And Another Thing - discussion thread

name this garbage hack

Poll ended at 4 months ago

A Third Mario Thing
12
34%
And Another Thing
13
37%
A Different Mario Thing
0
No votes
One More Mario Thing
2
6%
An ASMT Thing
5
14%
A2MT2
0
No votes
R-Type Final 4
3
9%
 
Total votes: 35

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Re: A Third? Mario Thing (provisional name) - discussion thread

Post by KobaBeach »

sorry if i sound vague or nonsensical rn im functioning at half energy and im focusing on the ff tactics game that i have idled in the background for the past ten minutes because im procrastinating
TiKi wrote: 4 months ago
KobaBeach wrote: 4 months agoi think a big pitfall of collabs is like they strive to be as high quality as possible instead of being like a romhack collage, and with that comes a lot of ambition that they can never reach.
i presume this means my talk of "immersion" is antithetical to what this hack is supposed to be?
i guess kinda but im mostly just speaking out of my ass. im just really tired of collabs scope creeping so hard that they do stuff like designing it like it was a full blown indie game with massive changes and whatnot which i feel would fit a controlled team hack a lot more, mostly one composed of relative experts in their smw hacking areas. for example, extra mario world by team välfard.

smwcp2 and a2mt were doomed to fail by their sheer ambition, not that any of the other developmental nonsense helped. according to a friend similar stuff to this is why tsc left the vips after 3, and tsc practically helped birth vip, directing 1-3 (kookii of rock mario x fame ran 4, kinda messily at that; sig and homing ran 5 i believe, homing being the reason behind the delay; wagokoro and a revolving door of hosts ran 6; it's in the glossary page of the jp smw hacking wiki).

and if you think about it not even vip5 and vip6 are as ridiculous as smwcp2 and a2mt. not even jumphalf is like that. and jumphalf caused health complications for worldpeace and burnt everyone out to the point that iirc idol said something to the effect of "i'd rather work on another yump or mice than jump" and i think the quality end result of send your regrets to the czar is proof of that.

i remember a quote from like alex or whatever before he asked someone to delete all his posts here (which i dont blame him, they were majorly cringe and he seems to have moved on from a lot of the embarrassing shit here and on smwc) which was "we shot for the stars, and landed ten feet ahead" and i think it says a lot abt society
TiKi wrote: 4 months ago Oh and for that matter I never asked this in these terms so sorry, but am I fired from trying to make at least the vanilla SMW graphics (not users' custom graphics) all Demoified or is that part of it still on the table
i dont want to risk it, some people might still want vanilla graphics
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Re: A Third? Mario Thing (provisional name) - discussion thread

Post by TiKi »

Oh, so the idea is that people (like me) trying to make dedicated extra assets for a collab is a danger to the collab's success (or at least the participants' mental health)?
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Re: A Third? Mario Thing (provisional name) - discussion thread

Post by Disk Poppy »

I think you're free to make graphics for this collab, just don't expect everything to be replaced with them, because then we will fall into a rabbit hole where we purge all vanilla assets
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Re: A Third? Mario Thing (provisional name) - discussion thread

Post by SAJewers »

KobaBeach wrote: 4 months ago sorry if i sound vague or nonsensical rn im functioning at half energy and im focusing on the ff tactics game that i have idled in the background for the past ten minutes because im procrastinating
TiKi wrote: 4 months ago
KobaBeach wrote: 4 months agoi think a big pitfall of collabs is like they strive to be as high quality as possible instead of being like a romhack collage, and with that comes a lot of ambition that they can never reach.
i presume this means my talk of "immersion" is antithetical to what this hack is supposed to be?
i guess kinda but im mostly just speaking out of my ass. im just really tired of collabs scope creeping so hard that they do stuff like designing it like it was a full blown indie game with massive changes and whatnot which i feel would fit a controlled team hack a lot more, mostly one composed of relative experts in their smw hacking areas. for example, extra mario world by team välfard.

smwcp2 and a2mt were doomed to fail by their sheer ambition, not that any of the other developmental nonsense helped. according to a friend similar stuff to this is why tsc left the vips after 3, and tsc practically helped birth vip, directing 1-3 (kookii of rock mario x fame ran 4, kinda messily at that; sig and homing ran 5 i believe, homing being the reason behind the delay; wagokoro and a revolving door of hosts ran 6; it's in the glossary page of the jp smw hacking wiki).

and if you think about it not even vip5 and vip6 are as ridiculous as smwcp2 and a2mt. not even jumphalf is like that. and jumphalf caused health complications for worldpeace and burnt everyone out to the point that iirc idol said something to the effect of "i'd rather work on another yump or mice than jump" and i think the quality end result of send your regrets to the czar is proof of that.

i remember a quote from like alex or whatever before he asked someone to delete all his posts here (which i dont blame him, they were majorly cringe and he seems to have moved on from a lot of the embarrassing shit here and on smwc) which was "we shot for the stars, and landed ten feet ahead" and i think it says a lot abt society
TiKi wrote: 4 months ago Oh and for that matter I never asked this in these terms so sorry, but am I fired from trying to make at least the vanilla SMW graphics (not users' custom graphics) all Demoified or is that part of it still on the table
i dont want to risk it, some people might still want vanilla graphics
Honestly, if this is run like the previous 2 advent projects (especially the last one), where anything kinda goes, anyone can submit anything without much restriction (outside of things necessary to keep extra work off the project managers, and intentional garbage), and any sort of grand ambition is checked by the requirement that it gets done before it's considered, that's what we should aim for.

edit: to add, if someone has some big idea for this, that's fine, but it needs to actually happen and get posted first.

edit2: basically mostly this from raocow
raocow wrote: 9 years ago I just want to say this right now after reading a few posts:

Let's try not to extend too much what we can do. The thing like, say, using lives as gateways and whatnot - this is the way I see it. If you can somehow work this on your level, and then other levels can benefit from it, awesome. However, let's not hinge the game on something that is theoretical. This kind of happened with a2mt and.. well, it's not finished. asmbxt is meant to be a 'simple, without pretention' project, after all!

Personally, I like the idea of a hub for one reason and one reason only:

I really, really want to keep a 'laissez faire' attitude to the project as much as possible. And I kind of want to 'accept' every level we have. BUT, with a hub, this means we can easily hide the more junky AND the more unreasonable levels in the environment, and so make them not really count as 'the main game'.

I honestly think that if receive several 'junk' levels, for lack of a better word, we just put them all in a secret world that is very explicitely mentionned as such. ... though perhaps in a more polite way. Highly unreasonable levels could be hidden within the hub, with perhaps hints in later parts of the hub in how to access them, and whatnot.

I guess the reason why i'm a LITTLE hesitant about this, however, is that it implies that someone will have to take the time to design and make this ...
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Re: A Third? Mario Thing (provisional name) - discussion thread

Post by KobaBeach »

SAJewers wrote: 4 months ago Honestly, if this is run like the previous 2 advent projects (especially the last one), where anything kinda goes, anyone can submit anything without much restriction (outside of things necessary to keep extra work off the project managers, and intentional garbage), and any sort of grand ambition is checked by the requirement that it gets done before it's considered, that's what we should aim for.
eh maybe? i dont really have a set standard for how i run this im mostly winging it. i guess it's close to what you explained. what disk poppy said applies tho
SAJewers wrote: 4 months ago anyone can submit anything without much restriction (outside of things necessary to keep extra work off the project managers, and intentional garbage)
doing smug anime girl face at this part tho

if it's funny enough and doesn't fuck with anything much i wont reject it, that's the rule of vip quality
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Re: A Third? Mario Thing (provisional name) - discussion thread

Post by SAJewers »

Yeah that's probably the best way to do this really. Just like raocow said those years ago for asmbxt, let's do the opposite of a2mt and try to keep things as open as possible while not keeping the project hinging on something theoretical.

edit: anyway re:graphics, I think priority should be porting the new a2xt2 graphics to smw. after that, if someone wants to make more new graphics for stuff that's fine as long people aren't required to use it
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Re: A Third? Mario Thing (provisional name) - discussion thread

Post by KobaBeach »

SAJewers wrote: 4 months ago Yeah that's probably the best way to do this really. Just like raocow said those years ago for asmbxt, let's do the opposite of a2mt and try to keep things as open as possible while not keeping the project hinging on something theoretical.
I will add one thing, if we feel like doing an A4MT or AYAT (And Yet Another Thing), depending on the name. I will wait like 1 year for people to rest properly. A2MT's problems were not helped by starting brainstorming less than a month into the LP and with it, the initial final build of ASMT. I didn't check Alex's OP in Internet Archive but rao's reply about the overworld idea (which is honestly neat and I've thought about replicating it myself on a personal hack, but it's not fit for a collab) was like April 7th, and the LP thread started around March 10th. So yeah.
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Re: A Third? Mario Thing (provisional name) - discussion thread

Post by TiKi »

my only question is how did they expect smbx 1.3 to use lives as a gateway/toll booth. that doesn't exist in vanilla smbx afaik and has always been a historical strength of it IMO

i'm sorry for hyperfocusing on that it's just... what
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Re: A Third? Mario Thing (provisional name) - discussion thread

Post by TiKi »

SAJewers wrote: 4 months ago Yeah that's probably the best way to do this really. Just like raocow said those years ago for asmbxt, let's do the opposite of a2mt and try to keep things as open as possible while not keeping the project hinging on something theoretical.

edit: anyway re:graphics, I think priority should be porting the new a2xt2 graphics to smw. after that, if someone wants to make more new graphics for stuff that's fine as long people aren't required to use it
so are the a2xt2 graphics required to be used either or...?
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Re: A Third? Mario Thing (provisional name) - discussion thread

Post by KobaBeach »

Okay I was slightly wrong: Sig and Mitsuyoshi, who did SMB Plus, ran 5, with Homing and - after the revolving door - Wagokoro running 6.

According to a friend, TSC left after 3 because he felt that everything he wanted to do was done. Looking back on what VIP3 did compared to other hacks of like 2007, Mode 7 boss, custom music, asm etc, it makes sense.
SAJewers wrote: 4 months ago edit: anyway re:graphics, I think priority should be porting the new a2xt2 graphics to smw. after that, if someone wants to make more new graphics for stuff that's fine as long people aren't required to use it
@a2xt2, Shouldn't be too hard. It's mostly a matter of copypasting them in the graphics binaries and editing them to fit the palette, which isn't too hard in the .NET version of YY-CHR. Replacing Demo's sprites will be a bit harder tho due to Mario's sprite being more dynamic.

There might be a tool for editing Mario's sprites, I'm not sure.

As for the rest, I agree.
TiKi wrote: 4 months ago so are the a2xt2 graphics required to be used either or...?
Global graphics are basically global unless people want to use others. For example, a stage by Nao that I still have to insert uses the bell flower venuses from further over there. Nothing is really required, I don't have any interest in keeping this fully consistent.
TiKi wrote: 4 months ago my only question is how did they expect smbx 1.3 to use lives as a gateway/toll booth. that doesn't exist in vanilla smbx afaik and has always been a historical strength of it IMO

i'm sorry for hyperfocusing on that it's just... what
what does this mean
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Re: A Third? Mario Thing (provisional name) - discussion thread

Post by KobaBeach »

Okay we've decided as a cum-munity, and the cru has chosen that any redrawn tilesets will be optional and included as ExGFX rather than global

User 1: "actually tiki's posts made me think if are you gonna replace the vanilla graphics (GFXxx) when someone draws a replacement for them, or are they gonna be inserted as ExGFX?"
User 2: "ExGFX please. Going back and checking if graphics have been messed up sounds like a pain."
User 3: "anyway, i think we should definitely keep using vanilla gfx apart from sprites"
User 2: "Yeah it's fine to replace sprites."
User 3: "imo every sprite should be redrawn (and consistent across the collab) except for special reasons.. i don't think this will be too hard to do? since the vanilla sprites are already all replaced"
User 3: "and a whole bunch of custom sprites too but foregrounds etc should stay"
This Dumb Bitch: "i dont want custom tilesets apart from asmt blocks"
This Dumb Bitch: "like People Want Vanilla"
User 2: "Yeah question, cement blocks, and the like are fine."

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Re: A Third? Mario Thing (provisional name) - discussion thread

Post by TiKi »

Yeah, I don't think I wanna do this anymore if most people want the foregrounds and backgrounds to be SMW, if I'm reading that correctly. What is it that other people don't find appealing about the Demoverse being its own separate thing? I don't get it. In my mind, a Mario game should look like a Mario game, and a Demo game should look like a Demo game.
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Re: A Third? Mario Thing (provisional name) - discussion thread

Post by KobaBeach »

TiKi wrote: 4 months ago Yeah, I don't think I wanna do this anymore if most people want the foregrounds and backgrounds to be SMW, if I'm reading that correctly. What is it that other people don't find appealing about the Demoverse being its own separate thing? I don't get it. In my mind, a Mario game should look like a Mario game, and a Demo game should look like a Demo game.
it's more that you're asking for too much out of a mario collab, especially if it's smw. smbx might be more plausible for this to happen but. i dunno
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Re: A Third? Mario Thing (provisional name) - discussion thread

Post by Ditocoaf »

TiKi wrote: 4 months ago Yeah, I don't think I wanna do this anymore if most people want the foregrounds and backgrounds to be SMW, if I'm reading that correctly. What is it that other people don't find appealing about the Demoverse being its own separate thing? I don't get it. In my mind, a Mario game should look like a Mario game, and a Demo game should look like a Demo game.
I think this isn't first and foremost "a demo game", it's primarily "hey let's do a talkhaus smw romhack, and make sure it's as easy as possible for people to do a level if they want to" (which appeals to me, I'm hoping to do a level if I find time to relearn how to smw and make something i feel good about). If Demo and the "a thing" naming scheme are being used, it's just because this is a talkhaus project and it feels wrong to leave those calling cards out. Fully demo-verse-ing the project would add constraints and requirements to the level makers, and the tone of this is meant to be more open-ended than that.

(Correct me if I have the wrong idea, Koba. I sometimes feel like I'm good at explaining things and wanted to jump in, but I'm just lurking this thread so far otherwise.)
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Re: A Third? Mario Thing (provisional name) - discussion thread

Post by EllenHouraisan »

I really don't understand the whole "a Demo game should look like a Demo game" thing, because Demo games have always looked like Mario, no? Like, A2XT does a lot of sprite replacements and whatnot, but it's still very evidently Mario. You can't really separate the two unless you made an official collab featuring Demo for a completely original game on an engine that has nothing to do with Mario, like Unity or something, with fully original graphics and design completely divorced from Mario. But I don't see that happening because it would be a ton of work and people here are comfortable working on Lunar Magic and SMBX, so why bother. Besides, even if you eliminate every trace of Mario graphics from the baserom, there'll still be people who would use the vanilla graphics either for gags or personal preference (look at how many times you see regular SMB3 Bowser in A2XT). And that's not to mention all the other graphics from other games that get used as well.

Like, I dunno, the Demoverse as it were has always been a huge crossover fanfic thing anyways, so I simply don't get where Tiki's coming from with this.
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Re: A Third? Mario Thing (provisional name) - discussion thread

Post by KobaBeach »

Ditocoaf wrote: 4 months ago
TiKi wrote: 4 months ago Yeah, I don't think I wanna do this anymore if most people want the foregrounds and backgrounds to be SMW, if I'm reading that correctly. What is it that other people don't find appealing about the Demoverse being its own separate thing? I don't get it. In my mind, a Mario game should look like a Mario game, and a Demo game should look like a Demo game.
I think this isn't first and foremost "a demo game", it's primarily "hey let's do a talkhaus smw romhack, and make sure it's as easy as possible for people to do a level if they want to" (which appeals to me, I'm hoping to do a level if I find time to learn how to smw). If Demo and the "a thing" naming scheme are being used, it's just because this is a talkhaus project and it feels wrong to leave those calling cards out. Fully demo-verse-ing the project would add constraints and requirements to the level makers, and the tone of this is meant to be more open-ended than that.

(Correct me if I'm wrong, I just felt like I could explain.)
EllenHouraisan wrote: 4 months ago I really don't understand the whole "a Demo game should look like a Demo game" thing, because Demo games have always looked like Mario, no? Like, A2XT does a lot of sprite replacements and whatnot, but it's still very evidently Mario. You can't really separate the two unless you made an official collab featuring Demo for a completely original game on an engine that has nothing to do with Mario, like Unity or something, with fully original graphics and design completely divorced from Mario. But I don't see that happening because it would be a ton of work and people here are comfortable working on Lunar Magic and SMBX, so why bother. Besides, even if you eliminate every trace of Mario graphics from the baserom, there'll still be people who would use the vanilla graphics either for gags or personal preference (look at how many times you see regular SMB3 Bowser in A2XT). And that's not to mention all the other graphics from other games that get used as well.

Like, I dunno, the Demoverse as it were has always been a huge crossover fanfic thing anyways, so I simply don't get where Tiki's coming from with this.
Pree much, Teeks is just expecting way too much, especially from a SMW collab. Rejecting vanilla stuff, for example music, which YK joked about on Discordhaus (bad experience with the athletic tune lmao), or graphics, is a slippery slope to increasing scope by the sheer nature of trying to have everything as consistent as possible. And with the finite space of a ROM of a 4MB SNES cartridge...

-----------------------

And really, while avoiding an A2MT situation is a primary goal, avoiding A2XT2 style scope creep is a secondary goal. I'm trying to be as flexible as possible for this to be able to have a sort of release regardless of any extra ASM we want to add, which for the time being I want to keep it to bosses, especially since PSI Ninja and I believe someone else are willing to aid with that.

And also, I just want SMW beginners to be able to make a few levels and practice. The sheer dissonance of an expert author's level vs. a beginner's level is probably the closest thing to the soul of a collab in my eyes. I feel like filing the edges and making sure everything is as high quality as possible is kind of diluting the essence, at least in my eyes. Lastly if we keep up weird requirements and whatnot, the chance of this being finished is much lower.

My main inspiration is ASMT1 and ASMBXT. A2XT and A2MT are not fit to serve as role models for a collab like this, especially with a community that hasn't touched SMW in years outside of a recent contest. I don't know if we'll ever be able to run a collab like A2MT or JUMP 1/2 again, even if I'm in charge. There's a lot I don't know in terms of SMW hacking and I really don't want to put pressure on my fellow ASMers until they burn out and start avoiding the collab altogether as has happened many times before to other projects.

I do feel that of the few stages I've seen, mostly Nao's, the level design quality may increase a bit, but that's still to be determined. All in all, even if we get amateur stages, I'm ready to accept them. I might give some feedback on YouTube-esque stages, but other than that... As for stuff that basically requires retry, I've removed the Mode 7 patch due to it being unnecessary, thus retry can be added, maybe through UberASM. However, I don't want to risk there being an increase of Kaizo-esque levels, resulting in a YUMP 2 situation.

No offense to Kaizo folk, personally I and another user want to keep this relatively Standard, with a possible few levels requiring retry for good gameplay flow, basically stages that have quick reflex level design similar to Mice, slurdgery, Celeste, Super Meat Boy. It could change if members opine. Opine, now that's a word I don't really use.
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Re: And Another Thing - discussion thread

Post by KobaBeach »

And we have a winner for the name! By one vote!

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As I understand there was some trepidation with using the name A3MT due to it possibly inspiring scope creep, but honestly I'm neutral.
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Re: And Another Thing - discussion thread

Post by EllenHouraisan »

Aww dagnabbit! :gravytea:
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Re: And Another Thing - discussion thread

Post by Grounder »

Why don't you eat me?

I am perfectly tasty...

AND I'LL STEAL YOUR SOUL! :twisted:

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Re: And Another Thing - discussion thread

Post by TiKi »

oh i can't find the post especially on mobile but a2mt's bosses being changed to obstacle courses? was that because no one wanted to make actual bosses?

(i should mention that Whispy Woods in TSRP2 and King Charlie are great bosses despite basically being that; I was just wondering about the motive behind the change)
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Re: And Another Thing - discussion thread

Post by KobaBeach »

TiKi wrote: 4 months ago oh i can't find the post especially on mobile but a2mt's bosses being changed to obstacle courses? was that because no one wanted to make actual bosses?
i think you're not registering that bosses and complex sprites are just really hard to make if you're not experienced, which was the case in a2mt since it was like early 10s smwcers and a few talkhausers working on asm, along with people just flat out being burnt out and a lot of the game's code and levels clashing and breaking with one another under the hood

saying that people didn't want to make actual bosses is kinda dismissive, people tried but the game was a mess internally
Grounder wrote: 4 months ago video
😎😎😎😎😎😎😎😎😎😎😎

i'm thinking the subtitle will be A Third Mario Thing just as a tie-in and to also be a play on words, though Heraga and camwoodstock (and Tori? im not sure how she feels about it, im not good at handling headmates) have expressed concern that it could like bring with it the insanity of A2MT... hmm

I feel like the focus should be on And Another Thing to denote that this isn't gonna be a real follow up to A2MT scopewise
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Re: And Another Thing - discussion thread

Post by camwoodstock »

KobaBeach wrote: 4 months ago
TiKi wrote: 4 months ago oh i can't find the post especially on mobile but a2mt's bosses being changed to obstacle courses? was that because no one wanted to make actual bosses?
i think you're not registering that bosses and complex sprites are just really hard to make if you're not experienced, which was the case in a2mt since it was like early 10s smwcers and a few talkhausers working on asm, along with people just flat out being burnt out and a lot of the game's code and levels clashing and breaking with one another under the hood

saying that people didn't want to make actual bosses is kinda dismissive, people tried but the game was a mess internally
Grounder wrote: 4 months ago video
😎😎😎😎😎😎😎😎😎😎😎

i'm thinking the subtitle will be A Third Mario Thing just as a tie-in and to also be a play on words, though Heraga and camwoodstock (and Tori? im not sure how she feels about it, im not good at handling headmates) have expressed concern that it could like bring with it the insanity of A2MT... hmm

I feel like the focus should be on And Another Thing to denote that this isn't gonna be a real follow up to A2MT scopewise
&: You got it right, don't worry. ;p

tbh if we had to pick a subtitle "a third mario thing: a different mario thing" would be good. both bc a3mt DOES actually have a snappy ring to it in terms of a subtitle, it being the subtitle and not the main title is a lot better. also including "a different mario thing" as a sub-subtitle would just be for silly, considering CYBERDIGITAL A2XTG2's full title is similarly silly
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Re: And Another Thing - discussion thread

Post by Argumentable »

lol
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Re: And Another Thing - discussion thread

Post by KobaBeach »

Argumentable wrote: 4 months agolol
it's still gonna be better than smwcp2's zombie release whenever that happens
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Argumentable
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Re: And Another Thing - discussion thread

Post by Argumentable »

I haven't actually followed anything romhack related for years. I could make a more serious post about it - I would like to see another cool collab romhack - but I think "lol" sums up my feelings pretty nicely
I'm on Twitter and Discord so say hi to me on there cause I like to vanish from here forever repeatedly also I have sigs off so I can make my sig as ugly as I want and it won't bother me this is my sig btw

Argumentable#6424 if you wanna discord me
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