Superb Demo Sisters Enters Genesis

[Doctor Shemp]

I'll try and test hard mode in a few days.

With respect to changing the background objects around the castles, that sounds like a great idea. It would be good to have it in normal mode as well if that's possible. I think the continuity is a nice touch.

[swirlybomb]

If you can, please try and play both versions(!)(?)

It occurred to me to only change the background objects (and 'continuity') stuff for Hard Mode so that I wasn't tampering with the original levels created by everyone; the difference for Hard Mode being that the levels are already being tampered with, so it shouldn't matter if I 'do my own thing' like that. Plus it gives Hard Mode that tiny extra 'flair' or something. But again, it's just my own idea.

Totally forgot to mention: I deliberately put a 'zip through the wall' spot in 1-2 to serve as a possible idea for the entrance to 0-1 (and it's basically the same idea/place as the original Minus World, of course), just to see if anyone else would think it's a good idea. It's not, like, actually 'functional' beyond the zip, but yeah. Being only in Hard Mode also prevents it from being obvious that it's there, I think?

[WestonSmith]

Haven't had a chance to download, but hope to get it tomorrow and test it out.

[Doctor Shemp]

Testing of WestonSmith's hard mode:


In summary:

• Many levels still don't have the basic changes, e.g. furbas -> skulls
• The changes to World 1 are too drastic and make it too hard, even for Hard Mode: bear in mind we're still asking the player to do up to 32 levels in a row without a game over
• Maybe we're caring too much about Hard Mode. Hard Mode in the original game was largely an afterthought. If we make drastic changes to Hard Mode, such as changing level design, they'll require much more testing. If everything else is done except Hard Mode, and Hard Mode has an indefinite development time, maybe we should just knock it on the head, rush out Hard Mode as an afterthought with minimal changes like the original, or cut it entirely, so we can get the game out.

[WestonSmith]

....

Maybe we drop Hard Mode, change its pipe to a Credits Pipe (for anyone in to that kind of thing) and call it a day for the time being? We could always go back and add a proper hard mode down the line if we felt like it. Aside from Hard Mode, all that's left is some polishing and linking in the credits (I think).

Also, tried Swirly's Hard Mode. Felt less like HARD Mode and more like a 2nd Quest ala The LoZ, which I think is fairly neat. Liked the direction it took, is what I'm saying.

[swirlybomb]

......uh

I feel really bad Shemp, but I think you only actually played the first 2 levels of hard mode. It looks like 1-2 and 1-3 weren't linked correctly, so 1-3 and beyond was just the normal game without changes (I didn't actually watch the whole video, but 1-3 through 2-2 at least I could see weren't changed). That's why there were Furbas instead of Skulls and world 1 seemed like much more change than the rest.

Maybe we're caring too much about Hard Mode. Hard Mode in the original game was largely an afterthought. If we make drastic changes to Hard Mode, such as changing level design, they'll require much more testing. If everything else is done except Hard Mode, and Hard Mode has an indefinite development time, maybe we should just knock it on the head, rush out Hard Mode as an afterthought with minimal changes like the original, or cut it entirely, so we can get the game out.

Maybe we drop Hard Mode, change its pipe to a Credits Pipe (for anyone in to that kind of thing) and call it a day for the time being? We could always go back and add a proper hard mode down the line if we felt like it. Aside from Hard Mode, all that's left is some polishing and linking in the credits (I think).

But yeah that's what I was worried about; the game is more or less complete aside from hard mode, and the latter portion of development has already been delayed so long, that I don't want to delay it further by worrying about hard mode being a new experience and all that... I definitely acknowledge that hard mode is "bonus content" and isn't as important as the main game (and challenge world). Though at the same time I'd rather release a 'complete' game rather than patching in hard mode later, but that's probably just me and no one else would care about that. Also I wonder how one could get 3 leeks (to unlock Kood) without hard mode present, but that's maybe not as important?

And yes, I was kind of thinking 'Second Quest'-ish with my interpretation, so it's probably good that it gave you that vibe...!
In theory I could try and do the rest of the game like that, but I'd hate to seem like I was trying to take over the project or anything... and also the concerns about delaying the release of the game. Whatever you guys decide, I'll support.

[WestonSmith]

I have absolutely NO problem with you handling a 2nd Quest. As it is, I'd simply hand over the HARD mode files, then let you go nuts. I'd test it, edit it, then let a third person test it.

I'm for it. The linking should be done (I'll go back and double check 1-3), and you can work off of the base HARD mode rather than my edits (which were done hastily and all sorts of sloppy like).

[Doctor Shemp]

......uh

I feel really bad Shemp, but I think you only actually played the first 2 levels of hard mode.

FUUUUUUUUU...

Wait, does that mean that we did decide to have ice physics for the snowy levels in the normal game? And that also means that my lakitus are still broken. Unless I'm using an earlier version of the game somehow...

As for Hard Mode, I'm pretty sure us three are the only people still active on this subforum, so we could pretty much do the vote now. There's no point hanging around for a quorum that won't arrive.

[swirlybomb]

I just took another look at the video, and yes, you were definitely using an older version. There are no ice physics for the snow levels in the normal game, among other things.

There's no need to take a vote; if you guys (or just Weston, since he's already given approval) are fine with me doing the whole Hard Mode/Second Quest thing, then I'll do it as quickly as I'm able.
For what it's worth, I already have all the files I need; with the PGE editor I can open the vanilla levels and Weston's 'second version' of Hard Mode to see how they differ, while I also have SMBX open with the 'vanilla version' of Hard Mode (only changes being faster enemies, Furbas->Skulls, and smaller platforms) to make my actual changes and test-play stuff.

While I'm at it, a quick thought about the end of 8-4 to make an actual 'resolution' to the game... the current text is

guy: Thank you [PLAYER CHARACTER], but Calleoca is in another castle... ('Calleoca' should probably be changed to 'our stuff/your stuff')

Calleoca: Haha, just kidding!
Hey sis. It was really me who took all your stuff, I just wanted to mess with you.
I hid it all in [POSTGAME INTENSIFIES]

and perhaps Calleoca's last line could be changed to

That was fun, but let's head back to the ship now. You have at least several more games to get through.

(though I'm not 'knowledgeable' enough to know if this is in-character or 'close enough to canon'; could change it as need be). Just something to wrap things up.
For that matter, all of the 'citizen' guys say "but our stuff is in another location", which should probably be changed to "your stuff"?

As an aside, something else I was doing for Hard Mode/Second Quest was making all the dudes say a different thing per world, with the aim being them getting all weird and garbled up as you get farther. Is that acceptable?

And then perhaps there's a 'victory fanfare' before an event to make Demo/Iris walk to the right and into a warp that goes to the credits, with a leek awarded after the credits (because currently the leek is in 8-4 and sends you back to the Hub afterward). If that sounds good to you.


No idea what to do about 0-1, but maybe I could try to play around and find something? Or we could just scrap it since it's 'bonus content' and it doesn't necessarily go anywhere...?

[Kil]

I don't think there is enough stuff in the smb1 toolkit to just bang out 9 more worlds and have them be interesting

[Doctor Shemp]

swirlybomb, my opinion on whether or not you should do that depends entirely on how long you think it will take you to make it.

[swirlybomb]

I don't think there is enough stuff in the smb1 toolkit to just bang out 9 more worlds and have them be interesting

I'm not making new levels/worlds from scratch, I'm just taking the existing levels (8 worlds, not challenge world) and changing them up a bit.


As for how long it would take... Doing the first three worlds (sans 2-2) took me under a week, so I'd like to say the rest could theoretically be done in a week or two... On the plus side, I'm finally 'catching up' on the various things I need to be doing, so I shouldn't have trouble finding the time to work on it; but on the other hand, I'd like to do a new animation before the month is over as well... although I'm probably going to try and find a simple-ish frame-by-frame thing to try rather than doing a full animation, so hopefully that shouldn't be TOO much of an issue...

So if you guys don't mind waiting a week or two for me to do it, then I will, but if it'd be better to just release the game without it just to stop delaying it further, and then perhaps add it in later, then I suppose that's an option as well. ...But then that would mean it was delayed so long for nothing ;_; I feel really bad that this was meant to be a super-quick project that was made and released in a month or two, and instead it's been the majority of a year already.

[Doctor Shemp]

Well, even if we use your Hard Mode, the several months preceding that will still be wasted since they weren't spent on your version. They're sunk time that's wasted no matter what we do. So if we did scrap your version, less than a week would be wasted.

My other concern is that there's still testing time to factor in and we have a vastly reduced pool of testers. It's basically just me & WestonSmith since you can't fairly test your own material.

Maybe I'd be less concerned that we're standing still if we started planning SDS 2 now and worked on them concurrently.

[Doctor Shemp]

It's come to my attention through the Skypehaus that several people are already playing the game as-is. With that in mind, how's your progress on Hard Mode?

[swirlybomb]

It's come to my attention through the Skypehaus that several people are already playing the game as-is. With that in mind, how's your progress on Hard Mode?

Ech, really? I apologize for my absence. I've been busy with other things that have taken priority, but now I can make finishing this my primary focus. I finished up through world 5 on the weekend (though I'm a bit afraid that my worlds 4/5 aren't as 'creative/interesting' as 1-3...) and I'm starting on world 6 today. As for testing, I don't mind if there's only one or two other people (ie. Weston and Shemp), I imagine that's really just fine and if there are any spots that are actually too hard/unfair, they can just easily be tweaked.

And please, by all means start planning for SDS2, if that'll help things!! Don't let me hold you back because of this...

Um was the fact that you can throw fireballs in an upward arc and you swim quicker vertically when holding down and up removed because they don't seem so?

Were they supposed to be? I don't think it would really 'add' anything to the experience.

[swirlybomb]

I... disagree? I always found it appropriately difficult (though perhaps not as 'difficult' as other world-9 levels, or something).


Something I meant to make mention of: I noticed that in all the underwater levels (2-2, 5-2's 'bonus' area, 7-2, 9-3) that you can swim underneath the floor because the 'floor' tiles don't extend down past the level boundary. Probably worth a fix?

[Leet]

if removing those two things (the fireballs going up and the swimming) isnt hard i would say you guys should do it to preserve the SMB1 atmosphere even more

[Doctor Shemp]

Something I meant to make mention of: I noticed that in all the underwater levels (2-2, 5-2's 'bonus' area, 7-2, 9-3) that you can swim underneath the floor because the 'floor' tiles don't extend down past the level boundary. Probably worth a fix?

If it means you can bypass the entire level, that definitely needs to be fixed.

Also, I playtested the first three worlds of your Hard Mode, which I think is all you've released so far. Except for one jump early on in 3-4 which I think is extremely annoying and time-consuming without actually being challenging and so should be removed, and the fact that the levels aren't linked properly, it seems fine to me.

[swirlybomb]

Um was the fact that you can throw fireballs in an upward arc and you swim quicker vertically when holding down and up removed because they don't seem so?

Were they supposed to be? I don't think it would really 'add' anything to the experience.

It completely nullifies the difficulty in 9-3

I... disagree? I always found it appropriately difficult (though perhaps not as 'difficult' as other world-9 levels, or something).

SORRY, I'M A DUMB

Since swimming was also mentioned, I was actually thinking of 9-5 (the actual underwater level) rather than 9-3, so my comment is totally inaccurate.
The original version of 9-3 was absurd, and if throwing fireballs upward made it easier, I'd consider that to be a good thing (but good luck getting/keeping fireballs to begin with). Then I nerfed the heck out of it to a point where I thought it was more reasonable. Don't know which version Weston kept.


re: Shemp

You know you can go under jumping Paragoopas too, right...? You wouldn't have died so much at the very end of 3-2 if you had just stayed on the steps and gone under it, rather than trying to jump on it while running away. Bananasnakes also throw bananas in an arc, so if you're standing near it (rather than keeping your distance, or running away after a banana's been thrown/already over your head), it won't hurt you. And once you're past a Bananasnake (especially if you got hurt and have invincibility frames), you can just keep going forward because it no longer poses a threat, rather than attempting to still try and kill it.
...I apologize, I couldn't think of a more polite way to say that!

If you need help dealing with Bananasnakes, this is what I find to be the most reliable: get close to them, wait for a banana, then jump.

Regarding "that one jump" in 3-4... I think you're really just making it harder on yourself, that wasn't even supposed to be an obstacle >.> Just hold right as you jump and you'll land on the platform. But if it's really a bother then it could be changed. As for the firebars immediately after it, if you're on the second or third platform, you can jump straight up and jump over them easily (even as Demo), giving you 'time to think' before continuing. But I think reversing the first firebar so that they're all going the same way (and thus it's more of a straight shot) would make it easier, so I'll see what works I guess.

Regarding your mention of Podoboos jumping up through the blocks at the beginning of 2-4... I agree that would be a more interesting obstacle, but at the same time it personally bugs me to have Podoboos jumping up through platforms. But then again it is seen elsewhere (particularly in the Bowser/Bananasnake King fights), so I suppose it's not really an issue... Though you wouldn't need to "clear it in a single cycle", you can easily jump straight up to avoid them.

I'm probably rambling about pointless things, so instead here are worlds 4 through 6: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/147 ... rd_4-6.rar
I'll be making tweaks to worlds 1-3 as well, based on what was noticed in your video.

Actually I'm afraid that I might be making these a touch too hard in my attempts to make each level feel "more different/harder", possibly even harder than world 9... Maybe I'll have to go back and tone down the difficulty of everything once I'm done...?

[Doctor Shemp]

You don't need to apologise for not being polite enough: that was all phrased very politely. Probably much more politely than I would have phrased it. Anyway, here's my test of Worlds 4-6.

Critical problem: there's no folder for H6-3, meaning there's no LunaDLL, and no fast enemies. As such I didn't test it.

Grammatical problem: in H4-4, it should either be "thy possession doth" or "thy possessions do", not "thy possessions doth", since "doth" is third-person singular and "do" is third-person plural. Grammar nerd alert! Also, if you're going for a 16th century feel, "belonging(s)" would be more time-appropriate than "possession(s)". Aren't Demo & Iris just looking for the single Super Leek though? So "thy belonging doth" would be the best option, I think.

Graphical problem: a couple of levels use green spinies. I think they're all meant to be standardised as red spinies.

In regards to the difficulty, there's one jumping paragoopa in a really confined space (I think in World 6 somewhere but I can't remember since I recorded this yesterday and stupidly forgot to take notes) that is impossible to get past if you wait too long (unless you wait even longer for it to get through the tunnel but that's a lot to ask with a lakitu raining down spinies), but there's so much else going on that it's extremely difficult not to wait. Could you move it back a little? That might fix it. Also, 6-4 gave me loads of grief. I think you may have left yourself nowhere to go difficulty-wise without well and truly exceeding World 9 difficulty by the time you reach 8-4.

[swirlybomb]

My concern about politeness is because I've had multiple experiences (here and elsewhere) of people getting upset because what I said sounded mean or offensive when it really wasn't supposed to be. Especially since I'm basically directly criticizing your playing ability... >_>

Much like I'm doing right now!

Go under Paragoopas

shemp pls.png (40.46 KiB) Viewed 6896 times

6-3 not having a folder was an oversight on my putting the .rar together... my bad: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/147 ... b_H6-3.rar
6-3's probably the most-changed of any level I've done; it's pretty much a completely different level, so it's kinda sad you didn't test it :v But you can test it 'properly' now.

For the 4-4 text... I was really hoping to use something more archaic than just 'do', but if it's the only grammatically-correct form, I guess it'll have to do... Unless it is supposed to be singular 'belonging/possession'; I interpreted "our/your stuff" from the normal text as a plural, but... yeah.

For the Spinies/Caterpillars, the main game uses red ones in 4-1, 7-1 (only a single one though), and 8-1, but green ones in 6-1 and 7-4. I didn't bring it up before because I thought it was kinda neat that it alternated between the colors each time they showed up, but if they should all be red, then perhaps that should be fixed in the main game as well. I was going to keep up the alternating pattern, but kinda 'forgot' about it partway through, so the red/green placement may be a bit haphazard. I can definitely change it to be all-red (or all-green?), though.

As for difficulty, based on your video(s) I can identify where things should be toned down, so I aim to make further tweaks to levels to try and make them not SUPER difficult and stuff. It's the kind of thing that's harder to identify when playing it yourself and easier when watching someone else do it. Worlds 7 and 8 are already pretty challenging, so I don't think I need to make too many changes anyway...

For that matter though, I feel kinda bad about what I've been doing, because I've been trying really hard to change up each level into something 'different' than the original, when Weston's stated goal of Hard Mode was to not make TOO many layout changes because that'll make it take longer and require more testing... And I just went ahead and went off doing my own thing and probably doing too much. Sorry, perhaps...?



Status update: I just have 2-2, 7-2, 8-4, and the underwater segment of 5-2 (left all the underwater areas for last...) left to go. Plus tweaks to already-finished levels, that is. I don't expect to get anything done today because I may be playing Smash all day, but I hope it's enough to show that this is getting pretty close to done? As long as I don't get burnt out first.

Question: Should I add some 'palette swaps' to the environments in some worlds (taking them from 'graphics packs' that have recolors already made) to make Hard Mode more 'interesting', or just leave everything as-is because that would be going 'too far' with the changes? On one hand I know we want to use the vanilla A2MBXT resources as much as possible, but on the other hand, those things are already the vanilla SMBX stuff anyway. Something.

[pholtos]

So what exactly was changed in 6-3 out of curiosity?

[swirlybomb]

If you're concerned at all about me totally screwing up your level, please don't be :o Of course your version of 6-3 is still in the game in normal mode, I just chose to totally rearrange it for hard mode. I just looked at a few places and thought "what if I did this instead?" and... it's pretty much an entirely new level.

Thankfully the PGE Editor thingy has a convenient snapshot tool:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/147 ... tion_1.png

[pholtos]

If the design was greatly improved in whatever version you changed (hard mode was it?) then I'm completely fine with it. I'm not exactly a good level designer.

[Mabel]

I actually though we were going with the idea of semi significant stage changes despite it being extra testing...

that said, I had the idea of building off my original 8-4 and changing it around for Hard mode(basically bringing back all the sections that got cut), if you wanna do it tho thats cool...