World Map Organization - Public side

[SAJewers]

Also, we should reassess the difficulty of "Revenge of the Sushi". Somebody labeled it as a 5/5 on the spreadsheet, but to me, it feels more like a 3 or a 3.5. It's nowhere near the caliber of difficulty as "Good ol' days" and "PREHISTORIC DOOM CASTLE", which are other 5/5 levels. With this in mind, "Revenge of the Sushi" could be the "boss" level of Fishmarket world, the joke being that you deal with Boss Bass. Would be a good alternative if we don't have a water-themed castle level when submissions close.

For the record, I also like the idea of having Fishmarket world as AAT's Star World equivalent with abstract-themed levels (if we decide to have a Star World). It would make sense because of how jarringly different it would look compared to the other submaps. I have no strong feelings on what the Fishmarket should be, so I'll just go along with whatever the majority thinks.

Agreed in Sushi not being 5. Having said that, I also think Life Goes On is harder than a 3 (I changed it 4(P))

As for Star World, If it's for abstract/gimmick levls, I feel like we should do a callback to ZebraSpace from ASMBXT/A2XT rather than use the Fishmarket for that

With this in mind, "Revenge of the Sushi" could be the "boss" level of Fishmarket world, the joke being that you deal with Boss Bass. Would be a good alternative if we don't have a water-themed castle level when submissions close.

I think we should do more of this with the levels, instead of focusing on a standard castle ending for each world, due to the amount of people not making castles with Koopalings and such. I think Rise to the Challenge did something similar with just standard levels as bookends.

For the record, I also like the idea of having Fishmarket world as AAT's Star World equivalent with abstract-themed levels (if we decide to have a Star World). It would make sense because of how jarringly different it would look compared to the other submaps. I have no strong feelings on what the Fishmarket should be, so I'll just go along with whatever the majority thinks.

I'd like a Star World due to the option of non-linearity, but I'm not forcing anything on anyone. I just wonder if like a submap of dots on water tiles will look good? Maybe it's because I'm Portuguese, I'm not sure how this is handled elsewhere, but I'm used to fish markets being like little aisles with rows of fish and seafood on like ice (with some salt?) for people to buy from Incredibly Loud Salesladies (usually ladies, nothing saying men and nbs can't do it either), usually indoors, but not always I think? The fish section on my local chain supermarkets are a very small version of that.

I'm specifically getting images of the few times I went to the indoor fish and fruit market downtown that is only open in weekend mornings, I believe? And the Loulé Market, which is a pretty relaxing place imo but I like seeing local produce in general. I never buy anything there, tho.

Here's some pictures I found of the latter's indoor area, use them as inspo if u wish.

I also found a few pics of their local Flea Market, but sadly the English sources call it the G**sy Market and... Ouch.

Currently, only 1 world (not counting world 1) doesn't have a boss/castle level (with 1 castle still in progress). Having said that, I have been thinking about possibly having Switches fill those spots. Right now, I'm thinking 8 level per world, with 2 levels being levels like switches, boss/castle levels, etc (not counting world 1 or the open ow). Sushi could probably fit that.

I feel like not doing a submap of dots on water tiles would ruin the joke. Maybe go halfway and have it start off like that, but after each exit, a stall gets built or something?

[KobaBeach]

I feel like not doing a submap of dots on water tiles would ruin the joke. Maybe go halfway and have it start off like that, but after each exit, a stall gets built or something?

i guess i'm just being a wet blanket

sorry if i sound like im forcing you to discard the traditional fish market

As for Star World, If it's for abstract/gimmick levls, I feel like we should do a callback to ZebraSpace from ASMBXT/A2XT rather than use the Fishmarket for that

remember when the abstract/misc. world in a2mt had a goddamn raocow drawing. jumphalf had one too but

not saying we should ask Absolutely raocow to make a drawing, i don't know how "in the way" that would get. im only offering suggestions, not demands. im very worried i might end up fucking over the overworld design

[Heraga]

Using my one obligatory Talkhaus log-in this year to humbly request two things:

1) I would prefer if my level was the first or penultimate (ie - before the world's castle) level of whatever world it's sandwiched into, seems to be in the Forest at the moment. Considering it's very much a "romp", I think those tend to work best in those areas with more gimmick/impressive levels in the middle. Also the difficulty is a 3, not a 4 I feel...maybe a 3.5 if you want to do halves.

2) If the Map OST isn't decided, RPG Maker XP's 4th Theme is probably the most "Collab Hack OW Music" theme ever and I would nominate that, to the point where I'm wondering if psynth based the ASMT World 3 Map on it (considering the similarities it wouldn't surprise me). The midis for all the XP Music are public anyways if ear-porting is a concern/issue. My favorite RPG Maker theme is still Sunny Village from 00/03 though. Of course the OST may be already decided, in which case only view request 1.

I'm glad this hack is getting close to completion, I hope it sets a good precedent for future Talkhaus projects.

[SAJewers]

Using my one obligatory Talkhaus log-in this year to humbly request two things:

1) I would prefer if my level was the first or penultimate (ie - before the world's castle) level of whatever world it's sandwiched into, seems to be in the Forest at the moment. Considering it's very much a "romp", I think those tend to work best in those areas with more gimmick/impressive levels in the middle. Also the difficulty is a 3, not a 4 I feel...maybe a 3.5 if you want to do halves.

2) If the Map OST isn't decided, RPG Maker XP's 4th Theme is probably the most "Collab Hack OW Music" theme ever and I would nominate that, to the point where I'm wondering if psynth based the ASMT World 3 Map on it (considering the similarities it wouldn't surprise me). The midis for all the XP Music are public anyways if ear-porting is a concern/issue. My favorite RPG Maker theme is still Sunny Village from 00/03 though. Of course the OST may be already decided, in which case only view request 1.

I'm glad this hack is getting close to completion, I hope it sets a good precedent for future Talkhaus projects.

1) done.

2)I wouldn't be surprised if, for the main OW, we end up going with multiple tracks for various spots like ASMT did. Having said that, assuming you mean this, I've earmarked it as a possibility for now.

[Heraga]

2)I wouldn't be surprised if, for the main OW, we end up going with multiple tracks for various spots like ASMT did. Having said that, assuming you mean this, I've earmarked it as a possibility for now.

That's actually the Sunny Village track I mentioned (I had that ported for my own future use, I love that one.) Theme 4 is this. Seems to be inspired too by Bottom of the Ocean from Rudra no Hihou, so it wraps back around to be pseudo-VIP like.

[KobaBeach]

2)I wouldn't be surprised if, for the main OW, we end up going with multiple tracks for various spots like ASMT did. Having said that, assuming you mean this, I've earmarked it as a possibility for now.

That's actually the Sunny Village track I mentioned (I had that ported for my own future use, I love that one.) Theme 4 is this. Seems to be inspired too by Bottom of the Ocean from Rudra no Hihou, so it wraps back around to be pseudo-VIP like.

oh my god bro i wanted it to be canyon.mid for the meme factor but you've hit me right in my rpg maker bone, which is right next to my retro pc bone i cannot. this has to be mandatory, but see if you can fit canyon.mid anywhere else

im adding this to my porting backlog next to the frog casino from thg and the bonk's revenge bonus theme

the bones are not next to eachother due to the time frame in my youth, just due to general time frame in reality. im getting more into rm only this year sort of

sorry for ghosting you for ages, i was worried about bothering u. nice dejiko avatar btw love that bitch

[PSI Ninja]

I looked at the "Worlds" tab of the master spreadsheet, and it seems like we have enough candidate levels to constitute a postgame. But if we're going the postgame route, then how should it be unlocked? For example, should all raocoins be collected, should the player beat all world-ending castles/stages, or should we simply grant access after finishing Bowser's Castle? Or maybe we can do what Production 2 did and have some kind of puzzle or riddle that the player needs to solve first. I'm wondering if anyone has any strong feelings about this yet.

[camwoodstock]

I looked at the "Worlds" tab of the master spreadsheet, and it seems like we have enough candidate levels to constitute a postgame. But if we're going the postgame route, then how should it be unlocked? For example, should all raocoins be collected, should the player beat all world-ending castles/stages, or should we simply grant access after finishing Bowser's Castle? Or maybe we can do what Production 2 did and have some kind of puzzle or riddle that the player needs to solve first. I'm wondering if anyone has any strong feelings about this yet.

it's kind of the lame answer but making the postgame available after just beating bowser's castle feels like the best option to us, mostly due to contentions ranging from "this'd just be kind of weird to set up logistically" to "Oh, this would be a nightmare".

• the raocoins option is kind of our big no-no. those haven't been too sizeable an obligation for levels before now and involving them at all would be. A very sudden change to demand of level designers.
• a puzzle is alright but you'd need like, someone to Design a puzzle to be solved to access it. and if a player ends up overthinking it/figures out the puzzle early, they could end up in the "postgame" before they're meant to. also, we do (presumably) need to now designate a level slot to said puzzle, which again, while not impossible, feels like a bit too much effort unless someone REALLY wants to make said puzzle
• having the player clear ALL castles is a bit better though it still kinda feels a bit arbitrary to us? we wouldn't complain if that ended up being the case tho, as long as it's not the raocoin option, and it'd probably be a bit easier than the puzzle.

putting the gate to the postgame after bowser's castle just overall feels like the sanest decision, since, well, it IS the POSTgame. not post-100%, not post-puzzle, not post-mostofthegame, it's "you beat the video game! here's more of it!". are we making sense? we wrote this at 2:22 AM and we're kinda hazybrained atm let us know if literally any of our point got across beyond just "making it after bowser's castle feels best"

[SAJewers]

Could make use of password blocks and give part of a password after every castle. The issue though is that that would require a level slot, and there are only 6 unclaimed slots left, one of which will need to be reserved for the Final Castle, and only 2 "Rest Area" levels have been claimed/submitted so far.

I dunno what our plans are for the Final Postgame level is, but those other 5 remaining slots should probably be left for "Rest Area" levels at this point. There are are few levels that currently have an unknown status on the sheet that may get freed up if we don't hear from them by March 29, so it may be possible, but we probably shouldn't commit to anything before we fully know.

With that in mind, it might be a good idea to get in touch with everyone who has a current level claim that hasn't submitted anything yet, to let them know there are 40 days left and make sure they'll be able to get something in on time.

[EllenHouraisan]

I dunno what our plans are for the Final Postgame level is, but those other 5 remaining slots should probably be left for "Rest Area" levels at this point.

Oh, I didn't realize we were keeping track of rest areas. My last level can probably be filed under that, just gotta slide a lifefarm in somewhere.

[Catabo]

I submit for your consideration: just put the postgame behind a secret exit after a secret exit after a secret exit, etc, with no other requirements. (Imagine the first secret exit being a straightforward path, then the next one is a meandering path, then the final one meanders so much that Demo exits the universe.) That would be funny and make the player feel like they've uncovered something special rather than just being the world 9 that comes after world 8. You'd probably want a "hey there guy this is the postgame/super secret hard world" rest stop at the beginning tho.

Alternately, lock the postgame behind a level that requires all switches pressed to be navigable? Yes, that's basically beating the game with fewer steps (you only have to get to the last switch/the gate level instead of Bowser's castle) but it's at least a more interesting requirement superficially.

In both of these cases, i know raocow will likely play the game in a "normal" order and proceed to the postgame world only after beating Bowser's castle, but "yo you can go to the secret extra world NOW if u want" would be an interesting option to present to the player. It would also let people end their LPs with Bowser's castle (you know, the "endgame" level that ends with credits), which raocow might end up choosing to do (i remember him talking in a video about how it's always awkward to have a video or two after you've already had your end boss/credits video w/ final thoughts) unless there's a level of particular finality at the end of the postgame world. Assuming the postgame world is super hard, it also lets you end the game with a relatively easier level so you finish the game with a good time instead of frustration (Bowz is gonna be a good time and not frustrating! c'mon guys i believe in us!).

[PSI Ninja]

I wanted to resurrect this thread because we're only one week away from the level submission deadline, and we need to start discussing the overworld in more depth soon. It's wild to see the spreadsheet all filled up.

Based on the conversations in the Discord, it seems like people would prefer to have an "open overworld" concept where you can go through the game in any order you want, like in A2MT or VIP 6. Initially, I wanted something more rigid like in SMWCP2, but now I think I've warmed up to the idea of having something more nonlinear. Catabo said this in the Discord:



If there's going to be an open overworld with submaps branching off of it, then you need to give the player a reason to visit the submaps. Building off of what Catabo said, how about instead of having a world-ending castle for each submap, we have the Switch Palaces at the end of each submap (Fishmarket, Forest, Cave, and Sky). Yellow Switch would go into Sky World instead of World 1, and castles with bosses could "guard" these Switch Palaces. We could repurpose "THE OBSTACLE" as the obstacle that blocks access to the final world, needing all four switches to be pressed to continue. Or maybe have it need at least one of the switches pressed, for people who want to "speedrun" the game (at the cost of being more difficult to get through this level). Would need Ellen's permission first, of course.

[Lord Ruby]

The problem with putting switch palaces at the end of worlds is that we lose out on one of the major rewards for finding secret exits or otherwise having branching paths on the overworld. Therefore, I think that implementing an "open" overworld like that would ironically just make the worlds themselves highly linear, with only a handful of shortcuts.

Instead, we can just check if castle levels have been beaten in the 7EA2 (1EA2 without SA-1) table in some kind of gateway level, whether that be a dedicated level or something we shoehorn into an existing level (as an additional secret exit or first screen that checks for castles cleared).

I'll admit I was also mostly negative toward the idea of an open overworld at first, but I suppose I've also warmed up to a bit, in an "A2MT except done right" sense.

[SAJewers]

My original thought was that you need to beat each submap to unlock the final world, and The Obstacle would gate the open OW.

From what I recall, both some ideas in my head while trying to sort all the levels as they come in and from various discussions:

• Aim for about 8 levels per submap + a rest area
• Where The Whales Come to Rest should happen after Revenge of the Sushi
• Fight The Red Switch Palace should happen after presenting gifts day
• Bad word ahead should happen before aeriel airships/sky world, and should be a mandatory level
• In ghost/castle world, the ghost levels should all be in the 1st half, and the castle levels should be in the 2nd half
• Level 105 will act as quick warp/star world-type thing
• have access to the obstacle right at the beginning
• super easy going should be the 1st proper level of the game
• idiom factory 2 should be the first postgame levl

The blue switch is currently occupying the final slot of fish world, and the green and red switches are occupying what I'd call "mid world fortress level" slots; those are subject to change (and i think at this point probably will) depending on what the final 18 levels are and if they come in. For sure Revenge of the Sushi, Castle of Spirits, Seige at Castle Wolfenstein, Spikes Do Hurt, What the House, Thwompire State Building, Crash at Craigdarroch Castle, and Prehistoric Doom Castle will slot in as either mid world fortress, or end of world castle levels.

[PSI Ninja]

The problem with putting switch palaces at the end of worlds is that we lose out on one of the major rewards for finding secret exits or otherwise having branching paths on the overworld. Therefore, I think that implementing an "open" overworld like that would ironically just make the worlds themselves highly linear, with only a handful of shortcuts.

Instead, we can just check if castle levels have been beaten in the 7EA2 (1EA2 without SA-1) table in some kind of gateway level, whether that be a dedicated level or something we shoehorn into an existing level (as an additional secret exit or first screen that checks for castles cleared).

I'll admit I was also mostly negative toward the idea of an open overworld at first, but I suppose I've also warmed up to a bit, in an "A2MT except done right" sense.

My original thought was that you need to beat each submap to unlock the final world, and The Obstacle would gate the open OW.

I understand the point about having Switch Palaces as rewards rather than being requirements. Needing to beat all castles/submaps to access the final world sounds like a more logical idea, but this leads to a "Banjo-Kazooie" situation where the player is expected to clear most of the content to beat the game. So now I'm wondering if we should even bother to block access to the final world in such a manner. I forgot how VIP 6 handled this with its own open overworld, and how it gave its submaps actual purpose. I know that A2MT used the hub and spoke design with submaps containing Switch Palaces at the endpoints, but it's similar to what I suggested in my previous post.

My issue with having "THE OBSTACLE" gate the open overworld is that it forces the player to beat the Yellow Switch Palace at the start of the game, which would render the Yellow Switch Blocks in later levels pointless (i.e., they'll always end up being activated). Because of this, I think it would make more sense to have "THE OBSTACLE" placed further in the game. Or alternatively, have two paths leading out of the first world, with "THE OBSTACLE" being at the end of one of those paths.

[Lord Ruby]

The problem with putting switch palaces at the end of worlds is that we lose out on one of the major rewards for finding secret exits or otherwise having branching paths on the overworld. Therefore, I think that implementing an "open" overworld like that would ironically just make the worlds themselves highly linear, with only a handful of shortcuts.

Instead, we can just check if castle levels have been beaten in the 7EA2 (1EA2 without SA-1) table in some kind of gateway level, whether that be a dedicated level or something we shoehorn into an existing level (as an additional secret exit or first screen that checks for castles cleared).

I'll admit I was also mostly negative toward the idea of an open overworld at first, but I suppose I've also warmed up to a bit, in an "A2MT except done right" sense.

I understand the point about having Switch Palaces as rewards rather than being requirements. Needing to beat all castles/submaps to access the final world sounds like a more logical idea, but this leads to a "Banjo-Kazooie" situation where the player is expected to clear most of the content to beat the game. So now I'm wondering if we should even bother to block access to the final world in such a manner. I forgot how VIP 6 handled this with its own open overworld, and how it gave its submaps actual purpose. I know that A2MT used the hub and spoke design with submaps containing Switch Palaces at the endpoints, but it's similar to what I suggested in my previous post.

Hm... If we do a dedicated level for the gateway (but we can't count on that for now, given that all slots are claimed right now), we could do a gradual gimmick such as "the wind becomes weaker with every castle you clear", "the tide is higher per castle cleared", "layer 2 moves more", or the like, where more cleared castles makes the level go from ridiculously tight to a fair challenge.

Alternatively, I suppose we could have a hard "clear all castles" gate for the main entrance to the final world, while also hiding a back door into it behind the most cryptic secret exit in the game. Kind of like how SMW hides the first Star Road behind a sequence of three secret exits, the with the third being unmarked (Donut Secret House).

[SAJewers]

The problem with putting switch palaces at the end of worlds is that we lose out on one of the major rewards for finding secret exits or otherwise having branching paths on the overworld. Therefore, I think that implementing an "open" overworld like that would ironically just make the worlds themselves highly linear, with only a handful of shortcuts.

Instead, we can just check if castle levels have been beaten in the 7EA2 (1EA2 without SA-1) table in some kind of gateway level, whether that be a dedicated level or something we shoehorn into an existing level (as an additional secret exit or first screen that checks for castles cleared).

I'll admit I was also mostly negative toward the idea of an open overworld at first, but I suppose I've also warmed up to a bit, in an "A2MT except done right" sense.

My original thought was that you need to beat each submap to unlock the final world, and The Obstacle would gate the open OW.

I understand the point about having Switch Palaces as rewards rather than being requirements. Needing to beat all castles/submaps to access the final world sounds like a more logical idea, but this leads to a "Banjo-Kazooie" situation where the player is expected to clear most of the content to beat the game. So now I'm wondering if we should even bother to block access to the final world in such a manner. I forgot how VIP 6 handled this with its own open overworld, and how it gave its submaps actual purpose. I know that A2MT used the hub and spoke design with submaps containing Switch Palaces at the endpoints, but it's similar to what I suggested in my previous post.

My issue with having "THE OBSTACLE" gate the open overworld is that it forces the player to beat the Yellow Switch Palace at the start of the game, which would render the Yellow Switch Blocks in later levels pointless (i.e., they'll always end up being activated). Because of this, I think it would make more sense to have "THE OBSTACLE" placed further in the game. Or alternatively, have two paths leading out of the first world, with "THE OBSTACLE" being at the end of one of those paths.

The way VIP6 did it is that beating each castle from world 1-5 unlocks more of what is essentially a bridge to world 6, reaching the bridge area requires taking a secret exit in a prior level, and the bridge is the only way to reach world 6. That was largely what I was thinking anyway, except VIP6 allows you to skip the world 1 castle. It's essentially the same as what A2MT was going to do, except with OW events instead of a level; You can skip around levels and do things in the order you want, but you're gonna have to beat a good chunk of the levels to reach the end.

In order for the joke in THE OBSTACLE to land the best, I feel like it needs to show up very early in the game. I do see your point though. I think we need to tread carefully where we place the level in the OW, because I'm not sure now if gating a chunk of the open OW behind it makes sense, but I don't want to have it unlock a level that can be easily unlocked earlier in the game through another level. I almost think we have to tie it in to Use of a Goal Posts, where you can either puzzle your way through that secret exit, or find the yellow switch.

The problem with putting switch palaces at the end of worlds is that we lose out on one of the major rewards for finding secret exits or otherwise having branching paths on the overworld. Therefore, I think that implementing an "open" overworld like that would ironically just make the worlds themselves highly linear, with only a handful of shortcuts.

Instead, we can just check if castle levels have been beaten in the 7EA2 (1EA2 without SA-1) table in some kind of gateway level, whether that be a dedicated level or something we shoehorn into an existing level (as an additional secret exit or first screen that checks for castles cleared).

I'll admit I was also mostly negative toward the idea of an open overworld at first, but I suppose I've also warmed up to a bit, in an "A2MT except done right" sense.

I understand the point about having Switch Palaces as rewards rather than being requirements. Needing to beat all castles/submaps to access the final world sounds like a more logical idea, but this leads to a "Banjo-Kazooie" situation where the player is expected to clear most of the content to beat the game. So now I'm wondering if we should even bother to block access to the final world in such a manner. I forgot how VIP 6 handled this with its own open overworld, and how it gave its submaps actual purpose. I know that A2MT used the hub and spoke design with submaps containing Switch Palaces at the endpoints, but it's similar to what I suggested in my previous post.

Hm... If we do a dedicated level for the gateway (but we can't count on that for now, given that all slots are claimed right now), we could do a gradual gimmick such as "the wind becomes weaker with every castle you clear", "the tide is higher per castle cleared", "layer 2 moves more", or the like, where more cleared castles makes the level go from ridiculously tight to a fair challenge.

Alternatively, I suppose we could have a hard "clear all castles" gate for the main entrance to the final world, while also hiding a back door into it behind the most cryptic secret exit in the game. Kind of like how SMW hides the first Star Road behind a sequence of three secret exits, the with the third being unmarked (Donut Secret House).

I don't expect all remaining unsubmitted levels to actually get submitted (especially the 4 unknown levels). We could do something with Event-Dependent Blocks, though I feel like any empty slots after the 29th should be prioritized towards rest areas rather than a gate level.

As for "cryptic" secret exits, I don't think there is one. A shortcut to the final world that allows skipping most of the levels I don't think works.

[PSI Ninja]

The way VIP6 did it is that beating each castle from world 1-5 unlocks more of what is essentially a bridge to world 6, reaching the bridge area requires taking a secret exit in a prior level, and the bridge is the only way to reach world 6. That was largely what I was thinking anyway, except VIP6 allows you to skip the world 1 castle. It's essentially the same as what A2MT was going to do, except with OW events instead of a level; You can skip around levels and do things in the order you want, but you're gonna have to beat a good chunk of the levels to reach the end.

I see. Now I'm starting to think that the "openness" of the overworlds in A2MT and VIP 6 are only presenting an illusion of choice, because you still have to beat nearly all of the levels to reach the final world, anyway. Not sure how many of you share that concern of mine, but personally, I've always appreciated hacks that give the player more options to get to the end. That being said:

Hm... If we do a dedicated level for the gateway (but we can't count on that for now, given that all slots are claimed right now), we could do a gradual gimmick such as "the wind becomes weaker with every castle you clear", "the tide is higher per castle cleared", "layer 2 moves more", or the like, where more cleared castles makes the level go from ridiculously tight to a fair challenge.

I like this idea, actually. It reminds me of Yooka-Laylee and the Impossible Lair where you can access the final level at any point in the game, but completing more of the base game makes the final level more manageable. Expanding on your idea, maybe we can have the gateway level be affected by various "curses", where there's darkness/low lighting, reversed controls, a Small Demo hard-filter, a very low time limit, etc. And every time you beat a world-ending castle, it lifts one of these curses (can easily be done via UberASM flags). I do have a reserved level slot that I can give up (Level 12E) in case we go through with the gateway idea.

In order for the joke in THE OBSTACLE to land the best, I feel like it needs to show up very early in the game. I do see your point though. I think we need to tread carefully where we place the level in the OW, because I'm not sure now if gating a chunk of the open OW behind it makes sense, but I don't want to have it unlock a level that can be easily unlocked earlier in the game through another level. I almost think we have to tie it in to Use of a Goal Posts, where you can either puzzle your way through that secret exit, or find the yellow switch.

"THE OBSTACLE" is an interesting case, because it's the only level in the game whose only exit is hard-gated. However, it seems like your preference is that the level should also be unskippable? With these constraints, I feel like it's not possible to place it in the early game, unless it has another exit. But, I fear that would also diminish the joke. So yeah, I don't know the ideal way to handle this one yet.

[SAJewers]

Hm... If we do a dedicated level for the gateway (but we can't count on that for now, given that all slots are claimed right now), we could do a gradual gimmick such as "the wind becomes weaker with every castle you clear", "the tide is higher per castle cleared", "layer 2 moves more", or the like, where more cleared castles makes the level go from ridiculously tight to a fair challenge.

I like this idea, actually. It reminds me of Yooka-Laylee and the Impossible Lair where you can access the final level at any point in the game, but completing more of the base game makes the final level more manageable. Expanding on your idea, maybe we can have the gateway level be affected by various "curses", where there's darkness/low lighting, reversed controls, a Small Demo hard-filter, a very low time limit, etc. And every time you beat a world-ending castle, it lifts one of these curses (can easily be done via UberASM flags). I do have a reserved level slot that I can give up (Level 12E) in case we go through with the gateway idea.

I feel like it might be a lot simpler if we just did the inverse of this level with those event blocks i linked to skip either the entire level or sections of the level

In order for the joke in THE OBSTACLE to land the best, I feel like it needs to show up very early in the game. I do see your point though. I think we need to tread carefully where we place the level in the OW, because I'm not sure now if gating a chunk of the open OW behind it makes sense, but I don't want to have it unlock a level that can be easily unlocked earlier in the game through another level. I almost think we have to tie it in to Use of a Goal Posts, where you can either puzzle your way through that secret exit, or find the yellow switch.

"THE OBSTACLE" is an interesting case, because it's the only level in the game whose only exit is hard-gated. However, it seems like your preference is that the level should also be unskippable? With these constraints, I feel like it's not possible to place it in the early game, unless it has another exit. But, I fear that would also diminish the joke. So yeah, I don't know the ideal way to handle this one yet.

It's not that I don't want the player to skip it, my concern is that if it leads to a level that can be accessed by beating some other level, and it takes a while for the player to reach the yellow switch palace, then it may disincentivize the player from going back if they can just beat the other level much earlier on. THE OBSTACLE probably shouldn't gate off part of the game, but I don't want it feel pointless because the yellow switch is halfway in the ow and you can just beat valley of wheat or something to unlock the same level.

Basically if we're gonna give the player options, the options should be roughly equal. Hope that makes sense.

[Lord Ruby]

Hm... If we do a dedicated level for the gateway (but we can't count on that for now, given that all slots are claimed right now), we could do a gradual gimmick such as "the wind becomes weaker with every castle you clear", "the tide is higher per castle cleared", "layer 2 moves more", or the like, where more cleared castles makes the level go from ridiculously tight to a fair challenge.

I like this idea, actually. It reminds me of Yooka-Laylee and the Impossible Lair where you can access the final level at any point in the game, but completing more of the base game makes the final level more manageable. Expanding on your idea, maybe we can have the gateway level be affected by various "curses", where there's darkness/low lighting, reversed controls, a Small Demo hard-filter, a very low time limit, etc. And every time you beat a world-ending castle, it lifts one of these curses (can easily be done via UberASM flags). I do have a reserved level slot that I can give up (Level 12E) in case we go through with the gateway idea.

I feel like it might be a lot simpler if we just did the inverse of this level with those event blocks i linked to skip either the entire level or sections of the level

Skipping feels a bit weird because then it's like your reward for beating castles is less level to play. That's kind of the tricky thing with "go to the end early" setups. On the one hand, you want to incentivize beating all the castles, on the other, you wouldn't want to give the player the option of making themselves miserable by making the brute-force option tedious or otherwise bad. There's probably a balance to be found somewhere, though.

Regardless, I have no clear idea myself, nor the skill to make such a dynamic challenge, so I'll just leave a disclaimer that I wouldn't be capable of making a gateway level myself, despite airing the idea.

In order for the joke in THE OBSTACLE to land the best, I feel like it needs to show up very early in the game. I do see your point though. I think we need to tread carefully where we place the level in the OW, because I'm not sure now if gating a chunk of the open OW behind it makes sense, but I don't want to have it unlock a level that can be easily unlocked earlier in the game through another level. I almost think we have to tie it in to Use of a Goal Posts, where you can either puzzle your way through that secret exit, or find the yellow switch.

"THE OBSTACLE" is an interesting case, because it's the only level in the game whose only exit is hard-gated. However, it seems like your preference is that the level should also be unskippable? With these constraints, I feel like it's not possible to place it in the early game, unless it has another exit. But, I fear that would also diminish the joke. So yeah, I don't know the ideal way to handle this one yet.

It's not that I don't want the player to skip it, my concern is that if it leads to a level that can be accessed by beating some other level, and it takes a while for the player to reach the yellow switch palace, then it may disincentivize the player from going back if they can just beat the other level much earlier on. THE OBSTACLE probably shouldn't gate off part of the game, but I don't want it feel pointless because the yellow switch is halfway in the ow and you can just beat valley of wheat or something to unlock the same level.

Basically if we're gonna give the player options, the options should be roughly equal. Hope that makes sense.

Well, then we could just set up a section of the overworld with two paths, like, beating THE OBSTACLE lets you go to levels 1-2-3-4, while if you take the other path, you get A-B-3-4, missing out on levels 1 and 2.

Speaking of which, I see we don't have very many levels with multiple exits assigned to the open OW, while there are many worlds with at least three such levels - we might need to move some secret exit levels to the open OW to set up branching paths where they make the most sense.

[SAJewers]

Regardless, I have no clear idea myself, nor the skill to make such a dynamic challenge, so I'll just leave a disclaimer that I wouldn't be capable of making a gateway level myself, despite airing the idea.

I have no desire to make that sort of level either, so it may be something we just have to drop.

Well, then we could just set up a section of the overworld with two paths, like, beating THE OBSTACLE lets you go to levels 1-2-3-4, while if you take the other path, you get A-B-3-4, missing out on levels 1 and 2.

That doesn't solve the problem though. Why wait to do 1-2, when you can just do A-B now? There's still no incentive to go back and beat THE OBSTACLE because you can just take the other path to get there. If we don't want to gate some part of the game behind finding the yellow switch, then there needs to a reason for the player to wait and come back to beat THE OBSTACLE that's not someone going for all exits, and I don't know what that solution would be that's not simply making the other pathway a complete PITA to get through.

Speaking of which, I see we don't have very many levels with multiple exits assigned to the open OW, while there are many worlds with at least three such levels - we might need to move some secret exit levels to the open OW to set up branching paths where they make the most sense.

Yeah, it's something I've noticed too. The problem is, I can't really move red levels out into the main OW without first having a level I can move in, and most of the levels currently in the main OW are things that simply don't fit in a submap (plus I've now trying to find a level that can end World 1, and fill the empty slots in The Fishmarket and Sky World).

If you're able to make the case for a level swap, then post it.

EDIT: I should note that I'm really hoping that some of the levels that haven't been posted yet can slot into those subworlds, so I can move red levels out into the main OW, but we kinda need to see the level first.

[EllenHouraisan]

Oh no, I created problems.

Here's a suggestion: how about having THE OBSTACLE unlock a star warp? I'm not completely sure if there are any plans for a star world, but at any rate, if we use OW stars for shortcuts around the map, that could be one way of making it so that the level doesn't gate away any parts of the overworld, while offering something substantial for clearing it.

[Catabo]

Yeah, it's something I've noticed too. The problem is, I can't really move red levels out into the main OW without first having a level I can move in, and most of the levels currently in the main OW are things that simply don't fit in a submap (plus I've now trying to find a level that can end World 1, and fill the empty slots in The Fishmarket and Sky World).

EDIT: I should note that I'm really hoping that some of the levels that haven't been posted yet can slot into those subworlds, so I can move red levels out into the main OW, but we kinda need to see the level first.

My fourth level is almost done and has two exits, but i've been thinking my fifth and final maybe wants to be a three-exit-er. That wouldn't be stealing the thunder of Use of a Goal Posts, would it? The three-exit tech is in the game so i want to use it, but it was added for that specific level in the first place. I'd make the level hard, but even my "hard" levels tend to be easy so i reckon it will appear first. Could be a "breather" level i guess?

Worst comes to worst, you could just have a one-exit level unlock two paths every now and then? I understand this breaks the logic of yellow=1 path and red=2 paths, but i mean... vanilla SMW starts you at a choice between paths... (edit: just occurred to me, the proper solution to this is having the yellow level's single exit lead to a Yoshi's House/laundromat that already has branching paths going from it. maybe i'll just make one of those!)

[SAJewers]

Oh no, I created problems.

Here's a suggestion: how about having THE OBSTACLE unlock a star warp? I'm not completely sure if there are any plans for a star world, but at any rate, if we use OW stars for shortcuts around the map, that could be one way of making it so that the level doesn't gate away any parts of the overworld, while offering something substantial for clearing it.

The current plan AFAIK is that I'm making a level to do quick warping between areas. Basically a like star world, but without having to take up a subworld or stuffing it in a corner of the main OW. I've been meaning to work on it for a few days now but I keep getting sidetracked .

My fourth level is almost done and has two exits, but i've been thinking my fifth and final maybe wants to be a three-exit-er. That wouldn't be stealing the thunder of Use of a Goal Posts, would it? The three-exit tech is in the game so i want to use it, but it was added for that specific level in the first place. I'd make the level hard, but even my "hard" levels tend to be easy so i reckon it will appear first. Could be a "breather" level i guess?

I say make it, no one can stop you.

[PSI Ninja]

Speaking of which, I see we don't have very many levels with multiple exits assigned to the open OW, while there are many worlds with at least three such levels - we might need to move some secret exit levels to the open OW to set up branching paths where they make the most sense.

My take is that for submaps, we should aim to have at most two levels that have secret exits. One of these levels should be at or near the start of the world, to offer a choice of paths early on. The secret exit path should be shorter than the normal exit path, and perhaps contain the harder levels, too. The other two-exit level can have its secret lead to a Rest Area, a Switch Palace, or a pipe shortcut to another world (not sure how useful the latter would be if we do an open overworld, though). These rewards can be on the normal path, leading to a tradeoff where you can take the secret path for speed, but at the cost of not activating Switch Blocks or having a convenient life farm. Having more than two secret exit levels runs the risk of having extraneous paths, which would be wasteful.

Another thing to think about: worlds shouldn't just be confined to the submaps. The main overworld can be divided into themes too, and maybe even have castles with bosses (if there are too many to squeeze into the submaps). For example, it looks like we'll have a bunch of snow/ice levels to sort out. Maybe the main overworld can have a small section for these snowy-themed levels.

Yeah, it's something I've noticed too. The problem is, I can't really move red levels out into the main OW without first having a level I can move in, and most of the levels currently in the main OW are things that simply don't fit in a submap (plus I've now trying to find a level that can end World 1, and fill the empty slots in The Fishmarket and Sky World).

If you're able to make the case for a level swap, then post it.

EDIT: I should note that I'm really hoping that some of the levels that haven't been posted yet can slot into those subworlds, so I can move red levels out into the main OW, but we kinda need to see the level first.

Here are some of my suggestions for level placements:

• Fungus Forest Flow could go into World 1, because of its currently assigned low difficulty. It would also offer a branching path early on. The Feeling of a Freshman could also go into the first world, being rated at a 2/5.
• Sweet Paradise seems like it would fit better in sky world rather than the Fishmarket. A Dream of Green Apples could go in its place, since it has a substantial water section.
• Since Lady Crithania is currently a world-ending level, it could lead from the Fishmarket directly to watch out! bad word ahead on the main overworld. This transition would be nice because the ship level ends at an iceberg, and tangy's level uses the same aesthetics.
• If we decide to put snow-themed levels together on the main overworld as described above, then Where The Whales Come To Rest could be moved out of the Fishmarket, reducing the number of two-exit levels in that submap. Bumpty's level could then come after tangy's, while still coming after Revenge of the Sushi.
• PUNT RETURN should probably be situated later in the game, due to how trivial it is to farm many lives.
• I'm working on a sky-themed level that will have a boss, although the boss probably won't be finished by next week's deadline. Therefore, Level D could become the world-ending castle for sky world, and Spikes do hurt (sometimes) can be moved somewhere else, since it's not sky-themed, anyway.
• To reduce the number of two-exit levels in sky world, I'd move either or both of Warning! It's a Red Radish Morning and Aileron Moonbounce into the main overworld, since they seem less sky-themed than other levels in that world.
• Moon Palace should go into sky world instead of the city, because it would fit the theme better.
• I disagree that my level, Coasting Redwoods, is postgame difficulty. Compared to other levels, I feel it's more of a 4/5. That being said, I think it would fit better in the forest submap, or even the final world if it's still considered to be too hard.