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Bugs, Testing, and Help (Oh My!)

Compound Fraxure
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Re: Bugs, Testing, and Help (Oh My!)

Post by Compound Fraxure »

Okay, here is the (hopefully) final version of 4-2.
https://www.mediafire.com/?jnq87dy5n7h3qv9
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Re: Bugs, Testing, and Help (Oh My!)

Post by aterraformer »

Clemasterable wrote:3. (Very minor) You can't beat the level
Dammit, I kinda figured that would happen. You are supposed to bounce on the Blooper but since LunaDLL never wanted to work for me, I could never test that. I should probably just not do it.

Also, I don't understand 2
raocow wrote:the plan is to wait for Jump to be released and then replacing the graphics without telling anyone involved with Jump.
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Re: Bugs, Testing, and Help (Oh My!)

Post by swirlybomb »

re 8-4: Fair enough! Just an idea.

1-2:
Lacking the proper intro, and the resource folder to make the flagpole work (that is, the replacement graphic and text files); but overall a pretty solid, simple level. I would recommend placing the coins that are over pits higher so that they're easier to get/follow the player's normal jump arc better, and increasing the time increment on the platform generators (the alleged standard mentioned in the demo is 3 seconds I think? but less may still be fine as long as they're just not so crowded together). I'm not sure about the last spot where you have platforms going in both directions; maybe it's fine, or maybe it should be cut to just one, I don't know for sure.

Probably want to include a hidden warp zone somewhere too? It could easily be accessed by one of the pipes, if you don't want to do the 'go over the ceiling' shtick (or something else, whatever).
3-1:
Don't forget to submit it in a PM to WestonSmith! (unless you did already)

4-2:
Huzzah, it works! Submit dat stuff yo

9-2:
Apologies, I must have missed this the first time!

30+ deaths for me... the ideas are alright, but there are some problem spots:
The first big jump could stand to be one block shorter; it is doable, but it would be just a tad less annoying.
9-2 1.png
9-2 1.png (21.03 KiB) Viewed 8905 times
This drop is already tricky without the extra pressure from the Goopa on the ledge; again, it's doable, but I personally think it could stand to be less annoying.
9-2 2.png
9-2 2.png (23.66 KiB) Viewed 8905 times
I have no idea how to get past this plant guy without getting hurt. Merely getting down to make the jump already takes nearly frame-perfect timing, and making it through without damage seems like total luck.
9-2 3.png
9-2 3.png (35.27 KiB) Viewed 8905 times
I don't think this jump is possible to clear?
9-2 4.png
9-2 4.png (26.62 KiB) Viewed 8905 times
(after editing the level to skip the aforementioned jump)
I also had no idea what the timing was to get through here without hitting the plant (but I didn't test it as many times as the rest of the level).
I think the alcoves immediately to the left of this spot could be a touch less annoying if they were one block taller, but it's not a necessary change. It's definitely worth nothing that one can potentially break all the bricks in between and make that spot almost(? didn't test in detail) impassable as a result (unbreakable blocks in that zone would fix that easily).

I think the exit pipe should have ground underneath its entrance, but it could be just me...

The rest of the core design seemed okay to me, though.
9-8:
More firebar shenanigans!
As a whole it seems pretty good; a little long, but that seems appropriate for this stage. I think there ought to be some kind of 'safe spot' in the pit with three criss-cross firebars just so the player has time to analyze how to get through, but it is still doable as-is. Perhaps one more powerup around the middle of the level? But most of the latter half is fairly straightforward, so maybe it's not necessary.

Worth noting that there are several instances where kicked shells can destroy fireballs, so I'd recommend either moving the fireballs so that it's not possible to kill them, or put in a new effect-1 so that they don't appear as Furbas.

Cosmetic thing: maybe move the black zone higher, just because it's so easy to jump up into it? Other alternatives would be a ceiling or just nothing. But it's purely a cosmetic thing.
0-1:
Good news: floating Bloopers work. Just so you know.

No Turn Back isn't on, as Clemasterable mentioned. I'm not totally sure about the music? I imagine using custom music for the 'minus world' level, but I dunno about the choice of song? If nothing else, it begins fading out almost right away and that element kinda clashes with the other songs having perfect loops. Anyway...

That first firebar has extremely strict timing; probably 90% of my deaths came from trying to pass it alone. Spinning in the other direction would make it much easier (or if you don't want "MUCH easier", altering it so that it's "fairly easier" would work too). There are a couple enemies that you've replaced with vanilla SMB1 graphics; I wasn't sure if that was intentional (because, y'know, minus world) or not. I assume we're supposed to be sticking with the non-SMB3 Lakitus too (that is, instead you'd choose the SMW Spiny and click the 'Lakitu' option for it)? And as Clem mentioned; the level is impossible to complete; even though your intended solution is to jump on the Blooper to make it, Bloopers can't be jumped on in this engine (as far as I can tell); it's not a LunaDLL issue.

Overall... I dunno, it doesn't really feel 'minus world'-y to me? It does have some elements mixed from different level types, but otherwise is more or less an ordinary level (kinda). I suppose it depends on whether we intend for this level to just be a weird little bonus or to just go nuts with making it seem 'weird and unintentional'. ...Well, you get the idea perhaps. At the very least, I think making the main level tune be the underwater theme and the bonus area be the underground theme would be a start, but that's just me.
anonymousbl00dlust wrote:All the obstacles in my level can be beaten on the players first attempt without any 'future predicting'.
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Re: Bugs, Testing, and Help (Oh My!)

Post by Leet »

swirlybomb wrote: 1-2:
Lacking the proper intro, and the resource folder to make the flagpole work (that is, the replacement graphic and text files); but overall a pretty solid, simple level. I would recommend placing the coins that are over pits higher so that they're easier to get/follow the player's normal jump arc better, and increasing the time increment on the platform generators (the alleged standard mentioned in the demo is 3 seconds I think? but less may still be fine as long as they're just not so crowded together). I'm not sure about the last spot where you have platforms going in both directions; maybe it's fine, or maybe it should be cut to just one, I don't know for sure.

Probably want to include a hidden warp zone somewhere too? It could easily be accessed by one of the pipes, if you don't want to do the 'go over the ceiling' shtick (or something else, whatever).
Yeah I was focusing on making the level itself and didn't worry about intro/exit standards just yet.

The platform times I can fix, and the two-going-together was supposed to be pretty silly so I could totally remove it if I had to. But I like it.

I wasn't gonna include a warp zone since I thought I read somewhere that WestonSmith was gonna add them in later.
Well it is a decent hack but sometime its just too repetitif there no level that actually pop in your face and your like oh yeah that level they all ressemble themselves and just monster along the way.
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Re: Bugs, Testing, and Help (Oh My!)

Post by swirlybomb »

Yeah, totally understandable. I brought up the warp zone because Compound Fraxure went to the trouble of making individual locations/paths for all his warp zones and you may opt to do the same (it'd probably ease Weston's workload a tad if he didn't have to put in the content, but I'm not the boss of anyone on this matter). The double-platforms I imagine could stay, it just looks really cluttered when they're spawning so quickly.
anonymousbl00dlust wrote:All the obstacles in my level can be beaten on the players first attempt without any 'future predicting'.
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Re: Bugs, Testing, and Help (Oh My!)

Post by Leet »

Updated 1-2 with coin and platform changes.

Also, I should note that the top-of-the-screen at the end is intentionally made to be just barely possible to reach, but challenging, so it would be a good spot for putting the warp zone, since although nearly all players will suspect it's up there, they may not necessarily actually get up there.
Well it is a decent hack but sometime its just too repetitif there no level that actually pop in your face and your like oh yeah that level they all ressemble themselves and just monster along the way.
Blood Ghoul wrote:Sometimes it seems my blood spurts out in gobs, as if it were a fountain's pulsing sobs. I clearly hear it mutter as it goes yet cannot find the wound from which it flows. Before I met you, baby, I didn't know what I was missing.
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Re: Bugs, Testing, and Help (Oh My!)

Post by Zygl »

swirlybomb wrote:9-2:
Apologies, I must have missed this the first time!
-Eh, it was mildly broken-ish anyway.

30+ deaths for me... the ideas are alright, but there are some problem spots:
The first big jump could stand to be one block shorter; it is doable, but it would be just a tad less annoying.
-Done... probably. I moved the edges of that pit around about 4 times to make it a bit less trivial to just start running right after dropping into the level, but I'm pretty sure it's one block shorter now.
9-2 1.png
This drop is already tricky without the extra pressure from the Goopa on the ledge; again, it's doable, but I personally think it could stand to be less annoying.
-Apparently that jump can also be a block longer and still be entirely possible, so I got rid of the Goopa and did that, hopefully it's not too annoying.
9-2 2.png
I have no idea how to get past this plant guy without getting hurt. Merely getting down to make the jump already takes nearly frame-perfect timing, and making it through without damage seems like total luck.
-I always just landed on the edge of the pipe in testing... but admittedly that was mostly by luck half the time, so yeah, got rid of that.
9-2 3.png
I don't think this jump is possible to clear?
-It is, it's just that the timings on the platforms are entirely dependent on when the generators scroll onto the screen. Which is a pretty severe design flaw that I'm really hoping I have a fix for figured out, but it's like 6 AM here, I'll try that out when I wake up in the mid-afternoon.
9-2 4.png
(after editing the level to skip the aforementioned jump)
I also had no idea what the timing was to get through here without hitting the plant (but I didn't test it as many times as the rest of the level).
-After trying it a few times testing out a slight tweak I made so the higher Goopa there would quit bonking his head on the blocks, looks like the thing to do is go when the plant is all the way out of the pipe? I mostly just landed on the edge and didn't bother timing it, though.
I think the alcoves immediately to the left of this spot could be a touch less annoying if they were one block taller, but it's not a necessary change.
-Tried it, made that whole section hilariously easy.
It's definitely worth nothing that one can potentially break all the bricks in between and make that spot almost(? didn't test in detail) impassable as a result (unbreakable blocks in that zone would fix that easily).
-I really have no idea why I didn't do that, I even thought to do it and everything. It's fixed now. I also made sure to leave some of them breakable for the sake of making some head room on those jumps if you're big.

I think the exit pipe should have ground underneath its entrance, but it could be just me...
-The idea there is that the platforms are the ground underneath its entrance. Not sure if it actually works that way or if SMBX lets you just jump into it without the platform, but that was the idea.

The rest of the core design seemed okay to me, though.
Updated version to come tomorrow, hopefully. I would just upload it now, but then I'd have to upload it again once I figure out a fix for the platform timings at that one part and it'd just be dumb all-around.
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Re: Bugs, Testing, and Help (Oh My!)

Post by Zygl »

OH MAN DOUBLE-POST.

Here's the fifth revision somehow. My intended fix was completely useless, so I tried about a million different things to force the player to spawn the platforms at the correct timings. I think it's impossible to create an unwinnable situation now? At the very least I don't know how one could do it.
But I also just realized I only put one Paragoopa in the Paragoopa jump I had to add to that area, so it's completely impossible in two-player mode. Yay.
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Re: Bugs, Testing, and Help (Oh My!)

Post by aterraformer »

I honestly don't know what to do about my 0-1. Admittedly, it's pretty lackluster for a minus world. If moving it, removing it or attempting to completely remodel it is necessary so be it.
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Re: Bugs, Testing, and Help (Oh My!)

Post by Clamestarebla »

The underwater part was super neat so maybe just redo the first section instead
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Re: Bugs, Testing, and Help (Oh My!)

Post by swirlybomb »

9-2:
Keep in mind these are my own opinions, as always;
-Somehow I don't think removing the red Goopa at that first drop (penalty for missing: getting hit) with a smaller platform to land on (penalty for missing: death) is really an improvement/any kind of easier than before!
-That drop to where the plant used to be still takes pretty much frame-perfect timing to get through.
-Rising/falling platforms at the end:
Zyglrox Odyssey wrote:My intended fix was completely useless, so I tried about a million different things to force the player to spawn the platforms at the correct timings.
Alternative solution: create a different obstacle. It's still an incredibly difficult portion to get through and feels borderline unfair. Even less-obstructive walls would be better. I'm just not really a fan because of how finicky it is to try and get it right.
aterraformer wrote:I honestly don't know what to do about my 0-1. Admittedly, it's pretty lackluster for a minus world. If moving it, removing it or attempting to completely remodel it is necessary so be it.
Rough idea: make the 'main' section look all underwater, but have it be normal platforming? (to contrast the bonus area looking not-underwater yet actually being underwater). Make things look weird and out-of-place next to other stuff. I acknowledge that it's probably tough to try and make a 'minus world/weird and glitchy-looking' level, but I'm sure it can be done.


...I'm making another call for testing on 9-7 if at all possible; my primary concerns being the length and difficulty, but any feedback would be appreciated.
anonymousbl00dlust wrote:All the obstacles in my level can be beaten on the players first attempt without any 'future predicting'.
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Re: Bugs, Testing, and Help (Oh My!)

Post by Zygl »

swirlybomb wrote:9-2:
Keep in mind these are my own opinions, as always;
-Somehow I don't think removing the red Goopa at that first drop (penalty for missing: getting hit) with a smaller platform to land on (penalty for missing: death) is really an improvement/any kind of easier than before!
-My thinking there was that a slightly more difficult jump would be easier than trying to time the Goopa and the Paragoopa to do the jump without getting hit, but now that I look at it more closely I notice it's literally impossible when you're big unless you duck in the air. With Iris, at least. So fair point there, I guess.
-That drop to where the plant used to be still takes pretty much frame-perfect timing to get through.
-I don't know how much I can loosen up the timing on that without it being completely breakable, but I'll look into it.
-Rising/falling platforms at the end:
Zyglrox Odyssey wrote:My intended fix was completely useless, so I tried about a million different things to force the player to spawn the platforms at the correct timings.
Alternative solution: create a different obstacle. It's still an incredibly difficult portion to get through and feels borderline unfair. Even less-obstructive walls would be better. I'm just not really a fan because of how finicky it is to try and get it right.
-Thinking about it, I'm pretty sure at some point I forgot the somewhat important detail that the player kinda has to be able to get through this thing with enough lives to beat 6 other levels and doesn't exactly have a lot of them to begin with. Considering that, yeah that jump's completely ridiculous. And shortening the wall a bit didn't really make any difference. I'm going to look into taking out an actually significant portion of the wall, but if that doesn't really help I'm batting around the idea of flipping one of those generators upside-down and seeing what interesting things I can do with that.
...I'm making another call for testing on 9-7 if at all possible; my primary concerns being the length and difficulty, but any feedback would be appreciated.
It felt insanely long and wasn't especially difficult anywhere there's not a banana snake, but a gauntlet level sort of thing seems appropriate for the second-to-last level.
I don't have any specific complaints, really, except that I have no idea how you're supposed to find the invisible vine block at that wall aside from randomly jumping around and hitting the block below it.
I feel like I'm being pretty massively unhelpful, so sorry about that.
Also, as an aside, I have to admit I fell for that vine block above the pipe. Figuratively and literally. That was pretty good.
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Re: Bugs, Testing, and Help (Oh My!)

Post by Mabel »

swirlybomb wrote: 9-8:
Worth noting that there are several instances where kicked shells can destroy fireballs, so I'd recommend either moving the fireballs so that it's not possible to kill them, or put in a new effect-1 so that they don't appear as Furbas.
Isint there a way to make npc's truly invincible?

e:aaaand npcblock worked, buuuuut
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Re: Bugs, Testing, and Help (Oh My!)

Post by QuantumPhysicsMan »

Well, I finally got around to fixing 3-4.

https://www.mediafire.com/?s9cjwugq6a3335w
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Re: Bugs, Testing, and Help (Oh My!)

Post by Mabel »

QuantumPhysicsMan wrote:Well, I finally got around to fixing 3-4.

https://www.mediafire.com/?s9cjwugq6a3335w
great, one thing tho...
the fireballs can be killed with fire demo, so throw in a nofireball=1 on that
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Re: Bugs, Testing, and Help (Oh My!)

Post by pholtos »

I finally made 6-3. Of course I don't think it's good enough yet, just a first shot at it.

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Re: Bugs, Testing, and Help (Oh My!)

Post by Axon »

Pholtos wrote:I finally made 6-3. Of course I don't think it's good enough yet, just a first shot at it.

Here.
-I think it's a bit short. Maybe you could add an extra 2 or 3 screens?
-It feels a bit "empty". Consider adding stuff like coins and blocks.
-Since this is a mushroom tops level you could use moving platforms or pulley platforms (if you want an example of pulley platforms, check out 4-3)
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Re: Bugs, Testing, and Help (Oh My!)

Post by swirlybomb »

Man, I guess that's 2/2 people that don't care for my Lost Levels hidden vine homage thing. Suppose I'll have to make it more obvious then...
You [Zyglrox] say it's "insanely" long rather than "really" long, so I'm thinking I should try and shorten some sections as well... I'll have to give it another once-over.
Zyglrox Odyssey wrote:Also, as an aside, I have to admit I fell for that vine block above the pipe. Figuratively and literally. That was pretty good.
Ah... are you saying you hit the block and just fell off the pipe? There is a 'bonus' room that the vine leads to, in case you're saying you didn't find it. Nothing exciting, but yeah.
Mabel wrote:e:aaaand npcblock worked, buuuuut
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBIijvBOU9c
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3-4 looks good.
I basically just agree with Axon re: 6-3. Could stand to be a bit longer and have coins and powerups and stuff (granted, it does appear to be more of a 'rough layout' so you're probably already aware of that; also, No Turn Back should be on). Coin trails to guide the player on the blind-ish/long jumps would be encouraged. I think it's worth noting that the jump up to the Bananasnake near the end needs to be dead-on or else you'll take a hit; it's easier to just wait for him to fall off the edge (unless that's an intended option). Moving the trio of green Paragoopas back by one block would offer a touch more reaction time to deal with them, just because it's a tricky formation to deal with.
Little nitpick: I think the cloud platform is most likely reserved for Coin Heaven areas, so may want to swap it for something else?

...Wow, I totally didn't "just agree with Axon" at all!
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Re: Bugs, Testing, and Help (Oh My!)

Post by cheez8 »

Hey, quick update on my progress on 7-4 (after way too long): Well, I fixed my first problem and got all of my instant warps on the right layers, but I ran into a second problem: I had some invisible swap mushrooms showing or hiding layers of instant warps upon death (in other words, when you run into them) but as it turns out, with the "No Turning Back" option, something is considered dead if it's been off the left side of the screen for too long. I can work around this by making the swap mushroom points and the instant warps closer, but that will take me... well, however long it'll take me to rebuild over half the level from scratch, more or less.

I'll take a look at 4-2 as well, though, since that level apparently found a good way to pull this off. (Thanks for saying so, swirlybomb!) Otherwise... well, sorry about holding things up. Most of the wait on this level was my fault, and I'll try to keep from getting hyperdistracted like that again.
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Re: Bugs, Testing, and Help (Oh My!)

Post by Kil »

Has anyone tried using lunadll trigger zones to do the maze warps? Those should not have the problems of the other methods. If someone can send me their castle maz level thing I can try it myself
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Re: Bugs, Testing, and Help (Oh My!)

Post by cheez8 »

...I was just about to edit that last post saying I have no idea what Compound Fraxure did in 4-2, and I don't even see where the "backwards in the level" part happens even when I'm searching for it, but... Well, I suppose a reply will do now.

I haven't tried using trigger zones for the warps yet. I haven't used lunadll yet either, so I don't really know how I'd go about it. Would it really be alright to have you try to do that part? My level still has some sections I haven't bothered to clean up yet, so I can't send it quite yet, but... You know lunadll way better than I do, so I'd really appreciate the help.
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Re: Bugs, Testing, and Help (Oh My!)

Post by Kil »

Well I just want to see if it will work at all... then if it works I can explain it
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Re: Bugs, Testing, and Help (Oh My!)

Post by WestonSmith »

Yes, I'm late for my own deadline.

Here's a HEAVILY revised 9-1.

Less gimmicky, less difficult, more platformy. It might not seem special enough for World 9, unfortunately. Not sure how to fix that.

(NOTE: It's incomplete at the moment. Coins and an exit to follow.)
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Re: Bugs, Testing, and Help (Oh My!)

Post by Zygl »

Not gonna lie, it's been so long since I've even looked at 9-2 that I forgot what I was doing with it.
I uploaded what I have right now since I remember I made some changes to it, but I'm only just now remembering I wanted to look into if there's any amount of wall that can be removed to make that one jump more reasonable for being in an 8-level thing. I'll be sure to do that later, for now there's a slightly different sort of obstacle that come to think of it is at least as bad as the previous one, possibly worse.
Whoops.
...Yeah let's just pretend I only uploaded this to see if I loosened up that "frame-perfect" part enough, next time I go to upload a revision I'll make sure that one jump isn't completely stupid anymore, maybe play some other World 9 levels to get a feel for what sort of difficulty we're even aiming for.
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Re: Bugs, Testing, and Help (Oh My!)

Post by Clamestarebla »

First draft of 1-1
https://www.mediafire.com/?2ciix2te875vt3r
Oh my, not a water level.
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