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Caution on Ambition

Revolution, the only solution, the armed response of an entire nation.

This is an RPG.
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swirlybomb
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Caution on Ambition

Post by swirlybomb »

incoming sheer walls of text



Just to be clear, I'm not trying to be a big ol' Negative Nancy about the prospects of this potential hack - I'd like to see it made just as much as the next person, and its existence has even got me in a "OH MAN FIRE EMBLEM" mental 'mode'. But so far I feel like there's not enough clarity on the scope of the project and/or what's actually realistically doable for the group that's interested in making this happen. As far as I'm aware, Markyjoe is the only one here that actually has experience with Fire Emblem hacking so far, and although obviously some of us are going to learn it ourselves, we probably should not be aiming for anything crazy and setting our sights a little lower.


Here's a rough outline of the bare minimum that needs to be done:

*The plot needs to be written and split up into chapters and maps
Each chapter needs:
-Story events
-Map with varying terrain, a goal, music, enemies, and a boss
Enemies need:
-Classes and levels; there is inherent randomization to levels/stats so I guess they just need to have an 'appropriate' level range for each chapter
-Strategic positioning; which ones are trouble, which are just cannon fodder?
-Equipment; usually 'generic' weapons, but there need to be individual units spread throughout that have consumables, droppable items, 'special' weapons that make them more dangerous, a variation of those with melee/ranged weapons
-What units are used as 'reinforcements' that don't appear on the map immediately, and where do they appear/what's their threat level?
Bosses need:
-A name and unique face/portrait appearance
-Boss-quality stats and equipment
-Are they guarding a point or are they mobile? This is a huge factor in their threat/challenge level
-Dialogue when first attacked (different for the 'main hero(es)' and the rest of your units) and when killed; additional dialogue for characters that have some kind of connection with them

*Classes need to be decided
Are we going to stick with vanilla classes? Change their names? 'Import' any from other games/create new ones?
Each new/altered class needs:
-Base stats and base stat growths
-Animations for standing still, attacking, critical attack (usually a weapon spin before attacking, but still), indirect/ranged attack, critical indirect/ranged attack, and evading; and that's all just for each inidividual weapon type. A class that uses more than one weapon needs to have the same animation for each weapon type they have (although that's only for actual weapon classes; magic classes just have a 'casting' attack animation and a critical version - although staff-using classes need a 'staff' animation as well). For vanilla classes this isn't a problem (and if there are already custom animations out there, those can be used), but trying to make a brand-new one would take a lot of work. Additionally, the 'main hero'/Lord class(es) tend to have 'special' animations for their 'special' weapons.
---Adding a new weapon type to a class is potentially as simple as merely using the same animation and redrawing the new weapon in place of the old, though it may be trickier for some classes
---This excludes map animations


Each individual character needs:
-Unique appearance and portrait
-Class (with individualized color palette; potentially slightly altered sprites if there are any NECESSARY minor details)
-Individual base stats and growth rates that are unique and differ from the 'generic' class stats
-When do they appear in the story? Do they join automatically as part of the natural plot? Are they recruited from the 'Other' team or even the enemy's side? And who recruits them (they need to have some kind of personal relation)?
-Support conversations with other characters;
---Supports in Fire Emblem allow for two characters to build a personal relationship, and give varying stat increases when they're in close proximity on the battlefield. Each character can potentially support multiple characters, but they're only allowed 5 conversations total, and a maximum relationship between two characters takes three conversations (C-level is usually 'acquaintances' and A is usually 'best friends forever' at the very least)
---Will we have supports though? Is the game too short for them, or could we just speed up how fast the process goes? Is it 'too much work' for a shorter game? However it IS the best way to flesh out character personalities and stuff without getting in the way of the main plot (especially outside the newer games that have 'Base' conversations).
-Recruitment dialogue, death dialogue, dialogue with other related characters/bosses

Weapons:
If they're going to be changed from Swords/Axes/Lances/Bows/Light/Dark/Anima/Staffs, what will they be changed to? Will we keep all the vanilla weapons, or change around some of the 'special' weapons/required weapon ranks/individual weapon stats? Will any individual names be changed (especially for magic)?
---For a shorter game, should Weapon Exp be increased so it's still plausible for characters to attain high/max weapon ranks before the endgame? Same for normal Exp; can/should experience yields be increased so it's plausible to reach maximum promoted levels by the endgame, or does it not matter?


This isn't necessarily an extensive list (or is it?).
See also viewtopic.php?f=50&t=14548&start=100#p205010 for other info.



Granted, perhaps I am putting too much thought into this, but I feel like someone needs to.

viewtopic.php?f=50&t=14548&start=75#p204776
markyjoe1990 wrote:Alright, so I just read the Talkhaus Revolution doc, and I'm going to point out that pretty much nothing in here is too hard to do. As far as I'm concerned, you don't even need to change map graphics (thank god).

At the minimum, this project's most essential requisites are as follows:
- Events
- Maps
- Text
- Portraits
- Battle animation palettes.

All of these are easy to do except for the custom events, but thankfully I made a tutorial on how to do that, not to mention there's at least two other tutorials on it as well.

The most ambitious things this project requires are some new battle animations and custom classes if we truly intend to go along with raocow and D.E.M.O.'s boss shenanigans. Though, we could just opt for the lazy option and just import battle animations from Fire Emblem: The Sacred stones for D.E.M.O. and raocow's devil form, then use the FE7 Dragon for raocow's final.

Extra credit work would be music, which is WAY easier to do in Fire Emblem hacking than Mario hacking, and uh... Actually, I think that's it really. I feel I should ask though. I've only skimmed through this thread, but the implication I'm getting is that our party is going to constantly have members switch out. I'm a little disappointed by this, since part of FE's appeal is training up characters that join your team, and having them leave kind of takes that simple joy away. I think it's perfectly possible to keep members onto the team AND give them bits of dialogue here and there. That's what TALK and SUPPORT conversations are for. Of course, you could also file that under extra credit too.
This is probably what we should be aiming at, at least for now; perhaps once the game's made, then a 'special edition' could be worked on to make it bigger and better, but so far I think that's only hypothetical.


Right now I think priorities should be:
-Getting the plot ironed out and story written
-Classes and weapons/magic decided on, because they each influence eachother; of course, there's already this thread, and here's the most recent/thorough propositions by Sepentrion (though there's also the list copied to the OP of that thread).

After that, then we can try and get people to sign up as characters and possibly start writing dialogue (prioritizing 'main plot' dialogue over the 'minor character' dialogue)?
Not sure what the best way to handle individualized stats/growths are, and we're going to need willing and able character designers/artists/spriters at some point, assuming we don't just repurpose existing GBA character portraits (might be 'odd' to those that are really familiar with the existing characters, but could still be done). Most likely need custom animations for Demo/raocow though, unless (as Markyjoe mentioned) we be 'lazy' and take the final bosses from FE6/7/8 and just use those. There are spriters around here, of course, but their involvement can't be assumed unless they're directly asked and pledge their interest.
As for music, it'd probably be best to stick with vanilla music (and/or imported music if resources already exist) unless there's someone that really wants to make custom music.



More than willing to hear others' thoughts too, of course; call me a big stinky jerk if you like, that's fine too.



...Also, small proposition: judging by an FE7 LP I read/skimmed through, it seems like a number of FE7 characters have such abysmal Constitution compared to the general Weight of weapons that they pretty much are taking a Speed penalty on almost anything besides the weakest/lightest weapons. We should probably adjust Weight ratings on weapons to try and prevent that for the most part (or just have decent Constitution ratings for most characters).
anonymousbl00dlust wrote:All the obstacles in my level can be beaten on the players first attempt without any 'future predicting'.
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Leet
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Re: Caution on Ambition

Post by Leet »

its fire emblem not nobungas ambition!!11

(ha)
Well it is a decent hack but sometime its just too repetitif there no level that actually pop in your face and your like oh yeah that level they all ressemble themselves and just monster along the way.
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Re: Caution on Ambition

Post by Clamestarebla »

I understand the many (man that's a long list) many concerns you have about this project, but Markyjoe brought me back to Earth and that's why, for now, we should try to do a minimalistic but fun and playable game, then update it with new stuff as we go. Placeholders can be used in the earlier versions then be replaced by more beautiful, custom stuff.

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Re: Caution on Ambition

Post by swirlybomb »

Fair enough, just want to be sure everyone's on the same page here!
Kinda the point is that things actually have to be thought about carefully, we can't just throw things together haphazardly.
Leet wrote:its fire emblem not nobungas ambition!!11

(ha)
oh you
anonymousbl00dlust wrote:All the obstacles in my level can be beaten on the players first attempt without any 'future predicting'.
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Re: Caution on Ambition

Post by markyjoe1990 »

There's a good reason why FE7's cast had such "low" con. It's to make it so fast, dodgey characters are stuck with low-might weapons so they aren't dealing absurd amounts of damage due to doubling.

Compare to Fire Emblem: Awakening where there was no weight, and your knight units are always dealing poor damage and taking immense damage of their own, just because they are slow, and everything else is allowed to use whatever it wants without penalties.
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Re: Caution on Ambition

Post by swirlybomb »

Oh Fire Emblem, will you ever find a good way to handle weapon weight?

But yeah, I see what you mean. And also I suppose that every point of Speed gained technically counteracts a point being lost from weight. But I just still think that taking a speed penalty from Iron weapons is rather pathetic and should probably be avoided if possible. That's just my take on it.
anonymousbl00dlust wrote:All the obstacles in my level can be beaten on the players first attempt without any 'future predicting'.
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Re: Caution on Ambition

Post by markyjoe1990 »

swirlybomb wrote:Oh Fire Emblem, will you ever find a good way to handle weapon weight?

But yeah, I see what you mean. And also I suppose that every point of Speed gained technically counteracts a point being lost from weight. But I just still think that taking a speed penalty from Iron weapons is rather pathetic and should probably be avoided if possible. That's just my take on it.
Most units don't suffer speed loss from Iron weapons. I think iron weapon speed loss is primarily the territory of pegasus riders, and I believe there is a good reason behind that.
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Re: Caution on Ambition

Post by swirlybomb »

Those darn Pegasus Knights, what are they even good for?
...Don't answer that because I do know what they're good for, I'm just trying to make a funny.
anonymousbl00dlust wrote:All the obstacles in my level can be beaten on the players first attempt without any 'future predicting'.
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