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SDS 2

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WestonSmith
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Re: SDS 2

Post by WestonSmith »

While the track record is bad, I think SDS 2 should persist where others failed so long as the following occurs:

1) We keep our vision small but focused
2) We keep our team small but productive
3) We accept that what we produce will never be perfect

SDS 2 will require greater effort and compromise then SDS has. Having these discussions early on should help us sort out what we need to do. As long as we don't rush head first into the "fun" stuff (building levels), we should manage to keep our head above water.
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Whimsical Calamari
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Re: SDS 2

Post by Whimsical Calamari »

The most important thing to keep in mind here is the massive difference in scale between A2MBXT, A2MT, and SDS. There's some engine/Lunadll technicalities to work out for SDS 2, sure, but if the project is meant to mimic SMB 2, that's 20 levels, a very stable base goal and a far cry from the variable potential level count of the other Talkhaus collaborations that ended up being over 80 for A2MT, and over 100 for both ASMBXT games so far. Not to mention the smaller amount of developers working on the SDS project, the relatively low-profile development, and the "no custom assets" rule, removing a lot of the problems that slowed down A2XT and especially A2MT.

And as Weston said, planning like this helps prevent even more of that hassle.

also you guys don't mind too much if I jump into these discussions right? ok

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Re: SDS 2

Post by darkychao »

plot twist: SDS 2: Adventure of Sheath
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Re: SDS 2

Post by Kil »

That could be cool. Maybe a short Zelda 2 styled game?

I don't really care either way I just want to make some cool stuff in lunadll
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Re: SDS 2

Post by swirlybomb »

>why we should start discussing this now
Very valid points. I was just a bit afraid of people getting excited about SDS2 and potentially abandoning SDS1...


So to continue:

There's also the matter of character selection to consider. The NES SMB2 let you choose your character before each level, but you were 'stuck' as that character until you beat the level or game over'd, while the SNES version let you re-select after dying if you so desired. Meanwhile, in Doki Doki Panic you chose your character and then stuck with them until beating at least a world (or game over-ing), but each character functioned as a separate 'file' and saved progress separately. Also, to get the full ending you needed to beat the game with all four characters, but that's not a thing we should imitate.

I think 'choose character at the start of each level' could work by having an identical section in each level of a 'character select' room before the actual level starts? Allowing the player to change characters after death would probably be tricky... Not sure about making the player choose a character before 'starting' the game and making them stick with just that character; obviously it'd be the 'easy' option, but I don't think it'd have the same 'feel' as SMB2. Or something else, of course.


Music considerations... I listened to A2MBXT's soundtrack twice over, and here's my best thoughts on what might fit for options;
Overworld:
- smb2-overworld
- mariorpg-tadpolepond
Underground:
- ssbb-underground
Mario 2 only had those two level themes (plus boss theme/Wart), but we might opt to mix it up a bit like we initially did for Night levels (later for Snow levels instead)?
Desert (worlds 2 & 6):
- smb3-world2
Snow (world 4):
- mario64-snowmountain
- smb3-sky
- smb3-world6
Castle/Dungeon (for the 3rd stages of each world, as an alternative to using the underground theme):
- mario64-castle
- smb3-castle
- smw-castle
- smb2-underground (final castle option?)

Boss/Final boss possibilities:
- smb2-boss
- smb2-wart
- smw-boss
- smb3-boss
- mario64-boss
- sf-corneria

Character selection:
mariorpg-rosetown
Subspace?:
sm64-desert
smb-overworld
I dunno, those are just my thoughts. If anyone wants to give their own opinions, please feel free.
One thing that came to mind is that we could possibly try and keep SDS2's music 'unique' by not using anything that we used in SDS1 or might use in 3 (besides Subspace, since that used Mario 1's music), but that's just my own idea and I don't know what anyone else would think of it.


Another quick thought is that apparently Doki Doki Panic's story goes that... well, okay there's an in-game scene where two kids get pulled into a book and then the family of the 4 playable characters jump in to go save them; but apparently what happened was that the kids accidentally ripped out the last page(s) of the book where Wart was defeated (meaning that he wasn't defeated), and that/those missing page(s) is why world 7 only has 2 stages instead of 3 like the rest of the worlds; Mario 2 didn't have a reason, it just 'was'. So despite that probably-confusing explanation, it might be worth considering whether there should be some kind of 'justification' for world 7 being one stage short, or we just do it because Mario 2 did it, or if world 7 should be longer instead. I'm saying words.

...Can't remember if anything else was on my mind from before!


SDS 2: Adventure of Sheath is an entertaining idea too. Although I'd probably be more game to do Mario 2 rather than Zelda 2 myself.
anonymousbl00dlust wrote:All the obstacles in my level can be beaten on the players first attempt without any 'future predicting'.
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Doctor Shemp
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Re: SDS 2

Post by Doctor Shemp »

If you think doing SMB2 in SMBX will be hard, which it will be, why would you suggest Zelda 2? That would be pretty much impossible.
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Mabel
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Re: SDS 2

Post by Mabel »

Doctor Shemp wrote:If you think doing SMB2 in SMBX will be hard, which it will be, why would you suggest Zelda 2? That would be pretty much impossible.
aside from enemys roaming on an overworld, a Zelda 2 is quite possible with SMBX

wait no, I forgot about some things but its mostly doable

that said, wouldnt it be

AZCT 2

instead?
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Kil
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Re: SDS 2

Post by Kil »

swirlybomb wrote: Very valid points. I was just a bit afraid of people getting excited about SDS2 and potentially abandoning SDS1...
I though it was pretty much done but people are waiting for a2mbxt or something (this is the thing I don't understand)
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swirlybomb
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Re: SDS 2

Post by swirlybomb »

Doctor Shemp wrote:If you think doing SMB2 in SMBX will be hard, which it will be, why would you suggest Zelda 2? That would be pretty much impossible.
Darkychao brought it up so I thought I should at least give my opinion on it. It's an interesting idea, at least. Unless 'you' was not referring to me : x

For what it's worth, I think it would be possible to do something similar in SMBX, even if it's not a perfect facsimile (roaming monsters wouldn't be necessary, since there's no XP to be gained from fighting them). I have no idea if it'd be possible to do in Zelda Classic since I haven't used it yet (and is there already an AZCT sequel planned?).

anyway just giving it fair consideration
Kil wrote:I though it was pretty much done but people are waiting for a2mbxt or something (this is the thing I don't understand)
To my knowledge, what's left for SDS is:
-finish Hard Mode (is Weston doing this alone?)
-Challenge World still needs editing (I think 9-2 and 9-3 at the least are in the 'unfair' category, but I'm not totally sure of the difficulty otherwise because I've played each level fifty times and 'know' them all, compared to someone that hasn't played them much/at all)
-credits should be implemented, and I think having a 'true ending' at the end of Hard Mode would be a good idea/incentive to actually beat it, if possible
-a handful of people to get avatar-room quotes from (better send a PM to them all)
-Shemp/Clem were working on an 'instruction manual' thing? I think this could be considered an optional 'icing on the cake*' thing... I thought it could use some actual 'personality' to it, but I have no idea what anyone else thinks

So not quite yet, but it's close. Someone can correct me if I'm mistaken.

*

why would you ever have cake without icing though?

anonymousbl00dlust wrote:All the obstacles in my level can be beaten on the players first attempt without any 'future predicting'.
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Re: SDS 2

Post by TiKi »

I made a Clawgrip that's basically Mouser with 3 HP and throwing rocks (tweeters) if anyone so desires.

Oh! I made a Tryclyde that's Larry, but he never ducks into his shell (the shell is made to turn back to Larry).
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Re: SDS 2

Post by swirlybomb »

Nice! I suppose we'd just need to get graphics for them.
anonymousbl00dlust wrote:All the obstacles in my level can be beaten on the players first attempt without any 'future predicting'.
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Re: SDS 2

Post by Kil »

I've already programmed a bunch of sprites by the way, including phanto and the flashing skull thing from zelda 2 which will be kinda useless for mario 2 but oh well.
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Re: SDS 2

Post by TiKi »

Kil wrote:I've already programmed a bunch of sprites by the way, including phanto and the flashing skull thing from zelda 2 which will be kinda useless for mario 2 but oh well.
Nice! I've got two questions though
1. How would I place these things?
2. Where are the graphics stored?
PS SMB2 stuff coming later tonight sorry I completely forgot
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Re: SDS 2

Post by Kil »

The lunadll file & the graphics go in the graphics folder
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Re: SDS 2

Post by TiKi »

*looks up bubble from Z2*
So this could be a diagonal Podoboo or Wendy's rings?
:mrgreen:
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Re: SDS 2

Post by Kil »

Yes it's a diagonal podobo.
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Re: SDS 2

Post by tigermoon »

Stupid dumb suggestion time.

How about using Pily and Calleoca instead of raocow and Kood (respectively) to sort of keep this its own thing? Cally's already the default Princess NPC, and Pily's only real "gimmick" is lava, which doesn't exist in SMB2. It shouldn't be too much of a hassle to have someone make sheets for the two of them, seeing as we'd only need Small and Big versions.

Don't have to take me up on this one, of course, but I figured I may as well throw the suggestion out there.
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Re: SDS 2

Post by Mabel »

tigermoon wrote:Stupid dumb suggestion time.

How about using Pily and Calleoca instead of raocow and Kood (respectively) to sort of keep this its own thing? Cally's already the default Princess NPC, and Pily's only real "gimmick" is lava, which doesn't exist in SMB2. It shouldn't be too much of a hassle to have someone make sheets for the two of them, seeing as we'd only need Small and Big versions.

Don't have to take me up on this one, of course, but I figured I may as well throw the suggestion out there.
If i were good at spriting Id already have a playable Calleoca for this suggestion...
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Doctor Shemp
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Re: SDS 2

Post by Doctor Shemp »

tigermoon wrote:Stupid dumb suggestion time.

How about using Pily and Calleoca instead of raocow and Kood (respectively) to sort of keep this its own thing? Cally's already the default Princess NPC, and Pily's only real "gimmick" is lava, which doesn't exist in SMB2. It shouldn't be too much of a hassle to have someone make sheets for the two of them, seeing as we'd only need Small and Big versions.

Don't have to take me up on this one, of course, but I figured I may as well throw the suggestion out there.
The episode would then need its own separate base game, since replacing player graphics for too many levels in a row makes the engine lag then eventually crash. Even worse, it's unpredictable in how long it'll take to do that.
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Re: SDS 2

Post by Kil »

delete kood from asmbxt god damn I hate him
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Re: SDS 2

Post by tigermoon »

Doctor Shemp wrote:The episode would then need its own separate base game, since replacing player graphics for too many levels in a row makes the engine lag then eventually crash.
Exactly what causes this bug? I just tested a standard-engine SMBX game as its Peach reskin for 20 straight levels (replaying any that had multiple exits) and didn't have issues. I'm aware SMBX bugs don't affect everyone, but I'm a bit confused here.

*e* I apologize if that came across as hostile. I just really don't know how else to put it. *e*
Even worse, it's unpredictable in how long it'll take to do that.
This, on the other hand, I'll certainly agree would be a problem.

Kil wrote:delete kood from asmbxt god damn I hate him
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Re: SDS 2

Post by TiKi »

Kood's actually my favorite, if you mean the kinda buggy hitbox okay but who doesn't get behind a playable Koopa
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Re: SDS 2

Post by cheez8 »

Doctor Shemp wrote:
tigermoon wrote:Stupid dumb suggestion time.

How about using Pily and Calleoca instead of raocow and Kood (respectively) to sort of keep this its own thing? Cally's already the default Princess NPC, and Pily's only real "gimmick" is lava, which doesn't exist in SMB2. It shouldn't be too much of a hassle to have someone make sheets for the two of them, seeing as we'd only need Small and Big versions.

Don't have to take me up on this one, of course, but I figured I may as well throw the suggestion out there.
The episode would then need its own separate base game, since replacing player graphics for too many levels in a row makes the engine lag then eventually crash. Even worse, it's unpredictable in how long it'll take to do that.
Wouldn't it work just to make Pily and Calleoca the default player graphics? I mean, I don't seem to remember Kood or raocow being used much in SDS, if at all. Aren't they just kind of bonus characters there? And if so, would it somehow be worse for Pily and Calleoca to be the bonus characters instead? Personally, I don't think it would be any worse, and I like the idea of having those two as the "new" playable characters in SDS2.

(I've also never managed to fully feel comfortable with the idea of taking somebody else's character and giving him lines and everything, even if the creator says he doesn't care, so I'm all for an excuse to avoid using Kood as well. Pily and Calleoca are good ideas in the first place though and I'd still support using them even if I didn't mind Kood)
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Re: SDS 2

Post by tigermoon »

In truth... if my suggestion were actually done, it'd probably be easier to have Pily be Peach and Calleoca be Toad due to the hitbox thing. Sure, a lunaglobal thing could be done to fix the hitboxes, but this is already bordering on "more trouble than it's worth" territory as it is. :lol:
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Re: SDS 2

Post by Zygl »

Does SDS still require a different LunaDLL from A2XT's? Because if it does I support the notion of doing a separate base game, that way we could do any player graphic swaps we want and also not have to swap around LunaDLLs.
I don't really have any strong opinion either way on the graphic swapping, but if we have to copy LunaDLLs around to make the game work anyway we might as well kill two birds with one stone, I think.
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