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World Map Organization - Public side

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Lord Ruby
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Re: World Map Organization - Public side

Post by Lord Ruby »

About the world themes, I think we need to be mindful of not grouping levels too hard. If we put all the water levels in the fishmarket, it's going to be really unvaried. Water and ice worlds tend to be especially vulnerable to this.

I'd say it's wisest to primarily group levels based on aesthetic theming while consciously separating them if they have the same gameplay theming. But aesthetic theming can also be worth varying: Scattering a few fortresses, ghost houses, and lakes throughout the other worlds, for instance.
PSI Ninja wrote: 1 year ago
Lord Ruby wrote: 1 year ago Speaking of which, I see we don't have very many levels with multiple exits assigned to the open OW, while there are many worlds with at least three such levels - we might need to move some secret exit levels to the open OW to set up branching paths where they make the most sense.
My take is that for submaps, we should aim to have at most two levels that have secret exits. One of these levels should be at or near the start of the world, to offer a choice of paths early on. The secret exit path should be shorter than the normal exit path, and perhaps contain the harder levels, too. The other two-exit level can have its secret lead to a Rest Area, a Switch Palace, or a pipe shortcut to another world (not sure how useful the latter would be if we do an open overworld, though). These rewards can be on the normal path, leading to a tradeoff where you can take the secret path for speed, but at the cost of not activating Switch Blocks or having a convenient life farm. Having more than two secret exit levels runs the risk of having extraneous paths, which would be wasteful.
Well, let's not get too formulaic, but that would be a good formula for one or two subworlds. Although letting the subworlds lead to each other in general sounds like a good idea, as long as we don't make it too convoluted.
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Re: World Map Organization - Public side

Post by PSI Ninja »

I think there's a good amount of water levels distributed throughout the game outside of the Fishmarket. I agree that the Ghost Houses are being grouped together too strongly, though. Perhaps "Ghost/Castle" world could just have a general urban theme instead. But if we move, let's say, two of the Ghost Houses out, then I'm not sure what would thematically go in their place. Maybe a Switch Palace could occupy one of those spots?

Also, I just noticed, but "Switching Difficulties" is missing from the "Worlds" tab in the spreadsheet.
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Re: World Map Organization - Public side

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PSI Ninja wrote: 1 year ago Here are some of my suggestions for level placements:
  • Fungus Forest Flow could go into World 1, because of its currently assigned low difficulty. It would also offer a branching path early on. The Feeling of a Freshman could also go into the first world, being rated at a 2/5.
  • Sweet Paradise seems like it would fit better in sky world rather than the Fishmarket. A Dream of Green Apples could go in its place, since it has a substantial water section.
  • Since Lady Crithania is currently a world-ending level, it could lead from the Fishmarket directly to watch out! bad word ahead on the main overworld. This transition would be nice because the ship level ends at an iceberg, and tangy's level uses the same aesthetics.
  • If we decide to put snow-themed levels together on the main overworld as described above, then Where The Whales Come To Rest could be moved out of the Fishmarket, reducing the number of two-exit levels in that submap. Bumpty's level could then come after tangy's, while still coming after Revenge of the Sushi.
  • PUNT RETURN should probably be situated later in the game, due to how trivial it is to farm many lives.
  • I'm working on a sky-themed level that will have a boss, although the boss probably won't be finished by next week's deadline. Therefore, Level D could become the world-ending castle for sky world, and Spikes do hurt (sometimes) can be moved somewhere else, since it's not sky-themed, anyway.
  • To reduce the number of two-exit levels in sky world, I'd move either or both of Warning! It's a Red Radish Morning and Aileron Moonbounce into the main overworld, since they seem less sky-themed than other levels in that world.
  • Moon Palace should go into sky world instead of the city, because it would fit the theme better.
  • I disagree that my level, Coasting Redwoods, is postgame difficulty. Compared to other levels, I feel it's more of a 4/5. That being said, I think it would fit better in the forest submap, or even the final world if it's still considered to be too hard.
My thought with World 1 is that there should probably be less levels than the other submaps, probably half, hence why the 1st 2 levels mentioned aren't there.
Agree with Sweet Paradaise, but I'm afraid we might not have enough levels for The Fishmarket otherwise, which is why I have it there right now.
I was assuming with submaps it would be like A2MT where beating the final level in a submap wouldn't lead anywhere, just unlock more of a thing for the final world (like in the bridge area thingy in vip6). It is an interesting idea though, but that would need to be part of figuring out how things connect.
Whales it was insisted it should come directly after Sushi (by who I forget)
If it weren't for Tim Hortons, I'd've put PUNT RETURN in Ghost/Castle World. I was under the assumption that submaps could be beaten in any order (like in a2mt, or the midgame of a2xt1), and in that scenario, i'm not sure that's an issue
I could move Spikes Do Hurt into the middle of Cave World, then chuck Quirky Quarry into the main OW, if you're doing a sky castle.
Red Radish Morning is something I'd like to move out, and I can see the reasoning for moving Aeilron Moonbase out, but again, There's nothing I can put in currently to replace them
Moon Palace I can sorta agree with, though at that point it probably shouldn't be marked as a castle (unless we do my suggestion below which makes this moot)
I didn't mark the difficulty for Coasting Redwoods. Agreed it's not a 5, and I can see putting it in Forest World to move Green Garden out to the Main OW.
Lord Ruby wrote: 1 year ago About the world themes, I think we need to be mindful of not grouping levels too hard. If we put all the water levels in the fishmarket, it's going to be really unvaried. Water and ice worlds tend to be especially vulnerable to this.

I'd say it's wisest to primarily group levels based on aesthetic theming while consciously separating them if they have the same gameplay theming. But aesthetic theming can also be worth varying: Scattering a few fortresses, ghost houses, and lakes throughout the other worlds, for instance.
I see your point, I'm just trying to avoid sticking in levels that are too out of place, and with a ghost house/castle world, it's a bit limiting.
PSI Ninja wrote: 1 year ago I think there's a good amount of water levels distributed throughout the game outside of the Fishmarket. I agree that the Ghost Houses are being grouped together too strongly, though. Perhaps "Ghost/Castle" world could just have a general urban theme instead. But if we move, let's say, two of the Ghost Houses out, then I'm not sure what would thematically go in their place. Maybe a Switch Palace could occupy one of those spots?

Also, I just noticed, but "Switching Difficulties" is missing from the "Worlds" tab in the spreadsheet.
One solution could be to drop the Ghost House/Castle world idea altogether, and replace with a possible Mountain World. I seem to recall there was a decent amount of mountain-ish levels back in december, but dropped it because iirc forest/cave/sky seemed stronger levels-wise, while people really seemed married to the fishmarket and ghost house/castle world ideas. It would alleviate things, but it really seemed like people wanted that to happen.

also dammit, i must've accidently overwrote a cell while moving levels around; it was supposed to be in the final world.

Anyway, I should be asleep by now, so I'll look into making some of these changes tomorrow morning
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Re: World Map Organization - Public side

Post by SAJewers »

OK, I replaced Ghost House/Castle with Mountain World, and shuffled levels around accordingly, including temporarily slotting in 5 levels that haven't been posted yet: Catabo's Castle that the mentioned this morning in the Discord that has 2 exits, PSI Ninja's Sky level that was mentioned in a prior post, levelengine's athletic/mountain level in order to fill an open slot there, and 2 levels marked with a 5 difficulty. This now means the only missing slots are rest areas for 3 subworlds

With this change, there are now 7 secret exits in the main OW(+ Use of a Goal Posts). The Fishmarket and Cave World are the only subworlds with more than 2 secret exits (both have 3). Postgame now has 9 levels as well.
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Re: World Map Organization - Public side

Post by PSI Ninja »

SAJewers wrote: 1 year ago OK, I replaced Ghost House/Castle with Mountain World, and shuffled levels around accordingly, including temporarily slotting in 5 levels that haven't been posted yet: Catabo's Castle that the mentioned this morning in the Discord that has 2 exits, PSI Ninja's Sky level that was mentioned in a prior post, levelengine's athletic/mountain level in order to fill an open slot there, and 2 levels marked with a 5 difficulty. This now means the only missing slots are rest areas for 3 subworlds
I mostly agree with the level placements now, but I still think we should have a city/urban-themed world. It would be more interesting and less cliche than a mountain world, and we would have enough levels to constitute one. Based on the latest level claims, here's one possibility:
  • A Nighttime Hike Up the Mountain (cabins, mountains)
  • Can't Go Back (construction zone, mountains)
  • Switching Difficulties (mountains, two exits)
  • time to take a (water level)
  • What The House? (ghost house, midboss, two exits)
  • Hot Glue Garbage (garbage dump)
  • Tap-Tapping In The Warehouse (factory)
  • Thwompire State Building (castle, endboss)
  • Tim Hortons (rest area)
As a compromise, maybe it could be a city surrounded by mountains. So I put a couple of mountain-themed levels there, too. Also, "Tim Hortons" was edited a while ago to have a city background in the Yoshi Wings area, and so it would be weird to put it in cave world now.
SAJewers wrote: 1 year ago
EllenHouraisan wrote: 1 year ago Oh no, I created problems. :kood:

Here's a suggestion: how about having THE OBSTACLE unlock a star warp? I'm not completely sure if there are any plans for a star world, but at any rate, if we use OW stars for shortcuts around the map, that could be one way of making it so that the level doesn't gate away any parts of the overworld, while offering something substantial for clearing it.
The current plan AFAIK is that I'm making a level to do quick warping between areas. Basically a like star world, but without having to take up a subworld or stuffing it in a corner of the main OW. I've been meaning to work on it for a few days now but I keep getting sidetracked 😳.
Late on this, but maybe "THE OBSTACLE" could block off access to the quick warp level you're making. That way, it gives the player an incentive to go back after hitting the Yellow Switch by unlocking a convenience/quality of life option, while at the same time not making it a requirement to beat the game.
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Re: World Map Organization - Public side

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PSI Ninja wrote: 1 year ago I mostly agree with the level placements now, but I still think we should have a city/urban-themed world. It would be more interesting and less cliche than a mountain world, and we would have enough levels to constitute one. Based on the latest level claims, here's one possibility:
  • A Nighttime Hike Up the Mountain (cabins, mountains)
  • Can't Go Back (construction zone, mountains)
  • Switching Difficulties (mountains, two exits)
  • time to take a (water level)
  • What The House? (ghost house, midboss, two exits)
  • Hot Glue Garbage (garbage dump)
  • Tap-Tapping In The Warehouse (factory)
  • Thwompire State Building (castle, endboss)
  • Tim Hortons (rest area)
As a compromise, maybe it could be a city surrounded by mountains. So I put a couple of mountain-themed levels there, too. Also, "Tim Hortons" was edited a while ago to have a city background in the Yoshi Wings area, and so it would be weird to put it in cave world now.
Only problem with your list is that there would be only 1 level with a secret exit, so I replaced Nighttime Hike with Cryotranquility (might also swap can't go back with duckmountain, but I have yet to see can't go back to make a decision). Now we just need to find a level for The Fishmarket (+ the rest areas).
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Re: World Map Organization - Public side

Post by camwoodstock »

due to a wide variety of Circumstances™ (read: pre-existing PC troubles and generally not having touched the ROM since after finalizing our level) we'd like to ask where we can see the current world map, just to like, give feedback on its aesthetics and whatnot, since we just thought of this & it interests us
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Re: World Map Organization - Public side

Post by SAJewers »

camwoodstock wrote: 1 year ago due to a wide variety of Circumstances™ (read: pre-existing PC troubles and generally not having touched the ROM since after finalizing our level) we'd like to ask where we can see the current world map, just to like, give feedback on its aesthetics and whatnot, since we just thought of this & it interests us
right now, all we have is a list on the spreadsheet. It's just has the levels roughly sorted into worlds, with boss and boss-adjacent levels marked in bold.

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Re: World Map Organization - Public side

Post by PSI Ninja »

Now that we have a pretty good idea of the theming, which worlds do people think should go into the submaps? There are only six submaps available, so some of the worlds will have to be on the main map.

And looking at the current level placements, I don't think we need to stuff all of the 4.5 and 5 difficulty levels into the postgame. That seems like too much. A couple of those levels could go into the final world or later in the main overworld, for example. Conversely, maybe a slightly easier level can go into the postgame too (with a 4 or 3.5 difficulty), to help provide a bit of relief.

Other than that, the placements seem pretty solid, though I might have some specific suggestions later on. Need to think on it a bit.
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Post by SAJewers »

For sure world 1, maybe the postgame as well?

Have you played Snake Block Fortress? I'm not sure it deserves a 5 myself (I almost want to move it to the end of the fishmarket and dump sui glide or teal house back to the main ow, though i think it works better in the middle of postgame rather than taking over the end of fishtmarket)

alternate idea as well: move the touhou level into final world, and dump green apples back to the main ow (i'd move killer volcano, but then there'd be only 1 secret exit there)

edit: could also dump killer into the main ow, move tree ruins from forest to final world, then move warm welcome into forest
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Post by Luckwaive »

I reckon that the fishmarket, cave, and urban mountain worlds should probably be submaps at the least, I have a hard time seeing how you'd naturally include those in the overworld.

Maybe the overworld can lead into the mountain world through the side, and then Demo climbs up the mountain leading into the sky world? Or alternatively the other way around, with a pipe warping up to the sky world and then climbing down the mountain into the city, and being fed out back into the OW or different submap. Just thinking out loud here.
SAJewers wrote: 1 year ago For sure world 1, maybe the postgame as well?
Going to actually cast my vote in the opposite direction regarding the postgame . I really liked how in ASMT there was this island in the center of the map that you could see but not access until the end, it created a cool sense of mystery and excitement around it.
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Post by SAJewers »

Whoops, I meant World 1 and The Postgame shouldn't be submaps. Sorry
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Post by Luckwaive »

Oh, I see. In that case I can agree wholeheartedly.
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Post by PSI Ninja »

I got ninja'd while writing this, but I'll still include my original thoughts.

Fishmarket seems like it would need its own submap for the joke to work. Cave and sky might be easier to design aesthetically as submaps, though I can't speak for the person who will actually be doing the designing. Forest could fit on either a submap or the main overworld. The deforestation joke should still land in either case. As for the remaining two worlds, I imagine Demo climbing a mountain towards the end of the main overworld, kind of like in Brutal Mario. The city could be on a diverging path, and final world could be at the top. This is just me spitballing, though. I don't know what the structure of a potential open overworld will look like yet.
SAJewers wrote: 1 year ago Have you played Snake Block Fortress? I'm not sure it deserves a 5 myself (I almost want to move it to the end of the fishmarket and dump sui glide or teal house back to the main ow, though i think it works better in the middle of postgame rather than taking over the end of fishtmarket)

alternate idea as well: move the touhou level into final world, and dump green apples back to the main ow (i'd move killer volcano, but then there'd be only 1 secret exit there)

edit: could also dump killer into the main ow, move tree ruins from forest to final world, then move warm welcome into forest
The hardest part of "Assault on Snake Block Fortress" is the boss. I don't think the level itself is as hard as the other 5-rated levels. Problem is, not much fits into Fishmarket as of now, and I don't think that level would make much sense there. "Sui Glide" doesn't fit into Fishmarket either, although I can see the case for keeping "Weird Teal House" there (it has a Fishing Fish Guy). Maybe Fishmarket can just be a little shorter than the other worlds (or maybe we can move the Blue Switch Palace back in).

"Rift Collapse" could be the start of the final world, due to what the auto-message says at the beginning of the level. Agreed with putting "Who put Touhou in my hack?" into the final world. I don't think it's as hard as 4season's other postgame levels. We could place "Killy Killer Volcano" onto the main overworld, maybe somewhere close to the final world, then replace it with "The Purkinje Tree Ruins", since it has a nice abstract section that would thematically fit.

Other thoughts: "Cryotranquility" has a boss, and "Tap-Tapping In The Warehouse" has a planned boss, so we'll have up to three boss levels in city world. That's probably too much, so "Cryotranquility" may have to move out onto the main overworld. One of the red levels would need to replace it, so maybe "how eerie, an eerie"? I don't consider "time to take a" as being a Ghost House level, if there's the concern of being too many Ghost Houses in one world. Then I would suggest a three-way swap: "A Dream of Green Apples" goes into Fishmarket, "Sui Glide" goes back into the city, and "Tank ga Warui" goes into the final world. Makes a bit more sense to me with regards to theming.
Luckwaive wrote: 1 year ago Going to actually cast my vote in the opposite direction regarding the postgame . I really liked how in ASMT there was this island in the center of the map that you could see but not access until the end, it created a cool sense of mystery and excitement around it.
I agree with this. I have some opinions on how the postgame should be accessed, but will save that for another time.
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Post by Luckwaive »

PSI Ninja wrote: 1 year ago "Cryotranquility" has a boss, and "Tap-Tapping In The Warehouse" has a planned boss, so we'll have up to three boss levels in city world. That's probably too much, so "Cryotranquility" may have to move out onto the main overworld.
Yeah I think this makes sense, especially if the mountain world is going to lead into the final world. I personally don't think Cryo is that hard since I was quite generous with power ups, midways points and resets. So it would definitely fit better earlier in the game in general.
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Re: World Map Organization - Public side

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PSI Ninja wrote: 1 year ago Other thoughts: "Cryotranquility" has a boss, and "Tap-Tapping In The Warehouse" has a planned boss, so we'll have up to three boss levels in city world. That's probably too much, so "Cryotranquility" may have to move out onto the main overworld. One of the red levels would need to replace it, so maybe "how eerie, an eerie"? I don't consider "time to take a" as being a Ghost House level, if there's the concern of being too many Ghost Houses in one world. Then I would suggest a three-way swap: "A Dream of Green Apples" goes into Fishmarket, "Sui Glide" goes back into the city, and "Tank ga Warui" goes into the final world. Makes a bit more sense to me with regards to theming.
Another option, though I need more time tomorrow to properly gauge this:
  • Move Cryotranquility to Sky World, to be the mid castle level over Aerial Airships (which just becomes a standard level)
  • Killer Volcano replaces Cryotranquility in Sky World
  • Touhou replaces Killer Volcano in Mountain World
  • Kick Accordion Depths back to main OW
  • Move Tree Ruins into Final World
  • Warm Welcome replaces Tree Ruins in Forest
  • Kick Green Apples back to main OW
still doesn't fix sui glide in the fishmarket, and idk how to fix that right now outside of moving bathroom in there. also would make the ship level the only levels in a castle slot without a boss or anything boss related. other option i'll throw out is shuffling things to make one of the levels with a boss the the level that proceeds the final world.

I'll try and give this more of a thought tomorrow
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Re: World Map Organization - Public side

Post by SAJewers »

OK, here's what I ended up going with:
  • Moved Cryotranquility to be the final level in The Fishmarket.
  • Lady Crithania is now the mid level "castle" for the Fishmarket. This makes the fishmarket half water, half ice/snow world. This also separates both boss bass levels from being back-to-back, which I think is ok here
  • So we don't have 4 secret exits in the Fishmarket, moved Love Frog Hangout Spot to Cave World
  • Moved Who put Touhou in my hack? and The Purkinje Tree Ruins to Abstract/Final World
  • Moved how eerie, an eerie to Urban/Mountain World
  • Moved A Warm Welcome to Forest World
  • Moved Tank ga Warui to Abstract/Final World
  • Moved An Infinite Dream to Sky world, with also consequently makes it half Sky, half Space World
  • Moved baby catnips get tragic concussions, A Dream of Green Apples, Accordion Depths, Killy Killer Volcano, and Sui Glide to the Open OW
With this, I think The Fishmarket, Sky/Space World, and Urban/Mountain World might be set in terms of level order.
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Post by Lord Ruby »

Ah... I kinda had the postgame in mind when I designed Locus of Control (008), since I feel the level should be ... highly optional, what with its gimmick. But I guess it turned out to not be that hard in the end.

I think world 1 should be in a submap, in case players decide to head toward the fishmarket first (if we stick with the open world thing). But since it would be so short, I think it could share a submap with another world (which would have to be half-overworld, half-submap, since none of the other worlds are so short).
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Post by SAJewers »

I think the idea for World 1 was that you had to beat that first before the Open OW would be available.

I can also see moving Locus of Control to the Postgame, though idk what to move out in place of it. Maybe Jumpers are all winners?
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Post by PSI Ninja »

I looked at the updated level orders, and it seems pretty good. Personally, I feel that "Jumpers Are All Winners" is harder than "Good ol' days". I'm not as consistent at beating it, due to its long final section. I wonder if anyone else has beaten these two levels legit. Also, "baby catnips get tragic concussions" has two exits, but it's labelled with one exit on the "Worlds" tab on the spreadsheet.

At this point, I think it would be really helpful if someone could start sketching out possible layouts for the overworld/submaps. It's hard to see how everything should fit together with just words.
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PSI Ninja wrote: 1 year ago I looked at the updated level orders, and it seems pretty good. Personally, I feel that "Jumpers Are All Winners" is harder than "Good ol' days". I'm not as consistent at beating it, due to its long final section. I wonder if anyone else has beaten these two levels legit. Also, "baby catnips get tragic concussions" has two exits, but it's labelled with one exit on the "Worlds" tab on the spreadsheet.

At this point, I think it would be really helpful if someone could start sketching out possible layouts for the overworld/submaps. It's hard to see how everything should fit together with just words.
1) I haven't really looked at the postgames levels recently, and just moved jumpers because had it was listed 4.5. If people think good ol days is easier, we can swap them.

2) fixed

3) agreed. I'll see if sheets can do anything for that
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PSI Ninja wrote: 1 year ago At this point, I think it would be really helpful if someone could start sketching out possible layouts for the overworld/submaps. It's hard to see how everything should fit together with just words.
OK, I managed to hack something together with the drawings tool in a new sheet. Unfortunately, it seems there's a max size for these, so things might be a tad squished together, but it'll have to do for now.

I think the order of priority needs to be:
  • A layout for the Open OW
  • Where Rest Areas and Quick Warps fit
  • What secret Exits lead to
  • Names for submaps (and maybe the Open OW too)
  • OW music (there's a patch that allows for music changes in the main map)
Also, is there a volunteer for actually making the OW?
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Post by Catabo »

Maybe a "make an overworld sketch" thread is in order, with the final outline of what goes where in the first post? I'm obviously thinking about trying but i'd like to see if anyone else comes up with a sketch too.
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SAJewers
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Re: World Map Organization - Public side

Post by SAJewers »

I think this is fine for now, since the one of the main things we need is to figure out right now is how levels will connect. The other thing we need to figure out is who actually makes the OW.
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Re: World Map Organization - Public side

Post by KobaBeach »

i'd absolutely help with sketching but i really just wing any sort of map design as someone who actually likes using the overworld editor and rpg maker.

if there /is/ space on the ow tileset, feel free to add little sight gags to it, like the moai off the corner in vip5 or the piggies in a2mt. decorating maps is super fun
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