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Bugs, Testing, and Help (Oh My!)

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Re: Bugs, Testing, and Help (Oh My!)

Post by swirlybomb »

WestonSmith wrote:(NOTE: It's incomplete at the moment. Coins and an exit to follow.)
But there are already coins??
9-1:
Seems pretty alright overall (the running over one-tile holes is a nice setpiece), though maybe it could use a bit more 'punch' to it somehow. A couple 'trouble spots' that I think are worth pointing out would be the jump over the big hole to the first Hammer Bro (one can wait for him to just fall in the hole, but I imagine that's not the intended method- I haven't figured out a way to consistently get past him without getting hit otherwise), and the second-to-last jump where there's a green Paragoopa above and a Furba on the ledge you're trying to land on (the Furba will almost certainly hit the player if they don't jump on the Paragoopa because you're moving fast and there's virtually no time to react; the Hammer Bro above is also tricky to get past if he doesn't fall off the ledge, but that part's still doable).

Probably worth noting that the lower Hammer Bro of the pair near the beginning/middle can very easily get stuck in the pipe to the left. I'd also recommend changing the positioning of the coins after the running jump across the red Paragoopa to follow the player's arc better (which is a bit higher), and suggest adding a second arc of coins going over the pipe to land on the falling platform (these are visual cues to the player to just continue holding right/run/jump).

Also possibly of note is that you can overlap background objects and such to avoid the "cutoff" that was in the original SMB1- just an aesthetic thing though.
9-2:
Judging by your commentary, it's a little hard to tell if I should be reviewing this or not!

The first "frame-perfect part" is definitely more doable currently. Just to clarify what I meant with all the frame-perfect comments (since I didn't go into specific detail and you may not be sure what I was getting at); in order to slip past a passing platform and land on the next one below, you need to fall as soon as the first platform rises past with an incredibly narrow timeframe - too early and you'll fall in the pit before the next platform spawns, too late and you won't have time to get through the gap below. With the heightened 'ceiling' I was able to get through it more or less every time, but I don't know for certain how someone who hasn't seen it before would be able to handle it (since I've already done so many times myself and such).

The latter part is certainly better than before, but it's still an incredibly awkward jump to time; having to jump from a rising platform to land on the one below it the moment it appears in order to get underneath the wall to land on the next one.

Something I'm realizing as I look at this again is that I'm just not a fan of all the jumps where the ceiling overhangs the floor by one block;
like so
like so
brickceiling.png (3.63 KiB) Viewed 6443 times
of which there are three. The first two I can understand because you're kinda bouncing back 'up' to them from a close distance, but the last one is approached from far away, making it easy to hit the wall above and die.
Although I can appreciate the 'theme' of the level is more or less 'claustrophobia', I feel like there are just parts where it's just kinda being a nuisance.
I dunno, I wish someone else was also reviewing levels so you could have a second opinion on that element. Hope I'm not dragging you down at all.
Clemasterable wrote:Oh my, not a water level.
That's it, I'm canceling Fez 2.
1-1:
While it's an alright early-game level, I don't think it quite works for 1-1. Just for starters, Piranha Plants and Paragoopas don't appear until 1-2 and 1-3 (respectively), so Furbas and Goopas should be the only enemies present (and it's possible that red Goopas are only supposed to debut in 1-3 as well, but I don't know for sure if that matters).

I think there was already discussion in this forum (not sure where it is right now) that 1-1 is kinda really important because it has to 'explain' all the core gameplay elements to the player in an implicit way. Here's a detailed analysis on 1-1 of SMB1 and why it does everything it does. Obviously you don't need to try and copy it exactly (nor should you), but I think that at the very least the idea here would be to introduce each obstacle of the level gradually, one at a time, in an easygoing fashion, while your current draft more or less throws everything into the player's face at once.

Also minor things like "I don't think the side-pipes are kosher for being used in normal levels" and that 'pit' with four assorted enemies in it but the only prizes in the boxes are 2 coins (very disproportionate 'reward' for the effort required, considering it's 1-1). 'Less pits' might be something else I'd add.
Sorry for my long delays, just got a lot I've kinda been dealing with recently... don't mean to delay this game so far past its original deadline.
anonymousbl00dlust wrote:All the obstacles in my level can be beaten on the players first attempt without any 'future predicting'.
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Re: Bugs, Testing, and Help (Oh My!)

Post by Doctor Shemp »

Yeah, 1-1 is the most important level of the game. The best way to test it is to give it to someone who's never ever played a platformer game before, don't tell them how anything works, and then see if they can beat it anyway. If they can't, if they repeat the same mistake more than once, or if they ever ask a question that they can't immediately find the answer to in the game (e.g. what happens if I hit this box? What happens if I land on this guy? What happens if I touch this guy?) then it fails in its mission.
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Re: Bugs, Testing, and Help (Oh My!)

Post by swirlybomb »

hnnnnnnnggggg

I asked Weston for a second opinion on whether having a 'marathon level that's not too difficult' as the second-to-last level seems okay, and he said he thinks it seems fitting (though he hasn't tried it himself), but I'm just not confident on whether 9-7's good or not! I suppose the length may be okay, but I want to make sure it's not too hard too. I made one more small update which removes a handful of things, makes the hidden vine as 'obvious but hidden' as I think I can make it without pointing a big arrow at it, and adds a super-ultra shortcut right near the beginning that skips to the last section (though does that 'solve' anything?). I suppose my primary concern is "are there any points where you're actually likely to die or should be easier?" and such and... yeah. If there are any necessary changes to make, I can make them.
anonymousbl00dlust wrote:All the obstacles in my level can be beaten on the players first attempt without any 'future predicting'.
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Re: Bugs, Testing, and Help (Oh My!)

Post by pholtos »

Sorry about the long delay between updates. Here's attempt two at 6-3.

Edit: If I forgot the music it's suppose to be the normal music for that style of smb level.
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Re: Bugs, Testing, and Help (Oh My!)

Post by Zygl »

swirlybomb wrote:9-2:
Judging by your commentary, it's a little hard to tell if I should be reviewing this or not!

The first "frame-perfect part" is definitely more doable currently. Just to clarify what I meant with all the frame-perfect comments (since I didn't go into specific detail and you may not be sure what I was getting at); in order to slip past a passing platform and land on the next one below, you need to fall as soon as the first platform rises past with an incredibly narrow timeframe - too early and you'll fall in the pit before the next platform spawns, too late and you won't have time to get through the gap below. With the heightened 'ceiling' I was able to get through it more or less every time, but I don't know for certain how someone who hasn't seen it before would be able to handle it (since I've already done so many times myself and such).
-I know what you meant about it being frame-perfect, I just internalized the timing from testing it a billion times so I didn't find it to be much of a problem. As for if someone can handle it without trying it a bunch of times before, that'll surely come up once we have a fully playable game to test if it's still a problem.

The latter part is certainly better than before, but it's still an incredibly awkward jump to time; having to jump from a rising platform to land on the one below it the moment it appears in order to get underneath the wall to land on the next one.
-This time I actually remembered I wanted to try a little harder to make the original setup for that jump a bit less dumb, so I've switched it back to the two-platforms-going-down arrangement and gotten rid of 5 rows of blocks in the wall-overhang-thing. It should be an entirely reasonable jump now.

Something I'm realizing as I look at this again is that I'm just not a fan of all the jumps where the ceiling overhangs the floor by one block;
brickceiling.png
of which there are three. The first two I can understand because you're kinda bouncing back 'up' to them from a close distance, but the last one is approached from far away, making it easy to hit the wall above and die.
Although I can appreciate the 'theme' of the level is more or less 'claustrophobia', I feel like there are just parts where it's just kinda being a nuisance.
-Honestly, that last overhanging ceiling being a long jump was just me being really lazy and possibly tired. I basically got it into a beatable state and then just uploaded it rather than do something about the fact that (if I'm not mistaken) the platform has to be literally off the bottom of the screen to do the jump.
Anyway, the last one's been changed along with the jump leading to it. The first two have to be that way so the player can't just fall along the wall and catch the edge of the platform to get through, though.

I dunno, I wish someone else was also reviewing levels so you could have a second opinion on that element. Hope I'm not dragging you down at all.
-Really, most of the things you've told me to change have been legitimately way too hard for the second level in a series of 8 the player has to beat with 3(?) lives. So don't worry about that.
Still have no idea of its difficulty relative to the rest of World 9, but here it is.
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Re: Bugs, Testing, and Help (Oh My!)

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Re: Bugs, Testing, and Help (Oh My!)

Post by swirlybomb »

Mucho mundo apologies for such a major delay, I've just been overwhelmed with... 'stuff'.

Oh man bare-bones reviews now:

1-1:
Still think you're asking way too much of the player for level 1-1. Still beset by Furbas the moment you start (push the starting point back to the left so you have to actually scroll the screen before they appear?), too many pits (nearly half the level seems to be pits), the little spot with two Furbas and a Green Goopa between two sets of 'stairs' is disproportionately difficult for its 'reward' (two coins in the blocks), the Green Goopa used to hit the ground-level block with a Fire Flower/cactus can very easily kill/hurt the player with no chance to respond if they simply bounce on the shell to kick it rather than holding the run button, one-tile jumps immediately after that, and a two-tile jump immediately after that. Try taking a look at 1-2's simplicity for the general level of easiness.

This might be nitpicky, but I think the bonus room offers way too many coins for being the first bonus room (and/or in general?), though the layout is nice. Iris also starts on top of Demo for some reason.
6-3:
No music, 'No Turn Back' needs to be on, Iris starts on top of Demo for some reason, Mushrooms/beets are lying out in the open instead of being in boxes, elevator platforms make bullet noises when they appear (change generator to Warp instead of Projectile), Green Paragoopa spam of five in one spot near the beginning. Overall feels too simple and easy, try adding some stuff around the elevator platforms. Kinda disappointed the multiple layers of Red Goopas was taken out, it was a little setpiece no one else has done.
9-2:
That second-to-last part is improved, but the more I play the level the more I feel like I'm only beating it because I've played it 50 times already. I dunno. I guess you could submit it and allow it to be 'fixed' later if need be. Sorry I can't be more helpful.
anonymousbl00dlust wrote:All the obstacles in my level can be beaten on the players first attempt without any 'future predicting'.
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Re: Bugs, Testing, and Help (Oh My!)

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swirlybomb wrote:6-3:
No music, 'No Turn Back' needs to be on, Iris starts on top of Demo for some reason, Mushrooms/beets are lying out in the open instead of being in boxes, elevator platforms make bullet noises when they appear (change generator to Warp instead of Projectile), Green Paragoopa spam of five in one spot near the beginning. Overall feels too simple and easy, try adding some stuff around the elevator platforms. Kinda disappointed the multiple layers of Red Goopas was taken out, it was a little setpiece no one else has done.
I've been experimenting with things, trying to figure out the proper difficulty level I need and such. Will work on increasing the difficulty and stuff.
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Re: Bugs, Testing, and Help (Oh My!)

Post by pholtos »

Something just feels... off about this. I'm having trouble with making it difficult, suggestions?
Here's v.3
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Re: Bugs, Testing, and Help (Oh My!)

Post by KingTwelveSixteen »

pholtos wrote:Something just feels... off about this. I'm having trouble with making it difficult, suggestions?
Here's v.3
It seems pretty fun to me. No need to make it super-hard or anything.

Though all the item boxes do contain beets and not cacti. They should have cacti.
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Re: Bugs, Testing, and Help (Oh My!)

Post by swirlybomb »

Unfortunately the link for 6-3 simply doesn't work for me. Clicking the download link does nothing. Not sure why? Also, don't forget that it needs a level folder with the npc text/graphic files and stuff.

Something else I didn't mention about 1-1 is that the flagpole is kinda bunked up: touching the invisible axes doesn't make the whole layer of them disappear, so as you slide down the flagpole you collect each one in turn and restart the ending sequence/tune several times. So that's another thing to touch up.
anonymousbl00dlust wrote:All the obstacles in my level can be beaten on the players first attempt without any 'future predicting'.
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Re: Bugs, Testing, and Help (Oh My!)

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Re: Bugs, Testing, and Help (Oh My!)

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swirlybomb wrote:Unfortunately the link for 6-3 simply doesn't work for me. Clicking the download link does nothing. Not sure why? Also, don't forget that it needs a level folder with the npc text/graphic files and stuff.

Something else I didn't mention about 1-1 is that the flagpole is kinda bunked up: touching the invisible axes doesn't make the whole layer of them disappear, so as you slide down the flagpole you collect each one in turn and restart the ending sequence/tune several times. So that's another thing to touch up.
Yeah I have no idea why it does that, I built it like every other flagpole I've made so I really don't know.
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Re: Bugs, Testing, and Help (Oh My!)

Post by jayScribble »

Clemasterable wrote:
swirlybomb wrote:Unfortunately the link for 6-3 simply doesn't work for me. Clicking the download link does nothing. Not sure why? Also, don't forget that it needs a level folder with the npc text/graphic files and stuff.

Something else I didn't mention about 1-1 is that the flagpole is kinda bunked up: touching the invisible axes doesn't make the whole layer of them disappear, so as you slide down the flagpole you collect each one in turn and restart the ending sequence/tune several times. So that's another thing to touch up.
Yeah I have no idea why it does that, I built it like every other flagpole I've made so I really don't know.
Unless you forgot to make the others disappear when one "dies" with events, then I don't know what might be the problem.
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Re: Bugs, Testing, and Help (Oh My!)

Post by Clamestarebla »

Hey guys what do you think of this one? It's much shorter and the flagpole is 1 block too tall but I'll fix that later. https://www.mediafire.com/?udjbx32tjqcd9fc
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Re: Bugs, Testing, and Help (Oh My!)

Post by Doctor Shemp »

1-3
Known issue: the flagpole doesn't work because the looping events break it and I forgot the fix.

The level aims to introduce moving platforms and paratroopas (horizontal & vertical) and to be the game's first athletic level.

Do you think it succeeds?
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Re: Bugs, Testing, and Help (Oh My!)

Post by WestonSmith »

Oh hey y'all. So, I'm gonna get back into this big time. So any outstanding levels (1-1, 1-3, 7-4) would be nice to have final copies of. The WIP copies of 1-1 and 1-3 are on the right track, BTW. I LOVE the bonus room in 1-3; its simple, but its neat.
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Re: Bugs, Testing, and Help (Oh My!)

Post by Kil »

If the castle teleports are too hard to make, just drop the teleporting gimmick. It wouldn't be that big of a deal.
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Re: Bugs, Testing, and Help (Oh My!)

Post by WestonSmith »

I'm of the same opinion. It's either that or use the autoscroll method. I'm not nearly attached enough to the maze castle to hold things up any longer.
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Re: Bugs, Testing, and Help (Oh My!)

Post by Clamestarebla »

https://www.mediafire.com/?mqywecxvvhcuxe9
Fixed the flagpole. Any problems design-wise?
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Re: Bugs, Testing, and Help (Oh My!)

Post by cheez8 »

I'm sorry... By now, the maze gimmick isn't an issue anymore. All I need to do is implement it, which would probably take less time than converting the castle to a normal, mazeless version. The real holdup, at least for the past couple of weeks, has simply been because I forgot I needed to do this (and now I'm having technical issues just OPENING the editor, but that's beside the point.) I'm really sorry for holding up this project so much, what with my forgetfulness and laziness and all.

As long as I'm not prevented from doing so, I'm going to have a draft of 7-4 up by this time tomorrow. If I don't... well, I don't know what I'll do. If I seriously can't manage to open the editor anymore I might just upload what I have along with some notes on how to finish it, because it really is so close to completion that installing the triggerzones is honestly all that needs to be done. Shifting work over to somebody else like that just doesn't sit right with me though, so I'll do my best to do what I can. Once again, sorry about all of this.
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Re: Bugs, Testing, and Help (Oh My!)

Post by Doctor Shemp »

WestonSmith wrote:Oh hey y'all. So, I'm gonna get back into this big time. So any outstanding levels (1-1, 1-3, 7-4) would be nice to have final copies of. The WIP copies of 1-1 and 1-3 are on the right track, BTW. I LOVE the bonus room in 1-3; its simple, but its neat.
If you're referring to 1-3 as a WIP, what exactly do you think I need to change about it? Obviously I know I need to make the flagpole work but I can't remember how to with looping events.
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Re: Bugs, Testing, and Help (Oh My!)

Post by Clamestarebla »

Doctor Shemp wrote:
WestonSmith wrote:Oh hey y'all. So, I'm gonna get back into this big time. So any outstanding levels (1-1, 1-3, 7-4) would be nice to have final copies of. The WIP copies of 1-1 and 1-3 are on the right track, BTW. I LOVE the bonus room in 1-3; its simple, but its neat.
If you're referring to 1-3 as a WIP, what exactly do you think I need to change about it?.
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Re: Bugs, Testing, and Help (Oh My!)

Post by WestonSmith »

Doctor Shemp wrote:
WestonSmith wrote:Oh hey y'all. So, I'm gonna get back into this big time. So any outstanding levels (1-1, 1-3, 7-4) would be nice to have final copies of. The WIP copies of 1-1 and 1-3 are on the right track, BTW. I LOVE the bonus room in 1-3; its simple, but its neat.
If you're referring to 1-3 as a WIP, what exactly do you think I need to change about it? Obviously I know I need to make the flagpole work but I can't remember how to with looping events.
Nothing really needs work, I just wasn't sure if you were intent on making additional changes or not. I actually went ahead and added the proper exit on my copy, so unless you plan on making any big changes, I say we call it one in the chamber. Minor touch ups can be done in the near future.

Quote the same for 1-1. Except for the use of slopes, which I think we've managed to avoid in all but one level. But I can adjust that. The basic layout is good enough that revisions during testing should leave us with a really solid first level. So unless either of you say otherwise, I'll be using the last posted versions as my final copies.

THANKS YOU TWO!
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Re: Bugs, Testing, and Help (Oh My!)

Post by Clamestarebla »

WestonSmith wrote:
Doctor Shemp wrote:
WestonSmith wrote:Oh hey y'all. So, I'm gonna get back into this big time. So any outstanding levels (1-1, 1-3, 7-4) would be nice to have final copies of. The WIP copies of 1-1 and 1-3 are on the right track, BTW. I LOVE the bonus room in 1-3; its simple, but its neat.
But I can adjust that. The basic layout is good enough that revisions during testing should leave us with a really solid first level. So unless either of you say otherwise, I'll be using the last posted versions as my final copies.
Go ahead girl!
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