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SMBX Boss Contest Discussion

would you like to participate in some fun contests? would you like to create some fun contests? well ^_^
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Dragon Fogel
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SMBX Boss Contest Discussion

Post by Dragon Fogel »

So people in the MAGLX3 thread have been talking about possibly doing a standalone MAFAB contest. I thought it would be good to have a place to talk about it.

Some questions to start off, which are obviously not meant to be exhaustive and people should not feel obligated to answer all of them, especially as I'm just some guy who made a thread and not acting in any sort of official capacity here:
-Who is going to run it?
-When should it happen? As soon as we figure out who's running it and they're ready to get started? After the MAGLX3 LP wraps up? In a year or so?
-What constraints should there be on entries? How do we define what a "boss" is? Do we extend it beyond bosses, but not to the extent of full levels?
-How long should the entry period be? Very short again, or somewhat longer? Maybe a short period but the timer starts when you get your prompt?
-There have been concerns about the eventual compilation being too repetitive. What can we do to prevent that, or is it not worth worrying that much about?
-Should it have a public gimmick or do we do a surprise one chosen by raocow again (provided he's up for that)? Or do we just leave this up to whoever the organizer is?
-What do we call it? MAFAB 3? MAFAB 2.5? Something else entirely?

This is probably not going to be as largescale as a MAGL X contest, but I imagine it will get more entries than MAFAB 1 or 2 did, even if we still have a short entry period.

So far, I haven't seen anybody express specific interest in running the contest. I'm willing to take a shot at it, but I don't think I could commit to this for at least a few months due to other projects I have going on. Also I'm very rusty on SMBX. Still, willing to put myself forward in the event nobody else is particularly interested.

Of course, anyone who is interested should feel free to speak up!
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Re: SMBX Boss Contest Discussion

Post by ano0maly »

Dragon Fogel wrote: 2 years ago-Who is going to run it?
You
-When should it happen? As soon as we figure out who's running it and they're ready to get started? After the MAGLX3 LP wraps up? In a year or so?
I guess if this is going to be another talkhaus flagship contest it should be after MAGLX3 concludes, but it can be at any point, really.
-What constraints should there be on entries? How do we define what a "boss" is? Do we extend it beyond bosses, but not to the extent of full levels?
Right now I don't think it's necessary to disqualify entries for not counting as bosses, but you can always penalize entries in the score for missing the point of the event.
-How long should the entry period be? Very short again, or somewhat longer? Maybe a short period but the timer starts when you get your prompt?
I like the idea of giving a minimum amount of time to each contestant even after signups ended. Otherwise, last minute signups can cause issues with back and forth communication.
-There have been concerns about the eventual compilation being too repetitive. What can we do to prevent that, or is it not worth worrying that much about?
I don't think this will be too much of a problem. There can be a variety of ideas on what a boss is and how it's implemented, and it can even be pretty fun to have a boss rush or collection of sorts.
-Should it have a public gimmick or do we do a surprise one chosen by raocow again (provided he's up for that)? Or do we just leave this up to whoever the organizer is?
Not sure, but do contests normally have their gimmicks posted that far in advance? Particularly with how people were referencing the SMWC 24 hour contests as comparisons. I just think people should have time to anticipate the contest itself.
-What do we call it? MAFAB 3? MAFAB 2.5? Something else entirely?
It depends on whether it's meant to be the continuation of the 'official' talkhaus events or just some other SMBX contest.
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Re: SMBX Boss Contest Discussion

Post by Rixithechao »

So I saved this as a draft for the LP thread, but since the conversation has since moved on over there...
I am 100% down for a standalone Make a Fun Awesome Boss 3vent :rao:

Traditional arena fight-style boss encounters are fun to make, but SMBX2 has so much unexplored potential for cool dynamic action sequences! Gauntlets, escapes, chases...
So I guess those are my answers to "what do we call it?" and "how do we define what a 'boss' is?"

To clarify, I think "a climactic action/puzzle sequence based on some sort of conflict" or something in that general ballpark should be a flexible enough definition if a specific one is needed.

Having the contest after the MaGLX3 LP concludes would probably be best so it's not competing for attention, and personally I'd prefer it if we'd have more time to work on our entries. But as long as there's enough advance notice I'm okay with the signup/submission period being anywhere between those of the first and second MaFABs.

And as happy as I am about this potentially becoming a thing, I wouldn't want to be the one to run it. I doubt I'd make for a good host or judge, and I'd want to actually enter the contest myself.
Last edited by Rixithechao 2 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: SMBX Boss Contest Discussion

Post by Zygl »

-How long should the entry period be? Very short again, or somewhat longer? Maybe a short period but the timer starts when you get your prompt?
Given the subject arose specifically from the fact that we haven't had one that's been "easy" to participate in, it should probably just be run like a normal contest this time, with a sensible amount of time to enter. Maybe less than the two months MaGL X3 was, since it's just a boss rather than an entire level, but at least one month? Something people will actually be able to enter if they want.
-There have been concerns about the eventual compilation being too repetitive. What can we do to prevent that, or is it not worth worrying that much about?
I've had two ideas for this:
1) We could preface each boss with a short thematically-connected mini-level. Nothing particularly involved, just a nice short little thing to set the mood/space out the bosses. We could pretty much get anybody willing to help make them given they're not exactly part of what's being judged - we could even ask entrants to supply their own, provided it's clear that, again, we're not judging the level, it's a boss contest.
2) Or we could instead lean into the boss-rush density and just make the hub like the Kirby Arena rest area - beat the boss, come back to the nice peaceful room and read the comments and such, go in the door for the next boss.

Either way has the potential to be some cool shit, I think
-What do we call it? MAFAB 3? MAFAB 2.5? Something else entirely?
Just because it's not packaged with a MaGL X doesn't mean it's not a MaFAB :T Definitely MaFAB 3



I'm not uninterested in running it but I have no idea for a gimmick or rubric and would need to think about if I'm fit to judge a boss contest in the first place <.< To say nothing of making time for it.
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Re: SMBX Boss Contest Discussion

Post by Dragon Fogel »

ano0maly wrote: 2 years ago Not sure, but do contests normally have their gimmicks posted that far in advance? Particularly with how people were referencing the SMWC 24 hour contests as comparisons. I just think people should have time to anticipate the contest itself.
I agree it's pretty early to decide on what the gimmick should be. I'm just asking the more basic question of if we should actually tell people what they're in for this time, whatever that ends up being. If we decide on a public gimmick then I'm all for tossing wacky ideas out there.
ano0maly wrote: 2 years ago It depends on whether it's meant to be the continuation of the 'official' talkhaus events or just some other SMBX contest.
Well, given other people support just outright having this be MAFAB 3, I guess the main question is who has 'official' capacity to tell us whether we can or can't do that. Which is probably raocow. So basically if he's fine with it that's probably what we'll call it?
Rixithechao wrote: 2 years ago And as happy as I am about this potentially becoming a thing, I wouldn't want to be the one to run it. I doubt I'd make for a good host or judge, and I'd want to actually enter the contest myself.
Not that I expect this is your main concern personally, but in case it's anyone else's - if you just want to make a boss, the judges will probably do that too. It just won't be a boss that gets evaluated as part of the contest.

On the subject of presentation, here's an idea I've been thinking about: we present it as a story. Between bosses, there's an optional cutscene which shows how the "story" leads from the boss you just fought to the next one, no matter how weird that would be.

I kind of like this idea - I would personally enjoy coming up with scenes, especially if we got really weird combinations next to each other, and entrants might enjoy how it makes use of their work. But I also recognize there's a risk of the scenes overshadowing the entries themselves. And it would take time to implement them in SMBX, which could delay the final release. Still, thought I'd toss it out there.

(To be clear, the cutscenes would be made after the placements were settled. The lowest-ranking entry would be the first in the "story" and the highest-ranking would be the "final boss", no matter how little sense that might make. They would also be written in such a way as to not conflict with any cutscenes that are part of the entries themselves. Also, they would be very silly, in case I haven't been clear on that.)

I guess this is kind of like Zyg's first idea, but with a cutscene instead of a mini-level?
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Re: SMBX Boss Contest Discussion

Post by Emral »

1 month seems like a reasonable amount of time for submissions. Maybe 5-6 weeks to allow people to get familiar with stuff if need be. There are libraries out there like my fancy little boss toolkit that people might want to play around with, after all.

Something that's on my mind: I've seen a couple of people express displeasure with the contest format since the MAGLX3 lp started, for better or for worse, so I've kinda been thinking how we might be able to innovate on the formula a little to steer it more towards the direction of "a short little thing exclusively featuring bosses" while retaining a competitive aspect. In the thread, the idea of having it be a game jam-type deal was mentioned. Those are generally community-judged. Devising a rubric of scores of fun/presentation/replayability/gimmick or whathaveyou with an /5 ranking system for each would be easy to understand, I reckon. Just gotta get enough people playing the bosses! But shouting never failed.
Regardless of whether that idea comes to fruition, I think the idea of rewarding contestants with awards regardless of placement would be a fun way to make sure everyone has a positive experience participating. I hosted a contest over on the SMBX forums a while ago that handed out 37 medals across 24 levels, each getting at least one, and the system has swiftly crept into a contest staple over there.

As for structure: I think a Kirby Arena-style story mode with (skippable) cutscenes would be cute! I would suggest also including some kind of versus mode, though, so people can just access the entire boss archive easily.

I would like to participate for sure, but if we do some kind of community judging, I would also make sure to leave ratings for all the submissions.
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Re: SMBX Boss Contest Discussion

Post by TaviTurnip »

I really like the fact that thus far the two MaFABs have been very short and sweet with submissions, kinda like a game or art jam? (What I'm hearing is that I should, in fact, join game jams.) But I think it should be okay if a contest that is detached from a main MaGL X was longer or gave people more time, especially when it's been two years since we've done anything.
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Re: SMBX Boss Contest Discussion

Post by Rixithechao »

I don’t think we should commit to anything about the compilation episode until after the submission period has ended. Like, I can see where the “deliberately-obtuse gimmick for the sake of keeping the submission count manageable” argument for MaFAB2 is coming from but the logic still feels a bit backwards to me. Let’s not put too much energy into trying to make the episode work in advance and just tackle it when we’ll know what the game is actually being built around.

With that said, for the sake of having my two cents on what’s been said already written up for when it’s time to revisit this stuff...

I like the idea of trying to tie everything together with a narrative, and all the better if it ends up being really silly, fanfiction-y stuff. If need be, maybe we could pull a MaGMML with it and have the judge content serve as the endgame instead of a postgame, with a relay or game-in-review boss as the actual fight?

Also I’m a bit biased toward this approach because SANICS, but instead of all mini-levels or all cutscenes, why not mix ‘em up? We could go with whichever would work best for each entry, like if a boss has some concepts that could stand to be tutorialized better then we do so with a mini-level, otherwise we just have a cutscene to bridge the events with the previous fight/tie it into the main narrative (though levels can always weave in some storytelling as well!)


And yeah, personally I don’t want to just make a boss, don’t need a contest to do that. I’m excited to build one within the limits of a gimmick and have it evaluated; I like the creativity exercise aspect of it and the opportunity for learning and growing as a designer/dev.

As for shifting away from the contest format and expanding on the awards approach, I wonder if something closer to the Mosts or SMW Central’s C3 events, with a number of different categories instead of a single all-encompassing ranking, is worth exploring?
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Re: SMBX Boss Contest Discussion

Post by Dragon Fogel »

As it happens, I have experience with community-judged contests and I've even run a few. The most complicated step is providing a place for people to put their ratings, but once you have that set up (ideally in a way that's reusable) it's a lot easier on the organization side. You basically just have to contact people if there are problems with their entries, clarify rules if asked, and assemble the entries in a way that makes it easy for raters to play them. Which doesn't need to be the big fancy hub with all the cool extra features that you get for the final compilation.

So I'm absolutely down for trying it this way. But a contest with conventional judging would be fine by me, too.

And I get where Rixi's coming from on putting the cart before the horse on the compilation. The pacing issue is just something I saw come up in the discussion in the contest thread so I figured it was worth bringing up here. Personally, I don't think it's necessarily going to be a problem, and it will be easier to evaluate whether it is when we have actual entries.

Still, so far we're sticking to pretty general ideas that are adaptable to whatever gets submitted, and in particular Zyg's suggestion for full-on arena presentation could still work if we decide the pacing's fine. Worth keeping your caution in mind, though!
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Re: SMBX Boss Contest Discussion

Post by SAJewers »

Enjl wrote: 2 years ago Something that's on my mind: I've seen a couple of people express displeasure with the contest format since the MAGLX3 lp started, for better or for worse, so I've kinda been thinking how we might be able to innovate on the formula a little to steer it more towards the direction of "a short little thing exclusively featuring bosses" while retaining a competitive aspect.
Possible idea as well: do what SMWC does (did?) for their VLDC contests and for the compilation episode, randomize the order of levels, outside of the top/bottom 5 or so.
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Re: SMBX Boss Contest Discussion

Post by Emral »

SAJewers wrote: 2 years ago
Enjl wrote: 2 years ago Something that's on my mind: I've seen a couple of people express displeasure with the contest format since the MAGLX3 lp started, for better or for worse, so I've kinda been thinking how we might be able to innovate on the formula a little to steer it more towards the direction of "a short little thing exclusively featuring bosses" while retaining a competitive aspect.
Possible idea as well: do what SMWC does (did?) for their VLDC contests and for the compilation episode, randomize the order of levels, outside of the top/bottom 5 or so.
For sure! I hadn't mentioned that because I thought it was implied in the structural idea of having the resulting format laid out in an arena-type manner.
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Re: SMBX Boss Contest Discussion

Post by WinterSweater »

I think raocow has the best gimmick ideas, and I hope he gets to decide them from now on.
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Re: SMBX Boss Contest Discussion

Post by Rednaxela »

I will say, in the context of the MaGLXs, MaFAB has always been raocow's thing in a sense. I wouldn't want to get too far ahead in planning details of a standalone MaFAB intending some spiritual continuity with to MaFAB1&2, without raocow's weighing in on whether he'd want to be involved in a similar role as he had in the MaGLX-connected MaFAB1&2.
Rixithechao wrote: 2 years agoAnd yeah, personally I don’t want to just make a boss, don’t need a contest to do that. I’m excited to build one within the limits of a gimmick and have it evaluated; I like the creativity exercise aspect of it and the opportunity for learning and growing as a designer/dev.
This is a sentiment I agree with.
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