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Kirby Thing(NES-ish Kirby engine, maybe Make A Good Kirby?)

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DinnerSonic
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Kirby Thing(NES-ish Kirby engine, maybe Make A Good Kirby?)

Postby DinnerSonic » 7 months ago

So, hi there! I'm DinnerSonic, you might know me from A2XT as "he made a snow level I guess" or from MaGL X as the guy who made a level with a dead Yoshi Baby joke. Maybe you heard of Thingio or Super Mario Melatonin? Or maybe you know me as the guy who programmed certain Cat Girl game?

Anyways none of that is important, what's important is I'm toying with a NES-ish Kirby game engine, whenever I've got free time at least! Blame raocow's KA playthrough.
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So far, I've got a decent chunk of Kirby features in already, most modeled after Kirby's Adventure but sometimes with modern Kirby tweaks.
  • Dashing, which doesn't go away if you turn ala Smash Bros
  • Sliding, which can go in 8 pixel tall holes
  • Jumping with KA style physics(which I guess are like Mega Man's?)
  • Falling on Kirby's face if falling far enough
  • Tap down in the air twice to fall quickly like the new games
  • Bonking on walls when you run, jump, fall, etc
  • Different idle/walk/bonk sprite angles for slopes(a tiny bit wonky still)
  • Flying
  • Un-flying puff thingy
  • Climbing(which is a default feature of the platform engine I'm using actually so nevermind)
  • Inhaling
  • Exhaling stars
  • Exhaling bigger stars depending on the number of enemies
  • ... no swallowing or abilities yet because that's when I got swamped with stuff a few days ago, dang
  • Various engine preparations for both having lots of abilities and potentially different characters(ala Meta Knightmare)
  • Okay so abilities aren't in yet but I've experimented with this before I swear
[/spoiler]I guess it's still got a ways to go, but it's also a ways in, right? I'm posting this both to show off what I have done, and also to ask:

If I finished this, put in a bunch of abilities both old and new(think Kirby Super Star style, giving each one several attacks), toss in enemies/minibosses, added enough features, and tossed a level editor at you all(It would use a program called Tiled Map Editor, a free map editor that was used by games like Shovel Knight), would anyone be interested in a Make A Good Kirby Level Contest when it's fleshed out? What would you all like to see in the engine? Should I do polls to find out what enemies or gimmicks people might want? Would you all still like to see at least SOME kinda Kirby thing if the contest wouldn't interest you all?

(Is this even the right place to post it? I want to Showcase a Project, but I also want to maybe Center a Contest, but, only after checking what people think.)

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Re: Kirby Thing(NES-ish Kirby engine, maybe Make A Good Kirby?)

Postby Pyro » 7 months ago

This sounds super awesome, I'd definitely be interested in a contest for this kind of thing! Looking forward to what comes out of this!
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Re: Kirby Thing(NES-ish Kirby engine, maybe Make A Good Kirby?)

Postby CrappyBlueLuigi » 7 months ago

a kirby level contest sounds super fun! and if you set up a contest with this engine, i'd definitely suggest going a similar route to MAGMML and having a poll for what abilities to include. it'd be super unreasonable to expect you to code, say, all 27 copy abilities that are in planet robobot. maybe somewhere more around 10-14 copy abilities, like a middle-ground between the dream land games' (& kirby 64's) default ability set without animal friends/ability combos and the large number of copy abilities kirby games have typically had since super star.

considering you're aiming to have abilities with multiple moves, super-star-and-onward style, you shouldn't need to have an abundance of abilities/ability variations to compensate for their simplicity, a la kirby's adventure and the dream land series.

though, if you run a poll, and plasma/spark isn't one of the winners... you're all dead to me.

on a note more pertaining to the engine, the preview looks really solid! though i feel the camera shouldn't need to extend out so far. kirby is typically not a game that's fast-paced enough that you need to see that far ahead of yourself to adequately prepare for upcoming obstacles and stuff. also, the camera motion when turning around feels pretty not-kirby-ish and just wonky in general. it moves too slow, but if it moved any faster it'd be jarring or disorienting, so instead i think it should just have less distance to move. just my two cents.
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Re: Kirby Thing(NES-ish Kirby engine, maybe Make A Good Kirby?)

Postby Ivy » 7 months ago

Who needs copy abilities? Let's do a make a good dream land contest right now
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Re: Kirby Thing(NES-ish Kirby engine, maybe Make A Good Kirby?)

Postby Rockythechao » 7 months ago

If you're going for a mix of Adventure and more modern Kirby I'd say the view size works well enough. I agree it might be better to stick to a simple center-snapped camera, though, but if you really want to do something fancy with it I'd recommend taking a look at how Mario World and other classic platformers handle their cameras.



http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/ItayKere ... ollers.php

I'd personally advise expanding on the camera functionality first -- make it so level creators can script the camera to follow any object, not just the player, or disable tracking entirely and shift it manually. This would help level creators with scripting events that require more precise control over the camera, like autoscrolling and minibosses. An offset parameter that'd allow users to keep the camera snapped to a target but off-center could also be useful in some situations.
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Re: Kirby Thing(NES-ish Kirby engine, maybe Make A Good Kirby?)

Postby DinnerSonic » 7 months ago

CBL: I've actually got a private list of different abilities I wanted to include/were plausible to include, what I might tweak or have to remove for them, etc, though it's definitely too big for this project unless I find out I can seriously streamline ability creation(though I'm hoping maybe I can?) so I might post said list as a poll when the engine is more completed? Though there's some abilities I feel either HAVE to be in(such as staple abilities like Sword or Cutter), or just really wanted to fool with/surprise people with(obscure/repurposed or new abilities). Maybe I'd poll for top 5/10 favorite abilities and then toss extra/must have/new ones on top of those?

Ivy: If I got Dream Land's powerups(mint leaf, curry) working I'd just be moments away from functioning genuine copy abilities(like Fire) already, right? I probably could push out a KDL engine faster than a copy ability using one since I have inhaling, stars, and whatever, but I still gotta stick in a good deal of features they'd both share(a non-hardcoded level format, doors, checkpoints, dance sequences)

If people wanted/cared, I probably could stick in a level header gimmick setting for KDL mode that disabled abilities, I dunno if that'd be confusing or not... maybe just greyscale enemy copies that lock their ability to Nothing?

Pyro: Thanks! Your MaGMML contest inspired me some, though the way mine would work would probably not allow custom code things like people did in some entries to it, since levels would just be external TMX files and associated tilesets, and it'd be made in Clickteam Fusion 2.5. I wonder if there's a way around that? Maybe just asking before the contest properly starts for any notable level gimmicks/elements I could add? A basic form of enemy graphics swapping like SMBX?

One thought, should I toss in features seen in other favorite Talkhaus games/level contests, or maybe avoid them? I could toss in solid Muncher/Instant Death Spike style tiles or other easy to make features that tend to lead to annoying levels, just for the option, or I could nip certain level design sins in the bud since they're not often in Kirby games. At the very least, I hope to do multiple exits/SMBX "Stars" and a basic NPC/sign sprite for flavor text. Perhaps a moving Layer 2 system if I can figure out how to safely "squash" players/enemies. (or I can just tell users to never squash the layers without death spikes)

Rockythechao Who Posted After I Finished This Post, And Also Perhaps CBL's Camera Spoiler I Missed Last Time: The camera right now is temporary, I think the default one from the engine example, but that's also an element I keep forgetting about. I probably planned somewhere to look at how Kirby handles its camera, but I wanted the core gameplay in first. I definitely wanted an autoscroll feature, locking cameras for minibosses, and perhaps Mega Man style locking for going from horizontal to vertical if I can figure how that works, and it shouldn't be too hard to have some basic event system to lock the camera to a specific sprite on screen(with the default being the player sprite) if that'd be useful. Thanks for the links, too, I'll definitely take them into account!

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Re: Kirby Thing(NES-ish Kirby engine, maybe Make A Good Kirby?)

Postby Rejnka » 7 months ago

just so you know adventure is quite possibly the worst artstyle you could have selected for this

ah well, you could still make it work out i guess

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Re: Kirby Thing(NES-ish Kirby engine, maybe Make A Good Kirby?)

Postby Rockythechao » 7 months ago

Could do what SMBX did with Link and the Zelda II npcs: revamped KA graphics. SNES-style Kirby's Adventure.

It's important to establish an art style that doesn't just look good but is simple enough to work with for custom assets. The GBA and DS graphics are too detailed for that.
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Re: Kirby Thing(NES-ish Kirby engine, maybe Make A Good Kirby?)

Postby DinnerSonic » 7 months ago

I was wondering about if the art stuff would cause issues or not. I was figuring it'd work out because of how Make a Good Mega Man Level happened, occasional 16-bit tilesets, music in different styles, etc., and I planned on not making restrictions too strict(There'd be a paralax BG layer or two so you weren't expected to do KA's fancy backgrounds but could do it SMBX/SMW style, even if it was 8-bit or not) but sticking with an 8-bit aesthetic could still cause issues, couldn't it...

I went with the KA style for a few reasons, it felt easier for me to work with, raocow LPed the game recently, and I just really like the style: Small, 16x16ish characters and all that. Ideally, while I kinda like working with the limits of making things feel 8-bit, I'd always wanted to see a revamped 16-bit KA style instead. Thing is, that'd require any enemies I put in, any default tilesets, bosses, etc, to be reshaded or revamped entirely, along with a whole lot of Kirby sprites. Kirby at least has a large amount of shaded Kirby's Adventure poses, most of his basic non inhaled and non attack poses, but that still leaves a great deal of poses and effect sprites unmade.

One other thought, while I'm here: I was looking at this from a "Make a Good Level Contest" angle, sorting levels in order of lowest to highest rank through several worlds, and sticking some bosses and minigames about. Still, there's the alternative of just making it a plain collab instead, having people contribute assets as well as levels, not worrying about if a level will rank high or not. Still, that takes it from potential quick month or so of level dev time to a who knows timescale, I've seen collabs kind of slow down or die off. On the other hand, a collab instead of a contest might encourage things like a bunch of reshaded sprites(or outright replacing enemies with Demo type equivalents?) from various people to help keep things in a more reasonable to work with 16-bit style?

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Re: Kirby Thing(NES-ish Kirby engine, maybe Make A Good Kirby?)

Postby Kapus » 6 months ago

What are you using to make this engine? Is it done in C++? It looks very nifty either way, and I personally have no issues with the artsyle (I grew up with Kirby's Adventure, I've always been fond of it). I feel it'd be convenient and coherent enough to make level designing for the engine easy as well.

A Make a Good Kirby Level contest sounds like a dream come true.

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Re: Kirby Thing(NES-ish Kirby engine, maybe Make A Good Kirby?)

Postby DinnerSonic » 6 months ago

Kapus wrote:What are you using to make this engine? Is it done in C++? It looks very nifty either way, and I personally have no issues with the artsyle (I grew up with Kirby's Adventure, I've always been fond of it). I feel it'd be convenient and coherent enough to make level designing for the engine easy as well.

A Make a Good Kirby Level contest sounds like a dream come true.
It's being made in Clickteam Fusion 2.5, using the RPM engine as a base since it had some features that seemed useful for Kirby, how it handles multiple "characters"(abilities) and so on. Plus it was nice to fool with an existing engine instead of going from scratch.

This bump of sorts also makes for a good excuse to say, well, that it's perhaps predictably been put on hold for a month or so due to personal/holiday reasons.

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Re: Kirby Thing(NES-ish Kirby engine, maybe Make A Good Kirby?)

Postby Kapus » 6 months ago

DinnerSonic wrote:
Kapus wrote:What are you using to make this engine? Is it done in C++? It looks very nifty either way, and I personally have no issues with the artsyle (I grew up with Kirby's Adventure, I've always been fond of it). I feel it'd be convenient and coherent enough to make level designing for the engine easy as well.

A Make a Good Kirby Level contest sounds like a dream come true.
It's being made in Clickteam Fusion 2.5, using the RPM engine as a base since it had some features that seemed useful for Kirby, how it handles multiple "characters"(abilities) and so on. Plus it was nice to fool with an existing engine instead of going from scratch.

This bump of sorts also makes for a good excuse to say, well, that it's perhaps predictably been put on hold for a month or so due to personal/holiday reasons.
Cool, great to know. I've been thinking about using Clickteam fusion for my own pet projects so I was pretty curious.


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