SAJewers »

6 submaps is the max yes. If we go 5 levels +a castle per world/submap, that's 36 levels, which would currently leave 47 levels (assuming every claimed level gets submitted) for the Open OW, world 1, and the postgame, which should all probably be on the main ow. I don't know how many life farms/rest levels we'll have and how they'll fit in though.

While Use of a Goal Posts does technically have 3 exits, it's more 2 exits and a failure state, so it should probably be treated like 2 exits, with the failure state just looping back like chocolate island 3.

For Fast Travel, there are 3 options that wouldn't require a Star Road submap: Should also note that at one point I sketched out a possible Mountain OW, but then removed because I wasn't sure that was too many worlds or not. I think I also saw the possibility of an "Abstract World" as well. My big problem right now is that, while love the idea of a Fishmarket world, and really want to do it, I don't really know what levels to put in there right now.

Also, for reference, A2MT's submaps had 11, 8, 11, 11, 10, 3, and 9 levels respectively, leaving I believe 38 levels in the main Open OW (note I probably counted wrong).
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Post by Scarfley »

SAJewers wrote: 1 year ago My big problem right now is that, while love the idea of a Fishmarket world, and really want to do it, I don't really know what levels to put in there right now.
Some levels that might make sense to put there based on theming:
- matcha ampersand avocado (also fits the deforested forest world)
- Fishing Grounds
- Fungus Forest Flow (also fits the deforested forest world)
- Sweet Paradise (also fits the sky world)
- time to take a (but not so sure, probably fits the Haunted Town World better)
- Quirky Quarry (also fits the cave world)
- Love Frog Hangout Spot
- Revenge of the Sushi (a bit more difficult than the others, maybe as a star world level that gets unlocked in this world?)
- City of Gulp Gulp (if it gets finished)

Maybe the Fishmarket World could be part of world 1 or something, since most of these levels aren't that difficult (and "Fishing Grounds" was intended as a world 1 level and fits the fishmarket world theme). Maybe have the world be visited twice over the course of the game (once early on in world 1 and once later on in the game).
Just some ideas, since I agree that the fishmarket world is an amazing idea for a world that would be cool to have in the final game somehow.

Unrelated but maybe put "Aileron Moonbounce" right before the "Moon Temple" on the map.
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Post by Lord Ruby »

I feel like the fishmarket joke only really works if the player has been shown at the very least one or two cool maps before it. I guess it could work as part of world 1 if the player starts on the overworld, but even then I think it would be more effective as a later world.

Hm... maybe it could work as some kind of star world? Like, there are just random paths off the edges of the maps (or behind mountains, into water, forests, et cetera) that lead to it without any coherence, like how the star warps could more or less appear anywhere. The easy fish level could essentially be the first star world level, then.
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Post by SAJewers »

Yeah, for the fishmarket joke to work, it would need to be a subworld (with levels) after world 1.

Personally, I'm not too sold on the idea of having a star world, though I do like the fast transport idea.

Sushi I think has to go in the postgame for it's difficulty. What I think I may have to look at is, instead of making the Fishmarket world the world for water and water-themed levels, make it the world for abstract and humorous themed levels?

edit: should probably note, the only levels left unsorted are the blue and green switch palaces, the 1inserted life farm, and level that i haven't seen anything of.
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Lord Ruby wrote: 1 year ago I feel like the fishmarket joke only really works if the player has been shown at the very least one or two cool maps before it. I guess it could work as part of world 1 if the player starts on the overworld, but even then I think it would be more effective as a later world.
SAJewers wrote: 1 year ago Yeah, for the fishmarket joke to work, it would need to be a subworld (with levels) after world 1.
I wan't sure whether the fishmarket world would be an actual fishmarket in reference to the A2MT fishmarket joke or the non-literal A2MT definition of fishmarket (Not sure how to really express this in words, I hope it's kind of understandable what I mean). If it's the latter, then yeah, I agree that the world should probably show up later on in the game. :slow:
Lord Ruby wrote: 1 year ago Hm... maybe it could work as some kind of star world? Like, there are just random paths off the edges of the maps (or behind mountains, into water, forests, et cetera) that lead to it without any coherence, like how the star warps could more or less appear anywhere.
I like this idea!
SAJewers wrote: 1 year ago What I think I may have to look at is, instead of making the Fishmarket world the world for water and water-themed levels, make it the world for abstract and humorous themed levels?
That could work too if there are enough levels that fit this criteria. Maybe water levels as well as abstract and humorous levels if there aren't enough otherwise. Or if we go with Lord Ruby's idea and make the fishmarket kind of like a star world, then maybe there doesn't need to be any real coherent theme to the levels there at all.
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Lord Ruby wrote: 1 year ago Hm... maybe it could work as some kind of star world? Like, there are just random paths off the edges of the maps (or behind mountains, into water, forests, et cetera) that lead to it without any coherence, like how the star warps could more or less appear anywhere. The easy fish level could essentially be the first star world level, then.
SAJewers wrote: 1 year ago Sushi I think has to go in the postgame for it's difficulty. What I think I may have to look at is, instead of making the Fishmarket world the world for water and water-themed levels, make it the world for abstract and humorous themed levels?
Scarfley wrote: 1 year ago That could work too if there are enough levels that fit this criteria. Maybe water levels as well as abstract and humorous levels if there aren't enough otherwise. Or if we go with Lord Ruby's idea and make the fishmarket kind of like a star world, then maybe there doesn't need to be any real coherent theme to the levels there at all.
I think we can make a Fishmarket world with water-themed levels work. I can concede my "Fishing Grounds" level as the intro level to this world after all, rather than being in World 1. Maybe make it lead to a rest area/life farm that is a literal fish market to drive home the reference. If we're short on water levels, I can also port my VLDC13 level to the collab, which is ship/water-themed. It wasn't that well-received though, so I can remake it a little better.

Also, we should reassess the difficulty of "Revenge of the Sushi". Somebody labeled it as a 5/5 on the spreadsheet, but to me, it feels more like a 3 or a 3.5. It's nowhere near the caliber of difficulty as "Good ol' days" and "PREHISTORIC DOOM CASTLE", which are other 5/5 levels. With this in mind, "Revenge of the Sushi" could be the "boss" level of Fishmarket world, the joke being that you deal with Boss Bass. Would be a good alternative if we don't have a water-themed castle level when submissions close.

For the record, I also like the idea of having Fishmarket world as AAT's Star World equivalent with abstract-themed levels (if we decide to have a Star World). It would make sense because of how jarringly different it would look compared to the other submaps. I have no strong feelings on what the Fishmarket should be, so I'll just go along with whatever the majority thinks.
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Post by KobaBeach »

PSI Ninja wrote: 1 year ago With this in mind, "Revenge of the Sushi" could be the "boss" level of Fishmarket world, the joke being that you deal with Boss Bass. Would be a good alternative if we don't have a water-themed castle level when submissions close.
I think we should do more of this with the levels, instead of focusing on a standard castle ending for each world, due to the amount of people not making castles with Koopalings and such. I think Rise to the Challenge did something similar with just standard levels as bookends.
PSI Ninja wrote: 1 year ago For the record, I also like the idea of having Fishmarket world as AAT's Star World equivalent with abstract-themed levels (if we decide to have a Star World). It would make sense because of how jarringly different it would look compared to the other submaps. I have no strong feelings on what the Fishmarket should be, so I'll just go along with whatever the majority thinks.
I'd like a Star World due to the option of non-linearity, but I'm not forcing anything on anyone. I just wonder if like a submap of dots on water tiles will look good? Maybe it's because I'm Portuguese, I'm not sure how this is handled elsewhere, but I'm used to fish markets being like little aisles with rows of fish and seafood on like ice (with some salt?) for people to buy from Incredibly Loud Salesladies (usually ladies, nothing saying men and nbs can't do it either), usually indoors, but not always I think? The fish section on my local chain supermarkets are a very small version of that.

I'm specifically getting images of the few times I went to the indoor fish and fruit market downtown that is only open in weekend mornings, I believe? And the Loulé Market, which is a pretty relaxing place imo but I like seeing local produce in general. I never buy anything there, tho.

Here's some pictures I found of the latter's indoor area, use them as inspo if u wish.
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I also found a few pics of their local Flea Market, but sadly the English sources call it the G**sy Market and... Ouch.
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Post by Lord Ruby »

Well, a fishmarket world would obviously be hideous. But in a good way.

What I think the more important issue is, is how to indicate which paths are available, to save the player from having to randomly try pressing directions.

Perhaps something like this? A block of (fake) level tiles for unreachable areas (could disappear as paths are revealed), with the real levels spaced slightly apart, showing paths.
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