World Map Organization - Public side
Re: World Map Organization - Public side
I reckon we're not really doing sketches quite yet but I was bored during my break so I just thought screw it.
Anyway here's a pitch I scribbled up for the world 1 submap.
(The blank spot would probably just be a warp spot or something)
Anyway here's a pitch I scribbled up for the world 1 submap.
(The blank spot would probably just be a warp spot or something)
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Re: World Map Organization - Public side
my brother in christ this owns
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Re: World Map Organization - Public side
Yeah, I feel like we really need to first figure where secret exits will lead to before we start sketching out.
Having said that, I guess since we kinda already know what Forest World (we really need to figure out names asap) and The Fishmarket, I did a quick mockup in lunarmagic. Again, no idea on secret exits; we really need to get that done.
Having said that, I guess since we kinda already know what Forest World (we really need to figure out names asap) and The Fishmarket, I did a quick mockup in lunarmagic. Again, no idea on secret exits; we really need to get that done.
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From the looks of those submaps, I'm guessing that Level 105 ("Rachel's Rebate Rotorcraft") is going to be like "Funky's Flights" from DKC and DKC2? If so, those warps would need to be unlocked on a per-world basis, but it shouldn't be too hard to figure out.
To iterate on your Fishmarket design, I'd put 12D ("watch out! bad word ahead") right after 11C ("Lady Crithania"), since 11C ends at an iceberg, and 12D takes place on an iceberg. Plus, 12D has an exit, so making it lead to 12F ("Where The Whales Come To Rest") is a good way to account for that. Then, I would have the secret exit of 16 ("Cryotranquility") lead to the Blue Switch Palace on the outside overworld or something. This way, it unlocks a bit more of a meaningful reward.
Semi-serious naming suggestions: call forest world "Sherbrooke Forest", and when it's completely deforested, call it "Sherbrooke Wasteland". Urban/mountain world could be "Neo Montreal" or something (since Montreal is named for a mountain). If we can have the world names show up on the overworld too, that would be fun.
To iterate on your Fishmarket design, I'd put 12D ("watch out! bad word ahead") right after 11C ("Lady Crithania"), since 11C ends at an iceberg, and 12D takes place on an iceberg. Plus, 12D has an exit, so making it lead to 12F ("Where The Whales Come To Rest") is a good way to account for that. Then, I would have the secret exit of 16 ("Cryotranquility") lead to the Blue Switch Palace on the outside overworld or something. This way, it unlocks a bit more of a meaningful reward.
Semi-serious naming suggestions: call forest world "Sherbrooke Forest", and when it's completely deforested, call it "Sherbrooke Wasteland". Urban/mountain world could be "Neo Montreal" or something (since Montreal is named for a mountain). If we can have the world names show up on the overworld too, that would be fun.
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Re: World Map Organization - Public side
asmt and a2mt did not have names and i think asmbxt also only had castle room descriptors but i once separated the level difficulty ranks based on their levels' theme and naming them after canadian provinces which honestly i didn't know much of, but i was watching the super mario omega lp at the time where raocow did the same thing. i guess we can do that? he also added china so feel free to add like a whole ass country or whatever
the yukon part unlocked hidden core memories of when i used to watch yvon of the yukon as a kid and it was an alright show (defrosted for u and for me)
*family guy roach man voice* good... good...PSI Ninja wrote: ↑1 year ago Semi-serious naming suggestions: call forest world "Sherbrooke Forest", and when it's completely deforested, call it "Sherbrooke Wasteland". Urban/mountain world could be "Neo Montreal" or something (since Montreal is named for a mountain). If we can have the world names show up on the overworld too, that would be fun.
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Re: World Map Organization - Public side
Legit was seriously considering using the DKC funky music for it, but it seemed too on the nose. They definitely should be unlocked on a per-world basis, but I wasn't sure if it should be unlocked by unlocking access to the submap, or beating the 1st level of the submap; unlocking via a secret exit doesn't seems like a good option with only 2/3 per.
Yeah, I wasn't sure on how to deal with Cryotranquility's secret exit. That is an interesting idea thoughPSI Ninja wrote: ↑1 year ago To iterate on your Fishmarket design, I'd put 12D ("watch out! bad word ahead") right after 11C ("Lady Crithania"), since 11C ends at an iceberg, and 12D takes place on an iceberg. Plus, 12D has an exit, so making it lead to 12F ("Where The Whales Come To Rest") is a good way to account for that. Then, I would have the secret exit of 16 ("Cryotranquility") lead to the Blue Switch Palace on the outside overworld or something. This way, it unlocks a bit more of a meaningful reward.
It'd be nice, but i dunno how possible it is. Worst case, it'll in the quickwarp level.
Yeah, ASMBXT had names based on descriptions of what that hub looked like, since players largely got to pick which world their levels appeared in (though for difficulty reason, a few changes were made). A2XT had named worlds though, which is probably what's in my head when thinking of this.KobaBeach wrote: ↑1 year agoasmt and a2mt did not have names and i think asmbxt also only had castle room descriptors but i once separated the level difficulty ranks based on their levels' theme and naming them after canadian provinces which honestly i didn't know much of, but i was watching the super mario omega lp at the time where raocow did the same thing. i guess we can do that? he also added china so feel free to add like a whole ass country or whatever
Also, I did consider at one point suggesting we name the Mountain World Banff, Alberta
Re: World Map Organization - Public side
Let's see, some brainstormed name ideas:
World 1: Verdigris Hill Zone, France, Plateau de l'Éveil (referencing the Canadian French name for BotW's starting area).
Forest: The Forest/De Forest (with name change), Da Forest (ambiguous misspelling between the and de-). I really like "The Lost Woods", though.
Sky/Space: Noctilucent (note: a cloud phenomenon), Overcast Ocean, Sunset Picturesque.
Urban/Mountain: Boulder Jungle, Polylith, The Skyline*.
Final: Catspace.
I didn't come up with any ideas for the cave or the postgame though.
Also, I think if we really wanna drive home the fishmarket joke, we should decorate that world's unreachable areas with fields of fake level dots.
*This name actually inspired me to draft a map for the world:
World 1: Verdigris Hill Zone, France, Plateau de l'Éveil (referencing the Canadian French name for BotW's starting area).
Forest: The Forest/De Forest (with name change), Da Forest (ambiguous misspelling between the and de-). I really like "The Lost Woods", though.
Sky/Space: Noctilucent (note: a cloud phenomenon), Overcast Ocean, Sunset Picturesque.
Urban/Mountain: Boulder Jungle, Polylith, The Skyline*.
Final: Catspace.
I didn't come up with any ideas for the cave or the postgame though.
Also, I think if we really wanna drive home the fishmarket joke, we should decorate that world's unreachable areas with fields of fake level dots.
*This name actually inspired me to draft a map for the world:
To clarify, 126's normal exit serpentines up to 109, which then goes to 1C.
a
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Re: World Map Organization - Public side
Yes, entirely filled with random level dots that disappear to make room for pathways
Re: World Map Organization - Public side
This is genuinely hilarious to me
Also, I was able to map out my world 1 design from yesterday in LM, so here's what it might look like in game.
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Re: World Map Organization - Public side
Ah, I knew I could find something if I searched SMWC long and hard enough: https://smwc.me/1507898
Re: World Map Organization - Public side
Riffing on France, how about "the Piedmont"? The Piedmont is a region adjacent-ish to France and the terrain of the world can also be called piedmont-like. Might call for it to be located adjacent to the mountain world geographically?
I submit that the fake dots in the Fishmarket should (within palette limitations) be various colours other than yellow/red/green. Assuming the player has seen at least one of the three-exit levels and experienced the novelty of a green level dot, it would be a fun gag for the game to visually say "you thought a green dot was novel?! oh yeah?!?! well what about purple dots?!?! orange dots?!?!?! grey dots?!?!?!?! etc".
For-a-Limited-Time-Only Forest! (because raocow's currently playing Paper Mario and the Forever Forest in Paper Mario is just another 迷いの森/lost woods in Japanese)
Not to be confused with the But Wait, There's More Forest, which keeps growing bit by bit every time you think you're going to be out of the woods.
Montfaux (there's a Mont Real, so what about the Mont Fake?)
Banff is a fun place name and i always do a mental double take whenever my family talks about wanting to visit it. It feels like it would be a fun word to hear raocow shout.SAJewers wrote: ↑1 year agoAlso, I did consider at one point suggesting we name the Mountain World Banff, Alberta
I love the concept, but i don't think the "1, 2, 3, etc" signs next to castles should be used if the player is going to be able to tackle worlds in whatever order they want. I'm curious to see which order cow will play them in and i don't want the game to decide for him with those signs.
(if the player is not allowed to tackle worlds in whatever order and there's just the open OW in the middle, ignore this)
It would be fun to have a tree next to Green Apples with a green apple on it instead of just being a regular tree.
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Re: World Map Organization - Public side
Shoot, I didn't even think about that. Yeah, if we're going open ended there's definitely no reason for numbered signs since there's no proper world order beyond the initial first world. I'll remove it.Catabo wrote: ↑11 months ago I love the concept, but i don't think the "1, 2, 3, etc" signs next to castles should be used if the player is going to be able to tackle worlds in whatever order they want. I'm curious to see which order cow will play them in and i don't want the game to decide for him with those signs.
(if the player is not allowed to tackle worlds in whatever order and there's just the open OW in the middle, ignore this)
Looking at the map again there's a couple of funky perspective things, mainly in the bottom left corner, which I did to try to shoehorn the big hill there (couldn't have it against the wall since there's no hill graphics with the wall color behind it). Might just remove that and replace it with some trees instead so that I can adjust the perspective to make more sense.
Re: World Map Organization - Public side
Thinking of Luckwaive's concept as a piedmont got the creative juices flowing!
Pretend the black hole for abstract world is more centrally located so the rainbow path can get sucked into it too. I only thought of "waterfall creating a rainbow, which then creates a path to get into the sky world" after drawing everything else. OW would probably also be more central and smushing world 1/urban-mountains to the periphery a bit. The river could additionally be widened and have the fishmarket sitting in the middle of it (sub-map babey!!!!!) rather than off to the side in the sea. I additionally² had plans for more inter-world connections like the mountain chasm becoming the cave world, but i'm sure those will reveal themselves organically through level exits needing to lead to interesting places.Honestly, it could be a fun gag to just have the "1" sign and then none of the others. I'm just not sure how to communicate that it's a gag and not the map designer giving up.
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Re: World Map Organization - Public side
yo why the fuck are y'all so good at this
keep it up but be careful to be able to fit it in the jank constraints of super mario's worlds
keep it up but be careful to be able to fit it in the jank constraints of super mario's worlds
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Re: World Map Organization - Public side
Question: for the switch palaces, should they be like in SMW where it doesn't lead to anything at all, or should they be like any other level and have another level connecting after it?
Similarly, Lady Crithania and Aerial Airships should actual ships for level spots.
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I think the Switch Palaces shouldn't lead to anything at all. Just have them be optional rewards and tease their locations on the main overworld, where you have to go through a submap to unlock a secret path to it.
Conversely, how about the Rest Areas? Some of them have actual exits (e.g., "Tim Hortons" and "PUNT RETURN"), so presumably they should lead somewhere? That's what I was thinking for "watch out! bad word ahead", at least.
Maybe have "Lady Crithania" be a regular ship before beating it, and it becomes a wrecked ship afterwards.
Anyway, it's cool to see all of the sketches and designs so far, though we still need to agree on which worlds will be in the submaps. We only have six submaps to work with, and all the remaining worlds will need to be on the main map.
Re: World Map Organization - Public side
Pretty nice layout!Catabo wrote: ↑11 months ago Thinking of Luckwaive's concept as a piedmont got the creative juices flowing! Pretend the black hole for abstract world is more centrally located so the rainbow path can get sucked into it too. I only thought of "waterfall creating a rainbow, which then creates a path to get into the sky world" after drawing everything else. OW would probably also be more central and smushing world 1/urban-mountains to the periphery a bit. The river could additionally be widened and have the fishmarket sitting in the middle of it (sub-map babey!!!!!) rather than off to the side in the sea. I additionally² had plans for more inter-world connections like the mountain chasm becoming the cave world, but i'm sure those will reveal themselves organically through level exits needing to lead to interesting places.
I really like the concept of the waterfall and rainbow leading up to the sky world. I suppose I have quite a bit to say so this will be kind of a long post.
Considering the player heads downwards from the castle in W1, I envisioned that it would lead the player out to the top section of the open OW. Maybe in the top left corner, perhaps? I also think placing it here instead might make it easier to resolve a potential issue with use of a goal post (first level of the open OW after W1), which I had a potential solution to, but that's something I'll discuss in another post altogether. That might not really matter though, as long as it's placed underneath W1.
Anyway, if we go this route then it might make sense for world 1 and cave world to essentially swap places on this layout. Doing this would also make it easier for urban mountain to feed downwards into the cave map as well. That being said, you don't seem to have an ocean up there, maybe we can just situation the world 1 island in a lake type of deal instead of the ocean or something? The waterfall and rainbow can simply fall from a separate structure to the right of world 1, I guess.
Another thing to keep in mind is that we only have 6 submaps to use. World 1, Fishmarket, Forest, and Urban Mountain are already confirmed to be using submaps I believe. Postgame will probably be on the open OW somewhere. That leaves two more available submaps, with cave, sky, and abstract/final worlds left. One of these worlds needs to be integrated into the overworld instead. The best candidate would maybe be sky, perhaps we can have clouds peaking from the top right of the map that are accessible from the rainbow? This would put the portal for the abstract world on the ow as well, which would lead to its submap once unlocked / opened up.
What if we gave every world a sign next to the castle, but only world 1 had the standard number on it? Every other sign could be some sort of gag or joke. I don't have any specific ideas though, so meh.
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Re: World Map Organization - Public side
That's a good point, though I just updated PUNT RETURN to replace the goal with a side exit (and a block to change music), so both that and Emerald Winston Bar and Restaurant would need to be updated to have some sort of exit. Maybe i'll look into that.
We also need to figure out what order the levels should be in in the Open OW as well, and what secret exits lead to for both the Open OW and submaps.
Re: World Map Organization - Public side
Yeah, i was intentionally vague on what would have a submap because i wasn't sure if we had a list of worlds confirmed to use them yet. These are all good takes and i'll incorporate them if i try again!
I really want to suggest The Castle of Serious Business having a "NO FUN ALLOWED" sign, but i know that wouldn't fit on the overworld graphic... Maybe make it illegible in the overworld and then show it close-up in the no-Yoshi intro?
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Re: World Map Organization - Public side
We could give all the other signs a 2, the final world a 3, and possibly a 4 for the postgame. Or we could just give each of the main worlds all five signs between 2 and 6, cluttering up every map.Luckwaive wrote: ↑11 months agoWhat if we gave every world a sign next to the castle, but only world 1 had the standard number on it? Every other sign could be some sort of gag or joke. I don't have any specific ideas though, so meh.
---
On another topic, I remember some people mentioned ideas about accessing the postgame, but said they'd share them later. How about now...? I had an idea where the final level would have multiple entrances* which grant access to somewhat different sublevel pathways, one of which is a "reverse back door" of sorts, which has a hidden secret exit that leads to the postgame.
*Even if we run out of level slots, some asm should be able to detect which entrance the player used depending on some overworld addresses like 7F17-7F1E (1F17-1F1E, player positions on the overworld).
a
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Re: World Map Organization - Public side
dang I wish I had saved it but I had made up some small icons for use in the quickwarp thingy, but then scrapped it when I found that ubersam that did it much better than the block warp setup I was using.
EDIT: Wanna get back to very much pressing need to sort out the main overworld: the first level of the main overworld (after beating castle wolfenstein) should probably be one with a secret exit. We have 8 levels with a secret exit (plus 2 with 2 secret exits), so I dunno if we want to have most of them near the front or not.
EDIT: Wanna get back to very much pressing need to sort out the main overworld: the first level of the main overworld (after beating castle wolfenstein) should probably be one with a secret exit. We have 8 levels with a secret exit (plus 2 with 2 secret exits), so I dunno if we want to have most of them near the front or not.
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I don't think we should frontload the player with too many secret exit levels. They should be spread out a bit for some variety. That said, I'm just waiting for more rough sketches of the overworld before proposing anything too specific with regards to level order, because these sketches may help inform where certain levels should be placed.SAJewers wrote: ↑11 months ago EDIT: Wanna get back to very much pressing need to sort out the main overworld: the first level of the main overworld (after beating castle wolfenstein) should probably be one with a secret exit. We have 8 levels with a secret exit (plus 2 with 2 secret exits), so I dunno if we want to have most of them near the front or not.
"Use Of A Goal Posts" would be too hard for the early game. I would suggest having "Fungus Forest Flow" as the first level on the main overworld. It's relatively easy, it has two exits which offers the player a choice of paths right away, and it could be placed on the river like Catabo was talking about.Luckwaive wrote: ↑11 months ago Considering the player heads downwards from the castle in W1, I envisioned that it would lead the player out to the top section of the open OW. Maybe in the top left corner, perhaps? I also think placing it here instead might make it easier to resolve a potential issue with use of a goal post (first level of the open OW after W1), which I had a potential solution to, but that's something I'll discuss in another post altogether. That might not really matter though, as long as it's placed underneath W1.
Some of the other main overworld levels could be placed near the entrances/exits of submaps that have a similar theme. For example, "Quirky Quarry" can be close to the cave submap, "Aileron Moonbounce" in the vicinity of sky/space world, and "Killy Killer Volcano" near the mountains/final world.
It also looks like there's a perspective issue with the overhang that "Super Easy Going" is situated on. Note that the intro level leaves Demo off at a shoreline, so that probably should be kept in mind.Luckwaive wrote: ↑11 months ago Looking at the map again there's a couple of funky perspective things, mainly in the bottom left corner, which I did to try to shoehorn the big hill there (couldn't have it against the wall since there's no hill graphics with the wall color behind it). Might just remove that and replace it with some trees instead so that I can adjust the perspective to make more sense.
I kind of like your idea of the Fishmarket being in a lagoon or bay area. Having two entrances to the cave world is interesting. I was hoping that not all of the submaps would lead to dead ends, which I feel was a weakness of A2MT's overworld design. More interplay between the submaps and main overworld would be cool. And for the urban/mountain section, maybe put a skyline there.Catabo wrote: ↑11 months ago Pretend the black hole for abstract world is more centrally located so the rainbow path can get sucked into it too. I only thought of "waterfall creating a rainbow, which then creates a path to get into the sky world" after drawing everything else. OW would probably also be more central and smushing world 1/urban-mountains to the periphery a bit. The river could additionally be widened and have the fishmarket sitting in the middle of it (sub-map babey!!!!!) rather than off to the side in the sea. I additionally² had plans for more inter-world connections like the mountain chasm becoming the cave world, but i'm sure those will reveal themselves organically through level exits needing to lead to interesting places.
The preference seems to be for an open overworld where you can beat the worlds in any order you want. But the player would still be required to beat all of the world-ending castles/stages to get access to the final world. The benefit of this approach is that it gives the player a reason to visit all of the submaps. But because of this restriction, I don't see how we can implement big, meaningful shortcuts. We do have a fast travel system planned, but it's mostly for convenience.Catabo wrote: ↑11 months ago I love the concept, but i don't think the "1, 2, 3, etc" signs next to castles should be used if the player is going to be able to tackle worlds in whatever order they want. I'm curious to see which order cow will play them in and i don't want the game to decide for him with those signs.
(if the player is not allowed to tackle worlds in whatever order and there's just the open OW in the middle, ignore this)
I have a semi-ambitious idea for how we should handle the postgame that I've been holding onto for a while. We should probably make a new topic for postgame discussion, though.Lord Ruby wrote: ↑11 months ago On another topic, I remember some people mentioned ideas about accessing the postgame, but said they'd share them later. How about now...? I had an idea where the final level would have multiple entrances* which grant access to somewhat different sublevel pathways, one of which is a "reverse back door" of sorts, which has a hidden secret exit that leads to the postgame.
*Even if we run out of level slots, some asm should be able to detect which entrance the player used depending on some overworld addresses like 7F17-7F1E (1F17-1F1E, player positions on the overworld).
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Re: World Map Organization - Public side
Looking at again, we have 9 levels with secret exits, and 13 levels without in the unsorted main OW right now, so yeah, I guess we can probably space them out somewhat evenly. As long as we don't backload them either.PSI Ninja wrote: ↑11 months ago I don't think we should frontload the player with too many secret exit levels. They should be spread out a bit for some variety. That said, I'm just waiting for more rough sketches of the overworld before proposing anything too specific with regards to level order, because these sketches may help inform where certain levels should be placed.
(on that note, if we try and fill in the final 5 level slots, the 2 we don't use for Rest Areas should probably be single exit levels, else things might get too cluttered?)
I was actually thinking making either Fungus Forest Flow, Red Radish Morning, or Cave of Monsters by the first level. Do agree on putting some levels that are near-matches near the similar submap.PSI Ninja wrote: ↑11 months ago "Use Of A Goal Posts" would be too hard for the early game. I would suggest having "Fungus Forest Flow" as the first level on the main overworld. It's relatively easy, it has two exits which offers the player a choice of paths right away, and it could be placed on the river like Catabo was talking about.
Some of the other main overworld levels could be placed near the entrances/exits of submaps that have a similar theme. For example, "Quirky Quarry" can be close to the cave submap, "Aileron Moonbounce" in the vicinity of sky/space world, and "Killy Killer Volcano" near the mountains/final world.
Yeah. We can do small shortcuts in the submaps, and quicker paths to the submaps in the main OW, but no huge skips, unless we want multiple ways to enter a submap, in which case we could in theory have a secondary way into a submap that puts you further into the world.PSI Ninja wrote: ↑11 months ago The preference seems to be for an open overworld where you can beat the worlds in any order you want. But the player would still be required to beat all of the world-ending castles/stages to get access to the final world. The benefit of this approach is that it gives the player a reason to visit all of the submaps. But because of this restriction, I don't see how we can implement big, meaningful shortcuts. We do have a fast travel system planned, but it's mostly for convenience.
I do agree with not having dead ends in submaps, as it would make the Open OW more open. Having said that, I think we should try to avoid having each submap take you on right a path right to the next submap.PSI Ninja wrote: ↑11 months ago I kind of like your idea of the Fishmarket being in a lagoon or bay area. Having two entrances to the cave world is interesting. I was hoping that not all of the submaps would lead to dead ends, which I feel was a weakness of A2MT's overworld design. More interplay between the submaps and main overworld would be cool. And for the urban/mountain section, maybe put a skyline there.
Re: World Map Organization - Public side
I sketched out a possible main overworld with a level order, level connections, etc. while trying to incorporate the ideas that the others have presented so far.
The switch palaces (except for the yellow one) are all accessible through secret exits in submaps which lead back into the main overworld.
Every world (except for abstract and the postgame) puts the player back somewhere into the main overworld to avoid dead ends.
The cave world has two entrances through the main overworld (3 entrances when including the one from urban/mountain world).
The final level of both the mountain and cave world lead the player back to "The Cave of Monsters" which allows them to choose the other world after beating one of them.
I didn't know how we will handle the postgame yet so I put it in the bottom right corner for now, requiring beating "THE OBSTACLE", "The Beginning of Spring", the most difficult exit of "Use Of A Goal Posts" and the secret exit of "Bad Day at the Garden" to reach it plus whatever other unlock condition we can think of.
The rainbow leads to sky/space world but can lead to abstract world as well once it has been unlocked.
A lot of things could probably be done much better (and I think I forgot Sui Glide) but this sketch hopefully gives people some more ideas.
The switch palaces (except for the yellow one) are all accessible through secret exits in submaps which lead back into the main overworld.
Every world (except for abstract and the postgame) puts the player back somewhere into the main overworld to avoid dead ends.
The cave world has two entrances through the main overworld (3 entrances when including the one from urban/mountain world).
The final level of both the mountain and cave world lead the player back to "The Cave of Monsters" which allows them to choose the other world after beating one of them.
I didn't know how we will handle the postgame yet so I put it in the bottom right corner for now, requiring beating "THE OBSTACLE", "The Beginning of Spring", the most difficult exit of "Use Of A Goal Posts" and the secret exit of "Bad Day at the Garden" to reach it plus whatever other unlock condition we can think of.
The rainbow leads to sky/space world but can lead to abstract world as well once it has been unlocked.
A lot of things could probably be done much better (and I think I forgot Sui Glide) but this sketch hopefully gives people some more ideas.
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