And Another Thing - discussion thread

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name this garbage hack

Poll ended at 7 months ago

A Third Mario Thing
12
34%
And Another Thing
13
37%
A Different Mario Thing
0
No votes
One More Mario Thing
2
6%
An ASMT Thing
5
14%
A2MT2
0
No votes
R-Type Final 4
3
9%
 
Total votes: 35

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KobaBeach
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And Another Thing - discussion thread

Post by KobaBeach »

And Another Thing

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Description:
Hello gamers... This is And Another Thing, A Third Mario Thing, the most epic and sexy and for the win Super Mario World romhack since Brutal Mario. It will be a simpler collab, with a more relaxed vibe a la the VIPs where there isn't too much focus on everything being chocolate as heck but if anyone wants to make a chocolate stage, they're free to do so. So far the only strategy is "make levels think s**t later".

Roadmap is making stages until we feel we have enough, then Bowser's Castle, then overworld, then first release. Then possible bosses, then final release. It is different from ASMT in that claiming spots in the overworld is not a thing as I feel that would force everyone to make their stages in a more restrictive manner, focusing on a certain theme or difficulty relative to the placement.

We are using underway and Maddy Thorson's Lunar Monitor and Lunar Helper pack to help compile the hack for easy building. Normal users can simply assign Lunar Monitor with their rom for easy extraction of levels, while sticking to the other tools (PIXI, GPS and UberASM) for insertion. Updates to the baserom are frequent but for the most part you can work on your level with no real problem with regards to updating the baserom every day. Any questions you may have will be answered as soon as possible on Talkhaus and Discord, as we understand the Lunar tools are kinda scary to work with!

All you need to deliver is the .mwl, any map16 and custom graphics you've added, and any custom ASM you're using and we'll merge it with the current baserom (likely Nao will). You can also ask for custom music if you want, add it yourself, or specify that you want vanilla music. Any other specifications (wanting Mario enemies, setting up multi midpoint etc) are also valid, you don't need to worry. Foreground and Background tilemap replacements are not on the table due to the issue of making them all consistent, so you can stick with whatever you insert from SMWC, or any vanilla tilemap.

Retry can also be added through the UberASM version of it by Kevin, but I and Nao want the hack to be relatively on the Standard label, we can discuss this with the other team members. Retry added to reaction based Standard levels is not off the table, of course! There are also a few bugfixes I've added for the sake of it. I tried to not remove anything that fixed bug strats though, like double carry and wall jumps.

Buckle up, Homestucks...

The wheel of fate is turning.
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Discussion:
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Claiming Spreadsheet

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isky......
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Original post:

So you might remember a few months ago when we were planning MaGL4 I mentioned a collab. xfix tried helping me get it started and manage it, but I spoke to him right now and he decided to decline due to the sheer mammoth task that is organizing a collab. I still believe a collab could happen between raocow-aligned hackers and etcetera.

However.

xfix did say one thing, that I think I should keep in mind.
if you want my honest answer, i don't think you would be capable enough to be a leader of a collab
i don't want to discourage you, you can try to prove me wrong by actually making a working collab, just know that odds are against you, most collabs do fail
This is to say. We have to keep it relatively low cost if we want to make it work. We can't expect people to make a second VIP5 or JUMP 1/2 in a project that's mostly beginners.

I've thought about stuff like a final boss, since I specialize in state machines, but I don't want to risk it.

For now I'm thinking of focusing on making a baserom for non-ASM inclined users and a spreadsheet to organize stuff like Map16 pages, custom sprites, blocks, patches, level ids, sublevel ids, ExGFX numbers...

SMWC/SNESLab users can join as well, though I warn that due to my involvement, it might be likely that an upload to SMWC will not happen. I will upload it to Romhacking.net though.

ASM will be kept to mostly premade stuff and stuff for people's levels. Extraneous stuff that isn't already on SMWC will likely not happen. Maingame bosses and such will be Koopalings/Reznor/Big Boo. I like them and I feel they're perfectly good bosses for a Mario game. For this reason I feel like we shouldn't make this hack an ASMT series effort.

Difficulty I feel like it should be Standard for the most part. I'm not opposed to including a few Kaizo levels as well, but we'll need a player that is good at Kaizo to test them. I'm simply not up to the task.

I don't expect this to get any traction but. First let's have a discussion on priorities and whatnot so we can get this going properly. Opening up for levels and a proper name and such will be later. There will not be a hard baseline for levels. We can have only like 20 and it'll be fine.

My fellow men (and women, and nb folk), you may discuss.
Last edited by KobaBeach 7 months ago, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: Unnamed SMW Collab Project - pre-planning phase

Post by Disk Poppy »

I propose it to be VIP-style nerfed Gaiden-style challenge type hack, but all levels have to have clashing graphics rips, like in Lost Players but more clashing. Actually I have been thinking maybe mimic SMA4 e-reader world, so levels have elements from SMB2 and SMB3.
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Re: Unnamed SMW Collab Project - pre-planning phase

Post by KobaBeach »

Disk Poppy wrote: 7 months ago I propose it to be VIP-style nerfed Gaiden-style challenge type hack, but all levels have to have clashing graphics rips, like in Lost Players but more clashing. Actually I have been thinking maybe mimic SMA4 e-reader world, so levels have elements from SMB2 and SMB3.
this post could kill a victorian child
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Re: Unnamed SMW Collab Project - pre-planning phase

Post by Nao »

Exciting stuff, I really hope this gets some traction.

The low-scope approach of "just make random levels and throw them together" can work fine imo if we manage our expectations (don't expect a high amount of polish especially from new hackers, and don't try to band aid those kind of levels too much). Also people should avoid making extremely generic levels because while those can work in larger hacks they would dilute the quality of a smaller hack immensely (much more so than overly hard / questionable levels).
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Re: Unnamed SMW Collab Project - pre-planning phase

Post by Lord Ruby »

MaGL 4 definitely put me in the mood to make a SMW level. The decision to not make judge levels left me with a few orphaned level ideas in my head, so I'd probably be up for making something using at least one of those.

As for this:
KobaBeach wrote: 7 months ago I've thought about stuff like a final boss, since I specialize in state machines, but I don't want to risk it.
If you have a specific idea for a final boss, including attacks and gimmicks and whatever, that you want to make into a reality, then I'd say go for it. But if you don't, and you were thinking more along the lines of "wouldn't it be cool if we had a really cool final boss?" then yeah you probably shouldn't. Although I don't know anything about SMW ASM so maybe don't listen to me here; like, I don't know to what degree you have to make such decisions early, for instance.
Disk Poppy wrote: 7 months ago I propose it to be VIP-style nerfed Gaiden-style challenge type hack
So many terms, if only I knew what they entailed...
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Re: Unnamed SMW Collab Project - pre-planning phase

Post by EllenHouraisan »

Sounds like fun, I'll help with what I can, which granted isn't much since I still know nothing about asm and stuff. But yeah, let's do it.
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Re: Unnamed SMW Collab Project - pre-planning phase

Post by Scarfley »

I will probably be able to make a few levels for this. Like EllenHouraisan, I'm going to try to help with what I can. I'm still a beginner at SMW hacking, so this will probably be a good opportunity to get better at and learn more about SMW hacking. Besides, making a collab with you all sounds like it will be a good time. So I'm looking forward to this!
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Re: Unnamed SMW Collab Project - pre-planning phase

Post by HatKid »

I could definitely make a level or two. It would be cool if we did a small collab thing. A big project is cool and all, but yeah, if we want to actually produce a finished hack, it definitelt can't be the scale of Vip5 or Jump 1/2 or any of those.
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Re: Unnamed SMW Collab Project - pre-planning phase

Post by raekuul »

Nao wrote: 7 months agoThe low-scope approach of "just make random levels and throw them together" can work fine imo if we manage our expectations (don't expect a high amount of polish especially from new hackers, and don't try to band aid those kind of levels too much).
Also people should avoid making extremely generic levels because while those can work in larger hacks they would dilute the quality of a smaller hack immensely (much more so than overly hard / questionable levels).
I remember ASMT The First had a "claim a level slot" system. Perhaps by deciding ahead of time how many levels will be used we can curate the creators somewhat and reduce how many extremely generic levels get submitted. Reduce the potential input and that's less work you have to do at the filtering/assemblage steps.
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Re: Unnamed SMW Collab Project - pre-planning phase

Post by KobaBeach »

Lord Ruby wrote: 7 months ago If you have a specific idea for a final boss, including attacks and gimmicks and whatever, that you want to make into a reality, then I'd say go for it. But if you don't, and you were thinking more along the lines of "wouldn't it be cool if we had a really cool final boss?" then yeah you probably shouldn't. Although I don't know anything about SMW ASM so maybe don't listen to me here; like, I don't know to what degree you have to make such decisions early, for instance.
Designing bosses isn't too hard I think if you don't go full on Julius on your first go and have a good grasp on state machines (jump tables and the like), the big thing is that I haven't ASM'ed in a few months so I'm a smidge rusty. I actually started a basic Koopaling-esque SMW boss some months back but never finished it (also no actual graphics, so a lot of its tiles were just squares with stuff written on it). I should continue it for people who want to use it.
raekuul wrote: 7 months ago I remember ASMT The First had a "claim a level slot" system. Perhaps by deciding ahead of time how many levels will be used we can curate the creators somewhat and reduce how many extremely generic levels get submitted. Reduce the potential input and that's less work you have to do at the filtering/assemblage steps.
That's too unwieldy and creates unnecessary focus on level theming and structure, I feel like a more freeform, "upload whatever, overworld is last" method like VIP and ASPE is best. It's just that making a thousand empty level slots on the map and the like, we run into a bigger chance of having the issue of the game being very patchwork in its progress and expecting too much from a small team. Please don't take this the wrong way <3
Nao wrote: 7 months ago Also people should avoid making extremely generic levels because while those can work in larger hacks they would dilute the quality of a smaller hack immensely (much more so than overly hard / questionable levels).
I firmly believe people should be encouraged to make bad/questionable levels if they want to. Like Hyper 6 and shit lol
EllenHouraisan wrote: 7 months ago Sounds like fun, I'll help with what I can, which granted isn't much since I still know nothing about asm and stuff.
That's why I'm planning to make a baserom, so people can also use custom sprites and blocks.

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Thank you for you're [sic] posts. I'll get a google docs thing going, as well as a baserom. Already downloaded some SMB3 enemies, the Propeller Block (leod is a sex pest and I was hurt by him, but it's a really good level design tool so I don't want it to be left ignored by the general populace, I say we reclaim it), the Spin Block, and some patches:

Sprite:
Angry Sun/Happy Moon by Sonikku
Base Bro (Bomb Bro + Shell Bro, I'll include a guide on how to make your own) by JackTheSpades
Boomerang Bro by Sonikku
Boss Bass by Sonikku
Burners by KobaBeach/lion
Buster Beetle by edit1754
Chain Chomp by edit1754
Classic Goomba + Paragoomba by Blind Devil
Directional Platform by Kevin + Ice Man
Fire Snake by imamelia
Fire Bro by Sonikku
Giant Goomba by mikeyk
Giant Koopas by mikeyk
Giant Parakoopa by Koyuki
Giant Piranha Plants by mikeyk
Giant Spiny by mikeyk
Hammer Bro by Sonikku
Lava Lotus by Davros
Missile Bill by Davros
Nipper by imamelia
Parabeetle by MarkAlarm + Romi + imamelia
Pile Driver Micro Goomba by edit1754
Piranha + Venus Fire Trap (Green, Red; Horizontal, Vertical) by imamelia (thinking of using the vanilla Piranha for the vertical Piranhas)
Propeller Block by noted sex pest, leod
Ptooie by Romi
Rocky Wrench by Koyuki
Sledge Bro by Sonikku
Spike by mikeyk
Spin Block by JamesD28
Stretch by Romi
SMB3 Bowser Statue Laser by Ersanio
Patch:
On/Off States for Any Line-Guide by elusive + imamelia + worldpeace
Multiple Midway Points 1.7 by Kaijyuu + MarioFanGamer + lx5 (not sure what to use between this and retry)
Overworld Border Plus v1.2.2 by MarioFanGamer
SA1 Pack by Arujus + Vitor Vilela
100 Exit Fix by Alcaro
Auto-Scroll Speed Customizer0 by imamelia
Ball and Chain interaction with Yoshi fix by Kevin
Circle HDMA Fix by p4plus2
Individual Dragon Coin Save by JackTheSpades + lx5 + worldpeace
Extended No More Sprite Tile Limits by DiscoTheBat + Kevin + Roy + imamelia + worldpeace
$13FB Game Crash Fix by p4plus2
Fireball Conveyor Fix by Thomas (completely forgot I downloaded this)
Hammer Bro Fix v1.1 by Tattletale + yoshifanatic
No Silent Bullet Bill by Ramp202
No Sprite Interaction Fix by chillyfox
Fixed Color Data NMI Optimizer by Ladida
Piranha Plant Patch Fix by Chdata, Patriarch of the Turner Family, A Tojo Clan Subsidiary
Rollover Fix by Noobish Noobsicle (I didn't want to patch out Wrong Warps but)
Autoscroll ($1411) + L/R Softlock Fix by Telinc1
Special World Passed Shell Fix by JamesD28
Slope Pass Glitch Fix 2.1 by lolcats439
Lunar Magic's "VRAM Patch" Optimization by Kevin
Balloon Direction Fix by Alcaro
Need to get Lunar Monitor and Lunar Helper out to help organize stuff.
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Re: Unnamed SMW Collab Project - pre-planning phase

Post by Catabo »

KobaBeach wrote: 7 months agoFor now I'm thinking of focusing on making a baserom for non-ASM inclined users and a spreadsheet to organize stuff like Map16 pages, custom sprites, blocks, patches, level ids, sublevel ids, ExGFX numbers...
I'm in! Having a bunch of assets to play with without having to bother with managing them sounds ideal to me. And I could use a collab project where I'm just a peon after having started one somewhere else a week ago.
Difficulty I feel like it should be Standard for the most part. I'm not opposed to including a few Kaizo levels as well, but we'll need a player that is good at Kaizo to test them. I'm simply not up to the task.
You can always put the more difficult levels behind secret exits/on optional pathways (e.g. Butter Bridge vs Cheese Bridge) if it comes to that.

Re: bosses, if you want to do that, make a Boom Boom-style one that's versatile and can be fought several times in differing environments. It's definitely a stretch goal though.
Patch:
I recommend including the coyote time patch to cut down on "the jump didn't jump".
Disk Poppy wrote: 7 months agoActually I have been thinking maybe mimic SMA4 e-reader world, so levels have elements from SMB2 and SMB3.
mario chimera! the main character is mario but in chimera form. is he really mario anymore then? we're still waiting on the genetic tests to come back because they had to test every part of the chimera
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Re: Unnamed SMW Collab Project - pre-planning phase

Post by KobaBeach »

Catabo wrote: 7 months ago
Patch:
I recommend including the coyote time patch to cut down on "the jump didn't jump".
Done. I've also included the save anywhere by pressing select patch by Koopster. Gonna replace the Multi Midpoint patch with this Retry system by Kevin + lx5 + worldpeace, with dtothefourth's Retry Expansion and Remove Retry Prompt patches. Retries will be for the harder stages. I've thought about adding the Infinite Lives hex edit but I feel like that'd unbalance the game a bit too much. Leave lives for the easier stages.

I haven't patched yet though, still assembling resources. I'll be using Maddy and underway's Lunar Helper and Lunar Monitor to avoid conflicts in Patches and the like and building the rom from scratch using the assets, instead of just adding to the chaos that is a ROM that's already been patched and whatnot. I'm unable to sleep rn, chronic insomnia, but I'll rest a little while im on the PC and pause the development for now.

I've also started work on a preliminary Google Sheets doc for people to include their stuff, Level IDs, Sublevel IDs, Map16/Blocks, ExGFX bin files, Custom Sprite ids, and a list of the Patches that are included. Also a LevelASM list, haven't made a tab for it.
Catabo wrote: 7 months ago Re: bosses, if you want to do that, make a Boom Boom-style one that's versatile and can be fought several times in differing environments. It's definitely a stretch goal though.
I'm down, making a simple boss is ezpz.

I can't exactly make versatile ones like you'd see on SMWC, but I'm willing to make more situational ones. I'd like to do stuff like the Mode 7 and DMA and HDMA effects seen in Julius and Tanasinn, but I'm so rusty, I think it'd hinder the collab if I took the time to relearn them. Also the Mode 7 patch I use isn't compatible with SA1 I believe

"Tags: sa-1"?? Must investigate further. :pal: :pal: :pal: I'll have to extend it to 2MB first due to how the patch works though. Also, I think I had some tutoring of how to DMA upload by Von Fahrenheit, hopefully that's still on my Discord DM (A?) archives.

However. Just a simple boss sprite will do nicely for most of the game.

If someone wishes to help me design them, though! I'm a smidge creative, but I'm not the best at coming up with neat bosses. I'd probably wait until there were levels attached to them to inspire me.

EDIT: Will just add a thing to say that. I speak about bosses and shit but no. Those are stretch goals. Focus is on stages for now.
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Re: Unnamed SMW Collab Project - pre-planning phase

Post by KobaBeach »

okay i had to futz around with easy mode 7 to get it to proper sa1, but it's working

EDIT: i found the layer 2 dma patch code
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Re: Unnamed SMW Collab Project - pre-planning phase

Post by raocow »

will this be a game with demo in it :O
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Re: Unnamed SMW Collab Project - pre-planning phase

Post by Kshaard »

I do feel like "the Demo series", whatever that means, can and should embrace stuff of any quality and any scope. And, like, if this is going to be a talkhaus production, we may as well make use of that licence.
I don't know, something about the AMSTverse just makes me happy.
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Re: Unnamed SMW Collab Project - pre-planning phase

Post by KobaBeach »

oh i didn't see these poasts
raocow wrote: 7 months ago will this be a game with demo in it :O
Kshaard wrote: 7 months ago I do feel like "the Demo series", whatever that means, can and should embrace stuff of any quality and any scope. And, like, if this is going to be a talkhaus production, we may as well make use of that licence.
I don't know, something about the AMSTverse just makes me happy.
I'm not sure. If it has Demo I feel inclined to have silly bosses related to the ASMT mythos... but not to the point of silly scope creep and like. Having effing cutscenes and all that jazz. I do feel apprehensive about calling it "A3MT" or something. Either way I'm gonna focus on a level and overworld only release for the first official release, then update with any possible custom bosses as like. Post-development.

Heraga said
Heraga wrote:if you go with demo being in the hack btw id recommend calling it asmt2 because asmt1 was low-key and fairly basic for what it was worth
and would be pretty cheeky imo
And honestly, it's only with you two's chiming in that I'm honestly considering. I thought Heraga was only memeing!

Hmm...

------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyway I came here to ask a thing, I'm trying to insert some YI dynamic sprites for the baserom, but most of them appear as big squares and the Arrow Lift doesn't appear at all. I've tried patching Dynamic Z, but... However I'm using Maddy's ("AUS, Celeste, Runman, Super Sonic" Maddy) Lunar Helper and underway's Lunar Monitor to help organize things. I'm not sure if the premade SA-1 Initial Data bps included dsx or not. Haven't used SA-1 in over a year.
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Re: Unnamed SMW Collab Project - pre-planning phase

Post by EllenHouraisan »

KobaBeach wrote: 7 months ago A3MT
Let's do it. :serac: :serac: :serac:
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Re: Unnamed SMW Collab Project - pre-planning phase

Post by HatKid »

I'd be okay with making an ASMTverse something, that doesn't automatically mean it has to be this massive production (right?). If we didn't want to call it A3MT we could go with A2mt.5 or a name along those lines. Maybe not associating it with A2MT but idk.
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Re: Unnamed SMW Collab Project - pre-planning phase

Post by SAJewers »

KobaBeach wrote: 7 months ago I do feel apprehensive about calling it "A3MT" or something.
A2MT2 Image

Or take a page out of the advent projects and call it a2mt gaiden
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Re: Unnamed SMW Collab Project - pre-planning phase

Post by KobaBeach »

Spreadsheet sort of going. With baserom waiting in the wings.

The baserom is incredibly poorly set up, if there is any question for the most part, please come to me lmao. Please deliver unto me your mwls and assets. If you want a patch let me know and I'll include it in the next baserom. I've included the Lunar Helper and Monitor readmes for people to use. Ganbatte kudasai.

Lunar Magic version is 3.31.

rao, please hold off on broadcasting this to the wider audience until we've acclimatized with a few talkhaus stages.
EllenHouraisan wrote: 7 months ago
KobaBeach wrote: 7 months ago A3MT
Let's do it. :serac: :serac: :serac:
holy shit..
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Re: Unnamed SMW Collab Project - pre-planning phase

Post by Grounder »

And Another Thing is your title, boom, solved, check in the mail please.
Why don't you eat me?

I am perfectly tasty...

AND I'LL STEAL YOUR SOUL! :twisted:

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Re: Unnamed SMW Collab Project - pre-planning phase

Post by SAJewers »

if we're gonna use the demoverse for this someone should get in touch with the demoverse discord people about a channel for this
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Re: Unnamed SMW Collab Project - pre-planning phase

Post by raocow »

a different mario thing
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Re: Unnamed SMW Collab Project - pre-planning phase

Post by PSI Ninja »

Looks like I missed some of the initial excitement of yesterday. Here are some of my thoughts one day later.

This collab gives me an excuse to keep up the momentum of making more levels, so of course I would support this project and contribute. It's a good chance for beginners or amateurs like myself to get involved in hacking outside of the seldom-held SMW contest, and it's not like I'll ever make my own SMW hack or work on a SMWC collab in the future. I think I would like to make several levels for this, hopefully that's not too greedy (though there doesn't seem to be a level cap, anyway). I'll do whatever it takes to help see this to the end.

I think that Demo should be the protagonist. She's something that's unique to our community, and besides, there are already 1,000,001 SMW hacks out there that have Mario as the playable character. We would already have the ASMT/A2MT graphics replacements anyway, so we don't have to worry about making any new graphical assets.

Regarding the collab name, we should just avoid confusion and call it A3MT. It's going to be our third SMW collab, after all. I agree with HatKid, it doesn't necessarily mean that it needs to have a grand scope like A2MT. In fact, I'd rather it be more similar to how ASMT ended up, with just a collection of levels and (maybe) custom bosses. No shop system, no treasure chest system, etc. Don't put so much time and effort into the story, and just have a silly excuse plot. Maybe don't worry about custom music compositions either. In other words, make something that's semi-ambitious, with a bit of quality control so that the levels don't suck too much.

I agree that we should eschew world theming. The idea of themed worlds is such an ancient paradigm, and I don't really like it in the modern day. And besides, it would be too restricting for designers in terms of a difficulty curve (e.g., snowy World 6 levels must be harder than grassland World 1 levels).

Regarding Kaizo, as long as it's easy Kaizo (like Mabel's Advent levels or the TOSHIBA level from MaGL4), then I would be fine with that. If it's hard Kaizo that requires midair shell jumps and such, then that's not something I would want to play.

As for custom bosses, I'm confident that I can learn how to code one in the coming months. Maybe not a revolutionary custom boss, but a custom boss nonetheless. The only thing I can't do is graphics - I would need to team up with a graphics artist to make that happen.

Finally, I would personally prefer to have a dedicated forum for collab development talk, with individual topics for each level to keep feedback nice and organized. This way, we keep everything transparent and on the front-facing web, rather than having the majority of development talk behind a third-party Discord server that you need to join. Another downside of keeping things restricted to Discord is that there's the element of "needing to be there" should an important discussion happen in the chat - otherwise you miss out on it when the discussion is no longer hot. However, I'm not completely against using Discord. Discord discussions absolutely should still happen, but mostly for asking small questions and to get quick opinions on things.
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Re: Unnamed SMW Collab Project - pre-planning phase

Post by camwoodstock »

raocow wrote: 7 months ago a different mario thing
admt
we would actually be down for smth like this. an asmt project that's just like, for the sake of creating. not necessarily extravagant or lore-heavy unless someone decides to throw it in themselves, it's just silly at its core.

also we don't really know too much abt lunar magic but we'd TOTALLY be down to learn & add a few levels ourselves! :o
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