And Another Thing - discussion thread

name this garbage hack

Poll ended at 4 months ago

A Third Mario Thing
12
34%
And Another Thing
13
37%
A Different Mario Thing
0
No votes
One More Mario Thing
2
6%
An ASMT Thing
5
14%
A2MT2
0
No votes
R-Type Final 4
3
9%
 
Total votes: 35

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Re: And Another Thing - discussion thread

Post by KobaBeach »

SMCslevelengine wrote: 3 months ago If you really don't want me with my 10+ years of experience to submit any levels at all to A3MT then feel free to say it.
i respect your 10+ years of experience, you make good levels, but you're really annoying
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Re: And Another Thing - discussion thread

Post by camwoodstock »

KobaBeach wrote: 3 months ago dude i was eating lays rn
i wish all KobaBeach a very nice lays chips
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Re: And Another Thing - discussion thread

Post by KobaBeach »

SMCslevelengine wrote: 3 months ago If you really don't want me with my 10+ years of experience to submit any levels at all to A3MT then feel free to say it.
okay decision made, you can make levels as long as you don't act too edgy in project related material
camwoodstock wrote: 3 months ago i wish all KobaBeach a very nice lays chips
thank you i finished the rest today

they were lays gourmet brand black truffle and sea salt chips. they taste too much like truffle but it's ok
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Re: And Another Thing - discussion thread

Post by KobaBeach »

PSI Ninja wrote: 3 months ago Status update: 16 levels have been inserted into the base ROM, and 41/95 level slots have been claimed. For those of you who might want to make a level but haven't reserved their spot yet, there are still plenty of openings! Here's the spreadsheet again: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... 1122672625

Since this post, Levels 19, 14, and 11F have been inserted. Level 106 is pending insertion.

Some of the newer submissions haven't gotten much feedback yet. If you have some free time, you can download the latest base ROM patch and check them out: https://github.com/lion65816/aat/blob/m ... ck_bps.bps
forwarding this here, just in casio mario world

making an unsampled bravely default port (that i know francium already ported but let me have my moment) and grinning like a gremlin bitch when it's time to add in the distortion guitar

why does smw not have more guitar samples, was the midi keyboard they got their samples from (i think it was a korg or roland, forgot the specific model) really that paltry? guess koji kondom just isnt that into dumb guitar songs

also thinking about how much of a cute dad akuma from streets is. tried beating svc chaos with him the other day but you can't really do much of anything with anyone so i just cheesed it after giving kim a shot. i kinda wanna practice kim, kensou and terry in kof ngl, they seem like they vibe with me

i am the bitch that just spams burn knuckle in an attempt to rushdown
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Re: And Another Thing - discussion thread

Post by SAJewers »

anyone good at sprite art
Image
Had a dumb idea for a level where all the castle enemies are different liquors
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Re: And Another Thing - discussion thread

Post by KobaBeach »

SAJewers wrote: 3 months ago anyone good at sprite art
Image
Had a dumb idea for a level where all the castle enemies are different liquors
Maybe you could check Spriters Resource for some sprites, possibly editing them as well to fit your needs?


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Re: And Another Thing - discussion thread

Post by Nao »

Just wanna say that even though this forum isn't very active, we got a steady pace of levels getting finished (22 in the baserom currently) and the action is happening over at discord, so I recommend everyone to join it who hasn't yet!
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Re: And Another Thing - discussion thread

Post by KobaBeach »

Nao wrote: 3 months ago Just wanna say that even though this forum isn't very active, we got a steady pace of levels getting finished (22 in the baserom currently) and the action is happening over at discord, so I recommend everyone to join it who hasn't yet!
I hope we can mirror the updates to the forum too, so people who are outside of it are aware of The Haps though.

Sorry for being absent these past few days, prepping for a colonoscopy (stomach infection, Crohn's) has been a huge pain. Gonna do it in a few hours, should be but like 15 minutes of anesthetics and ass tubes. But also it just slipped my mind before the prep and I'm really sorry for not being as active as I should, even with Nao and Disk Poppy running the shots for me.
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Re: And Another Thing - discussion thread

Post by PSI Ninja »

KobaBeach wrote: 3 months ago I hope we can mirror the updates to the forum too, so people who are outside of it are aware of The Haps though.
I guess I can try to summarize what went on in the chat every few days or so. To be fair, nothing super important has been discussed there yet. Basically, all people have been doing is upload their levels in the form of .bps patches to #testers-wanted, a few of us give our thoughts on levels (outside of the thread), and minor changes are made before they're inserted into the base ROM. Also, there's a #help-me-eirin channel where some people have been getting ASM, graphics, and Lunar Magic help. I imagine the forum will become more relevant when all the levels are inserted, and we begin to tie things together. For example, overworld planning and figuring out the level order will probably need a thread.

Some general thoughts I had, to hopefully add a bit more discussion here:

1) In the credits page of the spreadsheet, we should probably make a distinction between the in-house and external contributors for graphics, music, and ASM. This will highlight who actually worked directly on the collab, versus the people whose assets we downloaded from SMWC.

2) I think it's worth documenting the freespace/freeRAM being used by patches. This would help coders like me make sure there aren't any conflicts when writing our own custom ASM.

3) Has anyone talked about what the overworld status bar is going to be like? For example, if there's going to be secret exit and Dragon Coin indicators, if we're putting the author names, etc.

4) No one has claimed a Switch Palace level yet, but I think they should be re-enterable to allow the player to toggle them on and off (with a shortcut, of course). Could be good for replayability, if the Switch Blocks heavily affect a level's design.
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Re: And Another Thing - discussion thread

Post by KobaBeach »

PSI Ninja wrote: 3 months ago 1) In the credits page of the spreadsheet, we should probably make a distinction between the in-house and external contributors for graphics, music, and ASM. This will highlight who actually worked directly on the collab, versus the people whose assets we downloaded from SMWC.
ASMT did this in its credits so, it could be a good idea. Inhouse vs. Outhouse (badumtss) basically.
PSI Ninja wrote: 3 months ago 2) I think it's worth documenting the freespace/freeRAM being used by patches. This would help coders like me make sure there aren't any conflicts when writing our own custom ASM.
Definitely, I don't think much has been used freeRAM wise, but we should document it none the less.
PSI Ninja wrote: 3 months ago 3) Has anyone talked about what the overworld status bar is going to be like? For example, if there's going to be secret exit and Dragon Coin indicators, if we're putting the author names, etc.
I thought about making it similar to the VLDCs or Maks' release of A2MT. I feel like we can figure that out when we get there, secret exit and DC are a must though.
PSI Ninja wrote: 3 months ago 4) No one has claimed a Switch Palace level yet, but I think they should be re-enterable to allow the player to toggle them on and off (with a shortcut, of course). Could be good for replayability, if the Switch Blocks heavily affect a level's design.
Sounds like a neat idea, might need a small patch to avoid destruction of the Switch Palace? I forget how Switch Palace level icons work in Lunar Magic.
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Re: And Another Thing - discussion thread

Post by Catabo »

If you'll allow me one moment of ideaguying: if the switch palaces are toggleable, why not make them be more like electric switches than buttons? Worrying about any sort of esthetic detail like this is way in the future after the level-making phase is mostly over, but I couldn't get it out of my head how cool it could look for the switch palaces on the map to be actual buildings that have the lights turned on (flashing coin palette) depending on whether or not the switch is active, so here's a concept.
bonus- unplanned plug motif.png
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Re: And Another Thing - discussion thread

Post by KobaBeach »

Catabo wrote: 3 months ago If you'll allow me one moment of ideaguying: if the switch palaces are toggleable, why not make them be more like electric switches than buttons? Worrying about any sort of esthetic detail like this is way in the future after the level-making phase is mostly over, but I couldn't get it out of my head how cool it could look for the switch palaces on the map to be actual buildings that have the lights turned on (flashing coin palette) depending on whether or not the switch is active, so here's a concept.
bonus- unplanned plug motif.png
I think this could be possible with a patch? Not sure, never really messed with overworld stuff.
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Re: And Another Thing - discussion thread

Post by Taigiry »

SAJewers wrote: 3 months ago anyone good at sprite art
Image
Had a dumb idea for a level where all the castle enemies are different liquors
If someone hasn't already, I could take a shot at it. But just as a summarization, those are Thwomps, Thwimps, Dry Bones, Bony Beetle and Magikoopa? Anything missing? And what about obstacles like mega spikes?
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Re: And Another Thing - discussion thread

Post by SAJewers »

I ended up taking a 2nd shot. It's not the best, but It'll do.
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Re: And Another Thing - discussion thread

Post by Taigiry »

Taigiry wrote: 3 months ago
SAJewers wrote: 3 months ago anyone good at sprite art
Image
Had a dumb idea for a level where all the castle enemies are different liquors
If someone hasn't already, I could take a shot at it. But just as a summarization, those are Thwomps, Thwimps, Dry Bones, Bony Beetle and Magikoopa? Anything missing? And what about obstacles like mega spikes?
Going back to this, I tried making a replacement for Thwomp in his various states. Not sure if it ended up being good enough though, but if so, I can continue with doing others as well.
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Re: And Another Thing - discussion thread

Post by SAJewers »

Nah, I think what I ended up with is fine enough; don't worry about it.

Anyway, I was looking through the list of claimed levels (of which about half currently doesn't list a status), and it seems, based on what's been filled so so far, we'll have a Cave world, a Sky world, and a Forest world, possibly even a Grass world (though two levels are labelled "Grass/Forest" and one "Grass/Cave").

Also, not many levels right now making use of switch blocks.
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Re: And Another Thing - discussion thread

Post by KobaBeach »

Trying to mess about with ASM now to get back into the swing of things. Literally was just playing Swordcraft Story 2 when I was like "hmm i want to áh ésse éme".
SAJewers wrote: 3 months ago Anyway, I was looking through the list of claimed levels (of which about half currently doesn't list a status), and it seems, based on what's been filled so so far, we'll have a Cave world, a Sky world, and a Forest world, possibly even a Grass world (though two levels are labelled "Grass/Forest" and one "Grass/Cave").
My castle level can go basically anywhere, I'm not making a boss for it asap, so it's just gonna be one of the Koopalings as the boss right now, and I feel that can go anywhere. The ice stage is partially christmas themed so it could fit anywhere a small settlement could be placed in.

I still feel we should group things by relative difficulty, with maybe a few breathers to break the pace. See how ASPE doesn't really have themed worlds and VIP5 has three grass/misc. worlds: 1, 2 and 6.
SAJewers wrote: 3 months ago Also, not many levels right now making use of switch blocks.
I've thought about going through levels after the overworld is done and adding them in if necessary. We'd have to be careful not to mess with the flow of the stages though so author feedback would be crucial.
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Re: And Another Thing - discussion thread

Post by SAJewers »

I think themed worlds are doable, though I the problem right now is that far too many claimed levels don't have any sort of listed difficulty. If we had some sort of rough idea on the difficulty for some of these themes, we could probably coordinate on filling out the world with levels of that difficulty.

But yeah, we'll definitely have to have some misc worlds, and some levels that don't strictly fit the theme of the world (if we do go that route).

On that note, Is there going to be a postgame world?
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Re: And Another Thing - discussion thread

Post by KobaBeach »

SAJewers wrote: 3 months ago I think themed worlds are doable, though I the problem right now is that far too many claimed levels don't have any sort of listed difficulty. If we had some sort of rough idea on the difficulty for some of these themes, we could probably coordinate on filling out the world with levels of that difficulty.

But yeah, we'll definitely have to have some misc worlds, and some levels that don't strictly fit the theme of the world (if we do go that route).
I feel like we shouldn't worry about the overworld for now, we can handle it once all the levels that people want to claim are in. That's kind of how the VIPs did it, and possibly the JUMP Team efforts. As for difficulty, it's hard to rate them without actually playing it and the authors aren't usually the best at giving proper answers due to difficulty numbness. It might be best to wait until they're ready to be tested before rating them, possibly maybe perhaps.

Haimari might be a good example, but I'm not sure if they've played with savestates. cheat-master's old hack from when they were like early 20s I think, Mario End Game, is a good example if we include savestate play, he basically played with savestates and balanced difficulty according to that resulting in a barely playable hack. Maybe Metballs could beat it, though.
SAJewers wrote: 3 months ago On that note, Is there going to be a postgame world?
I feel like we shouldn't make levels specifically for a postgame world. It's against The Talkhaus Rules Of Game Design, yes, but I feel like it'd get in the way of level availability. There is the ability to use sublevels as overworld entrances in recent versions of Lunar Magic, but for now we should stick as postgame being an extra world full of the harder normal levels that were simply a bit too much for the rest of the overworld.

If the community does get a second wind once levels are cleared we could think of that possibility, but it's been Kinda Quiet? I dunno what people consider super active. It's mostly just me going insane on #general-discussion at this point.

And anyway, to be fair, A2MT was also only planned to technically only have two post-game stages, namely further over there... and B-Side, and B-Side was basically the True Last "Boss" (the boss is grinding out the kaizo). Though A2MT is also like chock full of semi-nonlinear paths and Shitty Difficulty. ASMBXT was where, I feel, it started to dial it up to 11, with like 12 extra stages of sheer chaos (and Suboptimal, modern art i swear).

And murder death place zone, but that's like, the Shinryu and Omega, the Divinegon, the Ragu O Ragula, the Nameless King, the stupid as fuck superboss of ASMBXT.

I forget about A2XT1 but wasn't MaGLX1 and X2 also filled with like 50 judge and guest and like SMBX2 feature preview levels, I distinctly remember someone mentioning something about Snake in MaGLX2 and he is a character in SMBX2 though he wasn't used in MaGLX3. Complete insanity.

------------------------

tfw you're too psychologically broken to function that the performance anxiety from your school days starts to mess with your hacking, namely debugging asm

also i just read on tvtropes, home of turbonerds, that summon night 3 (not hajimari no ishi on gba, im talking about the ps2/psp srpg) is harder because of people being mad black matrix 2 was baby difficulty and im like fuuuuuck because there's also the matter of brave clears being introduced in it so i can't exactly grind if i want a High% file. Time To Get Fucked In The Ass

also it's really funny i bitched about b-side with other people back in 2014 when looking back on it, it's an impressively modern take on kaizo for like 2013, when everything else was either a) Shitty Takes On TAKE's Work, or b) worldpeace's Actually Good hacks? it's kind of fucked up actually. clearly anon is a time traveler. im also of the opinion that kouhai is partially oldschool kaizo, partially standard v hard though, but raocow played those with savescumming (which is the intended manner but).
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Re: And Another Thing - discussion thread

Post by SAJewers »

Yeah, we don't have to worry about it too much right now, but I would like to avoid what happened with A2XT1 where the levels and whatnot were all for the most part submitted and finalized, we figure out how the worlds will get constructed, then someone starts work on the overworld and everything stalls for like 6 months while we wait

edit: tough to be fair, christmas and maglx1 ended up getting in the way
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Re: And Another Thing - discussion thread

Post by KobaBeach »

SAJewers wrote: 3 months ago Yeah, we don't have to worry about it too much right now, but I would like to avoid what happened with A2XT1 where the levels and whatnot were all for the most part submitted and finalized, we figure out how the worlds will get constructed, then someone starts work on the overworld and everything stalls for like 6 months while we wait

edit: tough to be fair, christmas and maglx1 ended up getting in the way
You're right, though. I'd like to avoid stuff like the VIP5 delays too. As long as we get a v0.99 release out the door with the levels, overworld and vanilla bosses within the next year or so, I'll be happy.

-------------

Speaking of custom bosses, I should be debugging my ASM. I could consider making a boss design thread so we can get in nice and early wrt that, I'd like there to be a team helping me design them so they're not too carol-y. I think I know how to design a boss, but I'm not sure what is too boring. We should also focus on not making them as absurdly complex as possible and settle for functionality over pizazz.

I do worry about burn out due to perceived deadlines on my end. School anxiety and all. I do kinda want to sacrifice myself for the good of the project, though, as bad of an idea as that may be.
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Re: And Another Thing - discussion thread

Post by Nao »

I definitely think we should do the Overworld after most of levels are done. The reason being that once you establish certain world themes people will not go out of the box enough to adhere to them, and we will get a lot of similary themed levels in a row. Misc worlds are much cooler imo because you never know what to expect next.
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Re: And Another Thing - discussion thread

Post by KobaBeach »

Nao wrote: 3 months ago I definitely think we should do the Overworld after most of levels are done. The reason being that once you establish certain world themes people will not go out of the box enough to adhere to them, and we will get a lot of similary themed levels in a row. Misc worlds are much cooler imo because you never know what to expect next.
The thing about this is that ASMT wasn't too bad with it, even A2MT had quite a few grassland stages with identity. Layer 2 Romp was in the bad way though, and Intertwined Plains/Tangled Grounds were too similar to one another (Tangled Grounds was also a smidge youtube level). SMWCP, of the little that's still in my memory, has literal dead ends in the overworld just to add as many levels as possible and the first world has like three out of three red dots in it's first three stages, and they're all pretty samey early 10s "entrail spaghetti level design" SMWC levels.

I think of what I've seen in private of SMWCP2's in-progress and forever non-releasing revival, it's been beautified and remade a bit so while it'll likely be outdone by new stuff like JUMP, it should make for a decent playthrough. Boss design could be better though, but ASMers are avoiding the project as is.

I still think planning around an overworld is too dicey, and winds up in expecting too many levels from too little people, thus increasing the workload. I guess it could make sense if this was the late 00s-early 10s where SMW hacking was still a decently sized thing with people like ProtonJon and AzureBlade or whatever that dude's name was and raocow playing every single SMWC hack regardless of quality, instead of now where it's a smaller group of people doing little Kaizos to challenge their favorite streamers every few days and the occasional low-stakes Standard hack popping out every few more days, maybe a magnum dong Koba-core Very Hard nonsense hack twice a month.

But right now where you don't have that many people, expecting them to make like 95 levels is a bit stressful, and any less is a bit limiting. Admittedly when I set this up I was inspired by Gbreeze's private collab (that I was actually invited to when I was on SMWC, I later abstained due to me feeling that I wouldn't make a level that's good enough for the quality it commands, despite Gbreeze saying I could just make whatever) and Kitikuchan's JLDC and how they handled things and I still feel it's a really good way of setting things up, due to how flexible a spreadsheet is.



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Re: And Another Thing - discussion thread

Post by PSI Ninja »

Regarding the overworld and level placement, I think that the difficulty curve shouldn't be monotonic. The later levels in a world could be a bit harder than the early levels in the following world. I agree that we'll probably want some breather levels in the later worlds, because it would be a pain for the player to have to endure a long gauntlet of hard levels. For example, near the endgame, some levels with a 2.5 or 3 difficulty would be nice to break up the string of 4-5 difficulties. So the difficulty curve could be more like a ragged sawtooth with a rising trend. It will be interesting to debate where levels should be placed later on.
KobaBeach wrote: 3 months ago If the community does get a second wind once levels are cleared we could think of that possibility, but it's been Kinda Quiet? I dunno what people consider super active. It's mostly just me going insane on #general-discussion at this point.
The initial excitement has waned by this point. I can't speak for others, but I can assure you that I'm still actively working on the levels that I've claimed on the spreadsheet. On the bright side, we have ~25% of possible levels inserted into the base ROM and ready for testing, which is good progress. A little over 50% of levels have been claimed. It would be more fun if other people in rao's community could join in as level makers, so we don't wind up with like, 10+ levels made by the same person (although that does end up happening in some collabs). Not that it's a bad thing, but having more diversity in level authors would be great.
SAJewers wrote: 3 months ago Yeah, we don't have to worry about it too much right now, but I would like to avoid what happened with A2XT1 where the levels and whatnot were all for the most part submitted and finalized, we figure out how the worlds will get constructed, then someone starts work on the overworld and everything stalls for like 6 months while we wait
There's plenty of things we can do while waiting for the overworld to be finished. We can work on the story/cutscenes, coding custom bosses, and of course, level testing. Only a few of us have reviewed levels so far. I hope more people will give their thoughts eventually. Any amount of feedback would be incredibly useful, even if the level author may not fully agree with it. Also, regarding the v0.99 levels-only release, would it have the final overworld, or would it just be a rudimentary placeholder?

Unrelated to the above, but in the chat I mentioned that it would be cool to have another silly little intro stage for the title sequence like in ASMT. Even if Demo is just walking through a literal fish market, or if we make her dance to some sick beats, it would be more interesting than just a static image, or having Demo stare down the SS Cotopaxi parrot.
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Re: And Another Thing - discussion thread

Post by SAJewers »

PSI Ninja wrote: 3 months agoIt would be more fun if other people in rao's community could join in as level makers, so we don't wind up with like, 10+ levels made by the same person (although that does end up happening in some collabs). Not that it's a bad thing, but having more diversity in level authors would be great.
I posted a reminder in the patapon spotzone last week, and had a few people showing interest, but knew nothing about smw hacking and were nervous about submitting. Maybe another set of announcements in places (and reassurances for people who have never done this before)
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