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MAGLX3 - Pre-Discussion/Feedback Thread

would you like to participate in some fun contests? would you like to create some fun contests? well ^_^
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sedron
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Re: MAGLX3 - Pre-Discussion/Feedback Thread

Postby sedron » 2 years ago

Dragon Fogel wrote: For what it's worth, I'm now fully behind Verb, Adjective, Location, NPC, and Any of the Above, and I encourage anyone else who thinks this is good to speak up.
I still prefer having two locations, but I won't be heartbroken if this gets chosen as the gimmick.

You guys have created examples of two adjectives working for level design, but none of the examples frankly excite me. I can think of tons of two location examples that DO excite me. Even the one example table had a couple of ideas that I thought were really cool. Obviously this is going to be very subjective (and I think a lot of the problem with this entire argument is just how subjective this all is,) but that can't really be helped.
ano0maly wrote: First off,
If someone says they shouldn't have to/don't want to follow the gimmick, my answer is going to continue to be "you don't have to if you're willing to take a penalty in score."
That's true, but that isn't a response to a point raised about a gimmick, it's ignoring the point. I've absolutely loathed that non-argument ever since it was in MAGL2. It's an excuse where the contest is saying that it's your fault for using the gimmick instead of taking responsibility over designing the gimmick correctly.
If that's a non-argument then what do you call what you're doing?

I don't want to be rude but I already responded to this and the points that made me bring up this argument in the first place. Go back and reread my last post.
I argued that the fact that the second location was originally marked as harder difficulty was irrelevant to your argument that that having a second location is significantly harder than just the one.
Let me clarify:

I was responding to how you said, "The fact that the second location was a difficulty option seems like a largely moot point". I actually think it's relevant, since the reason there was another locations category in the first place was because of hard mode, not because the gimmick was intended to center on locations. No hard mode, no assumption of two locations.

To be clear, I don't think two locations would be hard necessarily, but I do think it's not needed and the insistence on this particular category is odd.
Here is exactly what Sturg said regarding the removal of hard difficulty.
Sturg wrote: Diffiulties were taken out as it was troublesome deciding which words were harder than others, also since I've come to realize the difficulties were unnecessary.
If the second locations category was meant to be hard mode, and not the fact that the locations themselves were harder, then why wouldn't Sturg have just removed it himself? Nothing you're saying on the matter matches up with what he said.
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Re: MAGLX3 - Pre-Discussion/Feedback Thread

Postby Enjl » 2 years ago

I wouldn't be opposed to "two of any" but "two locations" sounds like it'd honestly bring out the most interesting results of all.
The trouble you might run into otherwise is that the other NPC opens up the choice of something that can easily be slapped next to the other NPC and work well, and stuff like a second adjective or verb might be too abstract to properly work with.
I think given the fact you get to choose between 3 locations to fit into your idea an lead the idea into some cool new directions and will almost always have a pretty obvious connection to one of the other three.

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Re: MAGLX3 - Pre-Discussion/Feedback Thread

Postby ano0maly » 2 years ago

sedron wrote: You guys have created examples of two adjectives working for level design, but none of the examples frankly excite me.
That's... just you though. You said that locations is the only option that makes sense. Dragon Fogel disagrees.

Simply put, personally I prefer the "another any of the above" and personally I'm not convinced why "another location" is better.
If that's a non-argument then what do you call what you're doing?

I don't want to be rude but I already responded to this and the points that made me bring up this argument in the first place. Go back and reread my last post.
I just wanted to get this way out of the way first before addressing your substantial argument. This is far from the first time when someone said "You didn't have to use the gimmick if you didn't want to" as a way to shift responsibility and dismiss a point.

I'm surprised you are unaware of this, when I've been consistenly speaking out against it since 2013. Basically, telling the entrant to just take the hit like a man is not a proper response to a point made about an idea. Actually defending the idea is. I know you did that, but for my part I'm responding to you.
If the second locations category was meant to be hard mode, and not the fact that the locations themselves were harder, then why wouldn't Sturg have just removed it himself? Nothing you're saying on the matter matches up with what he said.
I'm going by the proposal in the previous thread though. In hard mode the items would have been trickier, but more concretely, you would have two location picks. In normal you would have one location, and one each of other categories. Other than the difficulty level I have not seen the impression that Sturg's proposal was mainly themed around the places.

Sturg apparently kept location set 2 in the revised plan, but now he's thinking of revising again and actively considering replacing location 2 with any 2. So we'll see.
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Re: MAGLX3 - Pre-Discussion/Feedback Thread

Postby Dragon Fogel » 2 years ago

If you can't imagine a really fun level where the goal is "help this dude get smellier to improve his social status", I don't know what to say. Everything Zyglrox mentioned is something that I would enjoy a sincere effort to make a level out of.

It doesn't matter if that excites you or not - the point is it excites someone. There are real people who will get more excited at the prospect of combining "poisonous" with "operatic" than combining "pancake house" with "zeppelin". And I, for one, want to see what that excitement leads them to produce.
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Re: MAGLX3 - Pre-Discussion/Feedback Thread

Postby ohmato » 2 years ago

Having a double location definitely opens up more doorways for creativity. Levels would otherwise feel pretty one-note, especially with how the gimmick works.
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Re: MAGLX3 - Pre-Discussion/Feedback Thread

Postby sedron » 2 years ago

ano0maly wrote:
sedron wrote: You guys have created examples of two adjectives working for level design, but none of the examples frankly excite me.
That's... just you though. You said that locations is the only option that makes sense. Dragon Fogel disagrees.
sedron wrote:You guys have created examples of two adjectives working for level design, but none of the examples frankly excite me. I can think of tons of two location examples that DO excite me. Even the one example table had a couple of ideas that I thought were really cool. Obviously this is going to be very subjective (and I think a lot of the problem with this entire argument is just how subjective this all is,) but that can't really be helped.
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Re: MAGLX3 - Pre-Discussion/Feedback Thread

Postby ano0maly » 2 years ago

Yeah. But I'm wondering why you seem to be imposing your personal preference as an argument in response, when all I keep seeing is this awkward imbalance.
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Re: MAGLX3 - Pre-Discussion/Feedback Thread

Postby ohmato » 2 years ago

yeah sed, it's not like opinions on the format are being requested and opinions are being given in compliance, why are you bringing personal preferences into it
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Re: MAGLX3 - Pre-Discussion/Feedback Thread

Postby Money » 2 years ago

Im also in support of "any of the above" instead of two locations. People who want to make levels with two locations still can, and people who dont dont have to. The "two locations" idea biases itself towards longer levels that go from location to location (i know you could combine them but i'd imagine most would keep them discrete), which means many levels will have similar progression. The "any of the above" choice will lead to the greatest variety in types of level design, which is a good thing.

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Re: MAGLX3 - Pre-Discussion/Feedback Thread

Postby Zygl » 2 years ago

sedron wrote: You guys have created examples of two adjectives working for level design, but none of the examples frankly excite me. I can think of tons of two location examples that DO excite me. Even the one example table had a couple of ideas that I thought were really cool. Obviously this is going to be very subjective (and I think a lot of the problem with this entire argument is just how subjective this all is,) but that can't really be helped.
Yeah, the subjectivity is kinda the entire crux of my argument here honestly. :p You find a lot of exciting potential in two locations, and of course that's fine, and I'm certainly not gonna deny there's a lot of potential there. But I personally am a lot more excited as a designer about the potential of two verbs; Fogel looks to be pretty into two adjectives; people are all gonna be inspired by different combinations of elements, and restricting them to what any particular person - or subset of people, even - thinks will make the best ideas is just silly. The point of the gimmick (aside from keeping peeps from just submitting whatever level they have sitting around) is to give participants inspiration and ideas - why, then, do we want to restrict which column they're allowed to derive inspiration and ideas from combining two of?

Enjl wrote:I wouldn't be opposed to "two of any" but "two locations" sounds like it'd honestly bring out the most interesting results of all.
The trouble you might run into otherwise is that the other NPC opens up the choice of something that can easily be slapped next to the other NPC and work well, and stuff like a second adjective or verb might be too abstract to properly work with.
I think given the fact you get to choose between 3 locations to fit into your idea an lead the idea into some cool new directions and will almost always have a pretty obvious connection to one of the other three.
You're never not gonna have some chance of an easy combination coming up though, if that's a concern for you; you can still wind up with '"forest" and "treehouse," or "island" and "sea," or "factory" and "city" even if you specifically force two locations in an effort to prevent that. And since when are easy combinations a concern in this contest series that's given us such level names as "Run Quickly" or "Assault the Castle!" or even "hi my name is peach, and i have a problem"? :v
As for two adjectives or two verbs being too abstract to work with - I'm not suggesting we force peeps to use two from a specific one of the other lists, you know. :p I'm suggesting we let them choose what actually gives them a solid idea they want to work with. And if their usage of the two verbs or two adjectives is too abstract - if that's your concern - they'll lose points for it, because that's not a good implementation of those two verbs or two adjectives. Plain and simple.

ohmato wrote:Having a double location definitely opens up more doorways for creativity. Levels would otherwise feel pretty one-note, especially with how the gimmick works.
Like, I'm not gonna go so far as to outright say you're "objectively" incorrect here, but I honestly fail to see how telling people they can only use two locations opens up more doors than letting them use two of one of the other columns instead if they so choose? Like, you're literally closing doorways that way, aren't you? >_>
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Re: MAGLX3 - Pre-Discussion/Feedback Thread

Postby ohmato » 2 years ago

Zyglrox Odyssey wrote:
ohmato wrote:Having a double location definitely opens up more doorways for creativity. Levels would otherwise feel pretty one-note, especially with how the gimmick works.
Like, I'm not gonna go so far as to outright say you're "objectively" incorrect here, but I honestly fail to see how telling people they can only use two locations opens up more doors than letting them use two of one of the other columns instead if they so choose? Like, you're literally closing doorways that way, aren't you? >_>
No, all I was doing was throwing in my two bits about having two location columns making it far more interesting than just one. I said nothing about the other thing.
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Re: MAGLX3 - Pre-Discussion/Feedback Thread

Postby McKnackus » 2 years ago

I sensed that MAGLX3 was being discussed and came back as a zombie poster as soon as I could.

For what it's worth, I vouch for the Verb-Location-NPC-Adjective-YourPick option. Forcing two locations, while it does force some good creativity, won't really allow for different kinds of creativity. I think about levels in real Mario games like "Freezeflame Galaxy" and the like where it's a combination of two opposites or two different styles of locales, and those are some of my favorites, but a whole game full of them could get tiresome. We can only really appreciate those kinds of levels when you have the really good forest/desert/pipe levels that have their own way of standing out.

Also, I think those who wish to make risky levels that go for the whole "experience" style gameplay, or some other out-of-the-blue level concepts, should understand that those are "risky" levels because they will inherently have a niche audience, and so they might not score so high for some of the judges. That's just how it is with those levels. And honestly, I think those levels are made more for the fun of it and to provide something unique and innovative than to actually win.

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Re: MAGLX3 - Pre-Discussion/Feedback Thread

Postby Mata Hari » 2 years ago

Does this even need to be an announcement any more

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Re: MAGLX3 - Pre-Discussion/Feedback Thread

Postby sedron » 2 years ago

I mean, I think we're probably done? Any more talk on the current (or month-old) subject would just be more "hey here's my opinion" "HOW DARE YOU" so I can't imagine it'd be productive.

Some kind of update would be neat, though. Where's this contest at?
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Re: MAGLX3 - Pre-Discussion/Feedback Thread

Postby Sturg » 2 years ago

Within the week judge applications will start, I've been setting up this last sample level for judges to test out.

You can get rid of this topic. I'll just post a separate one for the judge stuff.
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Re: MAGLX3 - Pre-Discussion/Feedback Thread

Postby Dragon Fogel » 2 years ago

So what did you end up deciding on the subject we were arguing about all those months ago, regarding whether to allow doubling up on any category? Or are you going to answer that in the judging thread?
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Re: MAGLX3 - Pre-Discussion/Feedback Thread

Postby Sturg » 2 years ago

I've been leaning more towards the "any of the above" option, as then peeps can choose whatever their lovely little heart desires.
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Re: MAGLX3 - Pre-Discussion/Feedback Thread

Postby Leet » 2 years ago

maggle x is dumb
ImageWell it is a decent hack but sometime its just too repetitif there no level that actually pop in your face and your like oh yeah that level they all ressemble themselves and just monster along the way.
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Re: MAGLX3 - Pre-Discussion/Feedback Thread

Postby tenta » 2 years ago

Hmm, id like to join this actually. il be honest that i didn't really read the very first post so i don't know when it will start, deadline and stuff. All il say is that i won't be able to work on it this week.

Edit: Il do my best to not remake the horror and error i made in Maglx2
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Re: MAGLX3 - Pre-Discussion/Feedback Thread

Postby CloudyCloud » 2 years ago

Sturg wrote: I've been leaning more towards the "any of the above" option, as then peeps can choose whatever their lovely little heart desires.
Okay, so when will you start accepting the levels?

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Re: MAGLX3 - Pre-Discussion/Feedback Thread

Postby Zha Hong Lang » 2 years ago

CloudyCloud wrote: Okay, so when will you start accepting the levels?
hold up
we haven't even started selecting judges yet
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