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SDS 2

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Leet
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Re: SDS 2

Post by Leet »

Ningamer wrote:Well here is another question: Howabout after SDS2 or 3 is done, why not try to recreate Smw in A2xt? Then again that could be stupid as we can just hack Smw...
I think we should call the SMW game "A Super Mario Thing".
Well it is a decent hack but sometime its just too repetitif there no level that actually pop in your face and your like oh yeah that level they all ressemble themselves and just monster along the way.
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Re: SDS 2

Post by Heraga »

Also a dumb question: How come SDS did not include a timer Like Smb1?
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Re: SDS 2

Post by Doctor Shemp »

Or you could just stop replying to Ningamer and do something actually productive.
swirlybomb wrote:Thanks Shemp and Tiki, that's very handy!

I think/agree that we should space out the 'introductions' of everything more than SMB2 did. 1-1 for example more or less introduced all of the 'special' items (POW block, bomb, shell, etc) in one area just so you can see what each of them does, but we don't have to show them all at once like that. Don't know how exactly we could 'decide' where thing specifically get introduced, but... I figure if someone just makes up a list of possibilities, we could 'agree' on that or tweak it slightly or something.
I see where you're coming from with this, especially since SMB2 stops introducing new stuff after 4-1, but the problems with staggering out introductions of new stuff is that a) quite a few enemies are basically just faster resprites of earlier ones, since there's only two methods of attack in this game (grab them or throw something at them) and both work on every enemy except Phanto, Porcupo & Spark (unless I'm forgetting others). The others is that it may make the game too easy.

There are some restrictions on when we can introduce things, as dictated by theme. If we don't introduce Cobrats, Pokeys, diggable sand & quicksand in World 3, we can't do it until World 6. We can only introduce Flurries in World 4. Now if your aim is to not introduce a whole lot of things at once, that causes more problems. Let's say we put off some stuff from World 1. We can't then postpone it to World 2 because we already have stuff slated for that world, plus some enemies would no longer fit the theme. So we postpone them to World 3 but then we have to shunt stuff out of World 3 but it can't go in World 4 because it wouldn't fit, so then we shunt it to World 5. Now we've ended up in a situation where we may not have, say, Ostros until World 5 instead of 3, and no Beezos until World 3 instead of World 1. It'll make for an easy game.

Responses here in italics.
swirlybomb wrote:-Mario 2 has pretty 'long' levels, with 'checkpoints' at every door/screen transition
Two solutions: condense the levels or make them separate level files.
-Coins being used for slot machines and Cherries being used to get stars, as well as defeating enemies to get hearts
-1-ups actually in levels are extremely rare and are mostly gained from the slot machines
No idea. We may just have to ditch the machines and up the 1-ups and hearts in the level.
-Demo/Iris don't have health like raocow/Kood(/Sheath) do, and there are no powerups
The easiest solution is to only have raocow & Kood be playable, and to only use hearts/carrots (?) as powerups
-Health increases/mushrooms being found in Subspace and only lasting until the next level
No idea: probably cut
-Subspace in general; one idea is that every level has 'subspace' versions of each section and the 'subspace' areas have impassable walls here and there to keep you stuck in the area you used the potion, but they'd have to be done in such a way that you never warp into a wall...
That is a big problem. We also need to figure out how to limit the time the player spends in subspace and then warp them back automatically.


swirlybomb wrote:There's also the matter of character selection to consider. The NES SMB2 let you choose your character before each level, but you were 'stuck' as that character until you beat the level or game over'd, while the SNES version let you re-select after dying if you so desired. Meanwhile, in Doki Doki Panic you chose your character and then stuck with them until beating at least a world (or game over-ing), but each character functioned as a separate 'file' and saved progress separately. Also, to get the full ending you needed to beat the game with all four characters, but that's [probably?] not a thing we should imitate.

I think 'choose character at the start of each level' could work by having an identical section in each level of a 'character select' room before the actual level starts? Allowing the player to change characters after death would probably be tricky... Not sure about making the player choose a character before 'starting' the game and making them stick with just that character; obviously it'd be the 'easy' option, but I don't think it'd have the same 'feel' as SMB2. Or something else, of course.

I agree that we should have a character selection room before each level. If we're splitting the level files to have multiple checkpoints that way, then just put them before the "actual" level.

swirlybomb wrote:Another quick thought is that apparently Doki Doki Panic's story goes that... well, okay there's an in-game scene where two kids get pulled into a book and then the family of the 4 playable characters jump in to go save them; but apparently what happened was that the kids accidentally ripped out the last page(s) of the book where Wart was defeated (meaning that he wasn't defeated), and that/those missing page(s) is why world 7 only has 2 stages instead of 3 like the rest of the worlds; Mario 2 didn't have a reason, it just 'was'. So despite that probably-confusing explanation, it might be worth considering whether there should be some kind of 'justification' for world 7 being one stage short, or we just do it because Mario 2 did it, or if world 7 should be longer instead. I'm saying words.

Here's a plot idea to riff on the "it was a dream" ending as well as only raocow & Kood being playable and there being no 7-3:
Demo & Iris have been kidnapped. raocow & Sheath need to save her from the evil Emperor Duck. They defeat him/her at the end of 7-2, but then 7-3 starts. It's a room with Iris in it, who says something like "You thought the duck was the evil one? No! I, Iris, am the true villain!". And then she turns into a tentacle monster like The Thing, and then the level immediately ends before the fight even starts. It cuts to Demo waking up from bed, who says something like "Woah! I've gotta stop eating so much cheese before bedtime!" and then it goes into the credits and that's the end of the game.

Also we'd have to decide on music at some point: Italics are my preference and also my notes
swirlybomb wrote:Music considerations... I listened to A2MBXT's soundtrack twice over, and here's my best thoughts on what might fit for options;
Overworld:
- smb2-overworld
- mariorpg-tadpolepond (I'm pretty sure this is OW music, not level music, and it's too short)
Underground:
- ssbb-underground
Mario 2 only had those two level themes (plus boss theme/Wart), but we might opt to mix it up a bit like we initially did for Night levels (later for Snow levels instead)?
Desert (worlds 2 & 6):
- smb3-world2 (This is OW music so we'd need to copy the MP3 into the episode's folder and call on it that way)
Snow (world 4):
- mario64-snowmountain (Already used)
- smb3-sky
- smb3-world6
Castle/Dungeon (for the 3rd stages of each world, as an alternative to using the underground theme):
- mario64-castle
- smb3-castle We probably want to keep this free for SDS3 (if it gets made)
- smw-castle
- smb2-underground (final castle option?) (Since this is yet another remix of The Lullaby, we could use this for normal castles and A2XT's Pseudoscience remix for the final castle. However, that would be breaking the devkit music only rule).

Boss/Final boss possibilities:
- smb2-boss While this hasn't been used elsewhere, there's a reason for that. I'm not happy at all with this track.
- smb2-wart
- smw-boss
- smb3-boss We probably want to keep this free for SDS3 (if it gets made)
- mario64-boss
- sf-corneria (Final)

Character selection:
- mariorpg-rosetown
Subspace?:
I always thought subspace would be more interesting with complete silence. It would give it an otherworldly feel. Or an ambient track with just wind or something.
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Re: SDS 2

Post by WestonSmith »

SMB2 is definitely the hardest of the NES games to properly translate to the SMBX engine. Proper translation will require a ton of LunaDLL, so we can either make a whole bunch of changes to accomodate SMBX's limitations or start learning the ins and outs of what LunaDLL can do.

But again, my heads not in this yet, so I can't really offer real solutions at this point. I'd assume LunaDLL could alter the health system for Demo and Iris though, and possibly offer multiple checkpoints throughout the levels (even if those checkpoints weren't per room, but spaced out fairly evenly).

Also, Subspace seems like an almost impossible 1:1 idea to replicate. Can LunaDLL map warp exits based on where the potion lands? If not, I'd argue that we should fundamentally change their purpose from powerups/coins to trippy alternate routes.
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Re: SDS 2

Post by Kil »

I'm willing to make all the lunadll stuff so no one else has to worry about it, but I'm currently trying to finish my a3mbxt level.

I thought of way where we could replace SMBX sprites with custom ones. Basically in the editor, you could put a bunch of goombas down, but when the level is loading, lunadll would transparently replace them with say, phantos. This way people could place custom sprites in the editor without having to type them in by coordinates. This will work best if you replace sprites that already have matching dimensions. Since goombas have the same dimensions as phantos, and goombas won't be used in SDS2, something like that would be a good replacement. If someone can come up with a list of what sprites aren't being used in SDS2 and would match the dimensions of other sprites we need, that'd be helpful.

Also whatever you can make with just your own ingenuity in SMBX, I suggest you do that, because it's gonna be a lot of work to make some of the stuff in lunadll.
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Re: SDS 2

Post by Clamestarebla »

Subspace, basically could work like this:
-Plants, like in the original, are replaced by coins
-Mushrooms are hidden throughout subspace and since there wouldn't be(?) any "no going back" limitations, it would make it less tedious to find them all.
-Either no enemies should be in subspace or more enemies should be in it to make it more challenging to get the mushrooms
-There should, of course, be a time limit. Hinted perhaps by a certain P-Switch-like tune?

It would stay very similar to the original and it wouldn't be too hard to make I assume? It's literally using the clone section option and then changing a few things. I guess the time limit could be somewhat challenging to make?
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Re: SDS 2

Post by TiKi »

Notes on replacements:
Pansers = Hammer Snakes
Ostros = Disco Dans
SMA Bubble 1up = TV with the health decreased
Beezo = either Misc. flying enemy, bullet bill, eerie cat, etc. (even though there would be no way to make them fly and fall when thrown, I think the Bullet Bill's enemy destroying properties compensate for that)
Cobrat = tulip for the jar ones, jumping fly plant with generator that possibly changes (read: layers) based on player's position relative to the Cobrat or it's facing direction, for the jumping and bullet ones
Albatross = misc fish or genie with a generator for exploding cube thing
Porcupo = spiny inchworm (gimme a talkhaus award for this idea)

What are we going to do for Pidgit's carpet?
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Re: SDS 2

Post by swirlybomb »

Doctor Shemp wrote:stuff about enemies
Not saying we have to try and push everything back, just maybe a few things so that it's not all front-loaded in world 1. Like (just some random ideas) Sparks could move from 1-3 to 2-3, a Panser variant could wait until world 4 (so there'd be one type each in worlds 2, 3, and 4), bombs could first appear in 1-3 (introducing them in the same level you first fight Mouser)... just relatively minor stuff.
-Mario 2 has pretty 'long' levels, with 'checkpoints' at every door/screen transition
Two solutions: condense the levels or make them separate level files.
Levels being 'long' wasn't really an 'issue' so much as a design observation.

Maybe the other things on the list are too? If we can't actually replicate them in SMBX, then perhaps we can find a 'compromise' instead. If it's possible to LunaDLL Demo/Iris into having health, then maybe there could be health pickups here and there in levels? Maybe cherries can be coins instead? Perhaps there can be a simple minigame to try and get a free life after each level rather than a lottery?
Just a quick idea on that last one; perhaps there's a 1-up sitting at the top of the screen, and there are blocks in the way of its falling-path that flash very quickly, with a switch block that you hit to 'freeze' them, and if you hit it when the path is clear, the 1-up falls down and you get it. (hope that description makes sense?)

Unless I'm mistaken, Tiki seems to have found a possible way to respawn in the same section after dying via LunaDLL? viewtopic.php?f=47&t=14777&start=50#p246362
It may not be "the last door you went through" (unless warp numbers can be recorded?), but perhaps it could work? Or if 'multiple checkpoints' are an option through LunaDLL, maybe that (having designated checkpoints)...?
Doctor Shemp wrote:Here's a plot idea to riff on the "it was a dream" ending as well as only raocow & Kood being playable and there being no 7-3:
Demo & Iris have been kidnapped. raocow & Sheath need to save her from the evil Emperor Duck. They defeat him/her at the end of 7-2, but then 7-3 starts. It's a room with Iris in it, who says something like "You thought the duck was the evil one? No! I, Iris, am the true villain!". And then she turns into a tentacle monster like The Thing, and then the level immediately ends before the fight even starts. It cuts to Demo waking up from bed, who says something like "Woah! I've gotta stop eating so much cheese before bedtime!" and then it goes into the credits and that's the end of the game.
I can't help but love this as a complete gag non-ending.
Boss/Final boss possibilities:
- smb2-boss While this hasn't been used elsewhere, there's a reason for that. I'm not happy at all with this track.
For curiosity's sake, I'd like to ask why in particular? I think it works well enough for a boss theme myself.

Also if anyone else has ideas for music choices, please feel free to speak up!


Guesses at enemy options (sorry if I'm not using official names for these, I don't know all of them off-hand):
Beezo - Ripper/Shark-skeleton-thing
Phanto - LunaDLL only, I think
Pidgit - anything stationary? I would guess that the magic carpet would be a reskinned 'Airship Part', but it'd need to have a time limit somehow
Trouter - altered Podoboo? (need new graphics)
Cobrat - ??
Panser - Hammer Bro/Bananasnake (assuming they can be made to throw hammers straight up? what about the moving variant?)
Porcupo - Spiny/Caterpillar (new graphics) or Crab?
Ostro - altered Zelda 2 rat-knight-guys/Ukranian Dancers (new graphics?)
Albatoss - jet-powered Ripper/Genie
Autobomb - can Bowser Statues/Catllama Statues be made mobile? (would need animation)
Flurry - altered Bully/Sandcastle

I'm assuming Triclyde, Clawgrip, and maybe Fryguy may be in this thing that Tiki linked?: http://rpgmaker.net/engines/smbx/utilities/71/


Possible Subspace idea: Can the potions be made to not be able to be picked up, either through NPC codes or LunaDLL? NPC codes might not work (I assume it wouldn't force you to drop it after you already picked it up via 'vegetable'?), but if the LunaDLL code used to force-drop things in SDS1 could be re-used and made to work ONLY on potions, then we could design Subspace to be in designated areas: the player picks up a potion, then immediately drops it so the door appears where they're standing, so only the immediate surrounding area would need to have a Subspace counterpart. Then there could be a return potion available in Subspace to return to the level. Though I don't know specifically what the 'prize' could be (health refill, coins, and maybe a 1-up?.
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Re: SDS 2

Post by Kil »

smb2-wart
While we're discussing the dev kit, not sure why this is in there. It seems kind of unfitting for everything. And for Corneria.mp3, not sure why they opted to go with the fake chiptune version of that song...
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Re: SDS 2

Post by TiKi »

Okay, let's see what new:

Pansers: make the hammer have speed=0. Also works for Pidgit.
Fryguy: mother brain with less health and a generator, then fighter flies
Flurry: a rolled up caterpillar. The sandcastles don't "conk out" in the same way a Shyguy does when it hits an enemy, they act more like mushroom blocks.
Autobomb: someone made it replace a bowser statue (the top) on a mega mole (the base).
Trouter: the problem is that Podoboos don't throw well like shyguys. In retrospect the hot tulips don't either for the Cobrat.

The problem with Pansers is that there's only the one hammer bro. You'd have to pick one of the three for a level.
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Re: SDS 2

Post by Doctor Shemp »

swirlybomb wrote:
Doctor Shemp wrote:Boss/Final boss possibilities:
- smb2-boss While this hasn't been used elsewhere, there's a reason for that. I'm not happy at all with this track.
For curiosity's sake, I'd like to ask why in particular? I think it works well enough for a boss theme myself.
I wrote the thing, so I have the privilege of not needing a reason. Basically though I think it's one good idea (the second melody) surrounded by a whole mass of bad ideas, including the first melody, the extra drums, the instrument choices, some of the mixing, etc. I think it's definitely the worst track I contributed by a long margin. Basically it's the last track I made that the term "old shame" still applies to.
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Re: SDS 2

Post by Mabel »

Doctor Shemp wrote:
swirlybomb wrote:
Doctor Shemp wrote:Boss/Final boss possibilities:
- smb2-boss While this hasn't been used elsewhere, there's a reason for that. I'm not happy at all with this track.
For curiosity's sake, I'd like to ask why in particular? I think it works well enough for a boss theme myself.
I wrote the thing, so I have the privilege of not needing a reason. Basically though I think it's one good idea (the second melody) surrounded by a whole mass of bad ideas, including the first melody, the extra drums, the instrument choices, some of the mixing, etc. I think it's definitely the worst track I contributed by a long margin. Basically it's the last track I made that the term "old shame" still applies to.
If you have something better think you wanna replace it?


I have to aggree its a pretty meh track overall too...

anyways, smb2-wart seems like it'll fit just fine for the final boss(or even bosses in general and we can find something else for smb2wart.mp3 and use the current wart as smb2boss
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Re: SDS 2

Post by Doctor Shemp »

Mabel wrote:If you have something better think you wanna replace it?
No, because if I tinker with the basegame, then it's open season for everyone to tinker with the basegame, and A2XT Episode 2 gets postponed half a year.
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Re: SDS 2

Post by Mabel »

maybe, but its your own track you're replacing and its not like anyone is gonna postpone anything just for you to do it. when its done its just shiped off with the next basegame update
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Re: SDS 2

Post by Doctor Shemp »

I don't mean that it will get postponed on my account. I mean that people will say "if Doctor Shemp can update his things in the basegame, why can't I?" which is reasonable. It's just that if everyone does that it's a problem. I'd rather just leave it as the shit track that doesn't get used.
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Re: SDS 2

Post by Mabel »

there are still things in the base game that need changing(smw saw sound still needs to be lowered significantly), if tracks need to be replace they just need to be replaced. even if everyone did it we wouldnt be waiting on them to do so, they just send it in when its ready and it goes in otherwise its not something worth waiting on.
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Re: SDS 2

Post by Oddwrath »

Concerning the music, is it just me or does no devkit smb2 music sits well in an average smb2 level? Even the overworld seems out of place.
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Re: SDS 2

Post by SAJewers »

If you want my suggestions:

Overworld: nsmb-overworld, ssbb-zelda2 (raocow would probably live this), or smb2-overworld. If you have different music for snow levels/world 4, maybe use smb3-world 6 (you'd have to use it as custom music)

Underground: sm-itemroom, ssbb-underground, this Unused Yonowaaru song submitted for A2MT (use an custom song). Might be wise to have different tracks for vases, caves, and buildings. If you do that, maybe go sm-itemroom for vases, the above Yonowaaru song for caves, and sm-crateria for buildings

Subcon: smg-title (use as custom music), z3-lostwoods, mario64-maintheme, smg2-fg

Boss: smw-boss, smb3-hammer

Wart: ssbb-meta, smb2-boss, The A2MT Final Boss music (though this may be better saved for SDS3)
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Re: SDS 2

Post by Doctor Shemp »

Ok I've gone through the enemies and here's what I've come up with:
Enemies not in SMBX that could be reskins
Albatoss (something that moves horizontally: turn gravity off and tie bob-omb generator to albatoss. Alternatively, use Lakitu that can only move horizontally)
Autobomb (reskinned Snifit)
Beezo (something that moves horizontally: turn gravity off)
Cobrat (reskinned Snifit & reskinned SMB3 piranha plant)
Trouter (reskinned podoboo: is it possible to disable the sound? Apparently they don't throw well though)
Porcupo (reskinned spiny)

Enemies not in SMBX that will need to be built from scratch (w/ dimensions)
Beezo (red version that dives): 32x32
Flurry (needs to chase after player like bully but without bully's knockback effect): 32x32
Ninji (version that moves towards you then jumps when it gets close): 32x32
Ostro (needs to chase after player like bully (but only when Shy Guy on top, if possible, otherwise combine as one sprite) but without bully's knockback effect): 32x64
Panser: 32x32
Phanto: 32x32
Possessed Hawkmouth (reskinned Phanto)
Pidgit: 32x32

Luckily, nearly all of these are 32x32, and there's no shortage of 32x32 enemies to replace.

Not Sure how to Approach These
Clawgrip: 64x64
Red Birdo
Tryclyde: 80x94
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Re: SDS 2

Post by Kil »

Awesome. What enemies are they though? I somewhat still remember them by how they look, not their names...
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Re: SDS 2

Post by Clamestarebla »

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Re: SDS 2

Post by WestonSmith »

Triclyde should be fairly simple to make a decent replica of. Really, any enemy set to move at a snails pace and turn when they hit a ledge could be used. Then use invisible Donut Shooters with some layer shenanigans to make the fireballs. It won't be perfect, but its simple to implement and shouldn't require much LunaDLL (outside of setting their health to 3).

Haven't Phantos been done in SMBX before? If not, I the non-LunaDLL answer is to replace homing paragoopas and have them activate when the Key is grabbed. The downside, obviously, is that dropping the key won't have any effect on their movement.

Also, I haven't really used Bullys before, but do they not damage players when they run into them? If not, perhaps setting their NPC Code so that players are hurt on contact could work (assuming Bully isn't some hard-coded trickery that can't be messed with).
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Re: SDS 2

Post by Doctor Shemp »

Actually, bullies do damage; I think I may be remembering incorrectly. I'm sure Kil made a Phanto from scratch as the first demo that he could make enemies from scratch though.
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Re: SDS 2

Post by Kil »

Yeah at the moment, Phanto is actually the only sprite that has been made and is fully working since it's so simple (and the bubbleskull from zelda 2, but you don't need that)
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Re: SDS 2

Post by Axon »

I've posted this on the A2XT forum, but I suppose it's also relevant to this:
Axon wrote:Here's another thing I made: Tryclyde, the SMB2 boss:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/fbkaws4hap11v ... yclyde.rar

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I tried to make it relatively faithful to the original. If you have suggestions for improvement or would like me to explain some of/add more comments to the code, please tell me.

note: I've used clouds for the platforms, because block-502 is solid in SMBX. I could have replaced the cloud graphics, but I guess I forgot.
Note that you need LunaLua version 0.7.0.1 or above for it to work, or else it might crash.

edit:
Axon wrote:Another SMB2 boss, Fryguy:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/6t9bi95j5jcyt ... Fryguy.rar

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He's a bit faster than the original, but that's to compensate the fact that the screen is larger in SMBX than in SMB2.

You need LunaLua v.0.7.0.1 (or higher?) or else it might crash, as mentioned previously.
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