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JUMP Level Review Thread

A vanilla VIP-like smw collab!
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worldpeace125
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Re: JUMP Level Review Thread

Post by worldpeace125 »

Raptures of the Deep:
zmv: part 1 (normal exit, failed to get the secret exit)
zm1: part 2 (secret exit, continued from part 1)
zm2: non-blind reattempt (secret)

Needless to say, this level is superb. I had much fun with the normal exit which contains full of interesting unique platforming. The secret path after the vine part was gold too.

Actually this post can be hardly seen as a review, and I rather have a thing to ask. I'm curious so I'd like to ask if I was doing correct regarding the vine part. Probably I missed something, since it was too hard.
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morsel/morceau
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Re: JUMP Level Review Thread

Post by morsel/morceau »

You're pretty much doing what you're supposed to do, but I just made it (awkwardly) too hard (knowing how to do it myself). See:
zm3.zip
I will make it (and some other parts) easier later. Thanks for the playthrough. Is the dragon coin part too well hidden?
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worldpeace125
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Re: JUMP Level Review Thread

Post by worldpeace125 »

Ah I forgot about the dragon coins. I focused too much on beating two exits.

The rip van fish puzzle was really clever! Though finding the entrance of the room seems too difficult given that the way to enter it is pretty obscure, especially if you don't know the pipe is supposed to be an exit. I don't think I could find it myself without opening LM.
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morsel/morceau
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Re: JUMP Level Review Thread

Post by morsel/morceau »

(You can enter the door when not standing on the ground which I don't see how to fix at the moment.)
Needless to say I was trying to do something complicated when the fix is very simple.
bigdoor_fix.zip
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Daizo
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Re: JUMP Level Review Thread

Post by Daizo »

Even though the statue fight was a little different then I expected, good lord it's fun as hell! I liked the ray sensor gimmick implemented, which made the boss feel like it was from Metal Slug or something, and how it jumps higher after each reminds me of "Very Gnawty" from DKC (I think I requested that). I actually don't have problems with the boss, although if you want any improvements/suggesions, you could make his death more "Explosive" (malfunctioning kinda way), and you could freeze the timer after he dies (like the NSMB series). If you don't want to though, that's alright, as you've done more than enough for me.

Thanks for coding this awesome boss for my level!
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My YouTube channel - P-Switch... - 100 Rooms of Enemies: The Nightmare Edition
Links above if you want to check 'em out... or not, since these are overlooked.
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worldpeace125
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Re: JUMP Level Review Thread

Post by worldpeace125 »

Perilous Pier
zmv (rom included)

When I was testing the level, I just thought the difficulty wouldn't change much from the past. But it seems like I was wrong.. after having more than 10 deaths I started to record the video lol
During the deaths before recording, I learned proper jump heights at screen 03 and urchin jump(screen 0B-0D). plus learned that I wasn't able to spinjump on urchins, and that I had to spin jump on squad of fish forming "A".

The level is fun while it's pretty hard for a world 4 level. Personally I think it's a good material for world 8, and in this case the difficulty should not be toned down.
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morsel/morceau
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Re: JUMP Level Review Thread

Post by morsel/morceau »

I recorded a blind attempt at gourmet hindrance (eventually successful after about 80 or so lives).
GHrec.zip
I have a lot of trouble with the goomba at the beginning because of him being off screen when I jumped from the vine (maybe it's just the way I was doing it). At one point, I forget you can spit out shells and perform many strange actions trying to get the green koopa to turn round. I think the level was quite reasonable after some practice (my second run to the midpoint was quickly done).
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worldpeace125
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Re: JUMP Level Review Thread

Post by worldpeace125 »

Thank you for recording. The goomba segment's difficulty is not intentional. The coin trail is supposed to guide where to land, but it seems the moment when these coins work properly is very short. Maybe I adapted that timing too much so I didn't notice it.
I feel that the biggest reason that makes the level harder is that it's unclear what to do (at a glance) and you have to figure out them, for example spitting out the shell. Before learning them, you firstly have to pass through some previous obstacles that might take up your time(the jumping fish segment seems especially redundant) and opportunities for learning become less frequent as a result. This kind of difficulty is not what I want, but I didn't notice it either because I already knew what to do.
There seems to be the way to deal with jumping fish slower but more safely than the intention, so I'm going to fix it a little. Also a tip about spitting will be added in the message box.
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worldpeace125
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Re: JUMP Level Review Thread

Post by worldpeace125 »

sublevel BB

zmv (ROM included)
Anyone who wants to try the level could get the ips.

The level's genuinely great. Especially the net climbing setups were really clever. And probably because I figured it out at the first attempt when I reached there, it was delightful and fun. I wasn't good at the first obstacles in screen 0-6 relatively though, maybe it's just me. Especially I mostly relied on luck at the double disco shell segment. From screen 07, obstacles didn't demand trials & errors so much for me (I figured out the double platform part at once though I couldn't recognize that solid column. It was really inspired from a certain hack, wasn't it? =D).

There was an odd pipe glitch when my lives were 71.
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Re: JUMP Level Review Thread

Post by mellonpizza »

Thanks, it's nice to know you enjoyed the level.
I can see the first few screens of obstacles being a bit too hard to learn an excecute compared to the rest, specially the disco shell part. I will make subtle changes.
worldpeace125 wrote:(I figured out the double platform part at once though I couldn't recognize that solid column. It was really inspired from a certain hack, wasn't it? =D)
Haha yeah, I thought I'd be neat to remake that part into a non-kaizo form. I figured the signs should help people who may not figure it out on the first try and would have to sacrifice life to learn.
I'm not a YTPMV'er. My goal is towards learning music and eventually making my own content with what I like (in this case ponies). I'm still studying how music works and this is what I can do so far, so to all the ytpmv'ers out there: Please stop following my videos, cause I'm not interested in making chiptune music with your rules you set up on how to make YTPMV's. Also I'd appreciate if you guys would lay off bronies in the comment section, cause these are made for them and not for people who
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worldpeace125
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Re: JUMP Level Review Thread

Post by worldpeace125 »

Ryrir wrote:The retry-prompt-thing is super great. You really don't realize how much time you waste going to the overworld after every death until you don't have to do it anymore. It's really cool. It's so cool in fact, that I still think it would be a swell idea to apply it globally on the whole hack...
Should have answered this already. The problem is something technical.
If there are many sprites in a sublevel, some sprites don't spawn when you re-enter the sublevel via level transition (reset doors and such). From my experience, vanilla hacks also suffered from this.
Actually the retry prompt adopted this level transition method instead of getting into "level loading" game mode. I actually found some long sublevels didn't work well with the current retry prompt.

I don't know why I didn't try changing the game mode. Maybe I'll do it later.

e: Fixed what I misremembered
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Re: JUMP Level Review Thread

Post by Ryrir »

worldpeace125 wrote:
Ryrir wrote:The retry-prompt-thing is super great. You really don't realize how much time you waste going to the overworld after every death until you don't have to do it anymore. It's really cool. It's so cool in fact, that I still think it would be a swell idea to apply it globally on the whole hack...
Should have answered this already. The problem is something technical.
If there are many sprites in a sublevel, some sprites don't spawn when you re-enter the sublevel via level transition (reset doors and such). From my experience, vanilla hacks also suffered from this.
Actually the retry prompt adopted this level transition method instead of getting into "level loading" game mode. I actually found some long sublevels didn't work well with the current retry prompt.

I don't know why I didn't try changing the game mode. Maybe I'll do it later.

e: Fixed what I misremembered
Ah, oh well. I think we can just be happy that it can be applied to the levels that have it currently - it really is a good feature and I'm happy that it is in the game.

Tactical Ambush Operation:
- Level 19D: The red koopa over the chuck is kind of hard to dodge, especially if the chuck is jumping. I think it would be better to remove it, or make it a horizontal one or something? I don’t know, it was just something that struck me as somewhat unfair in my playthrough.
- Level 19D: In general, the second half is kind of though. Maybe it would be a good idea to place a second powerup somewhere in the middle?

I had a lot of fun playing through this one. Yes, it just kind of happened, and there wasn’t really anything “special-worldly” going on, but still. It had good design, catchy music and was just… fun. I don’t know about its placement in the special world though, because something about the thought “special world” and the design of the map screams abstract, funky levels – and this one was just a plain grass level. I don’t know, it just through off my expectations.
Super Grand Ultra Marathon of Finalness:
- General: The “gimmick” that the dragoncoins don’t save and that you need a cape to get the last one is stupid. Just… plain stupid. What did you expect the reaction of the player to be? “Oh yes, I just beat this really long, kind of annoying level… and now I have to play it all over again! Except even more tedious, because I can’t get the midpoint and I can’t get hit because I still need to have a cape at the end! Sounds like so much fun!!!” It really isn’t. It’s stupid, arbitrary difficulty that just seems to be there for the heck of it, while adding nothing really to the level except making it worse. It’s not some cool little extra challenge that the player somehow looks forward to play. It’s just dumb. Sorry about the rant and all, but whoever thought that this would be a good idea needs to think again. This has to go.
- General: Do the section really need to be labeled with numbers? Seems kind of pointless to me, especially because there aren’t mentioned anywhere else. It would make more sense if there was a message somewhere saying that there are four sections in total? Otherwise, I would just remove them.
- Level 14: Screen 09-0D: Graphical glitches with the monty moles that look very bad.
- Level 14A: Screen 0C: The first skeleton seems to walk on thin air. I would suggest to higher everything a tile or two.
- Level 14B: This section is really hard without a cape and really easy with one. I don’t know, but the contrast is really baffling, because if you manage to kill both fishes, the level just becomes some easy world two stuff, which seems really out of place. All in all, I don’t really think that it’s a good idea to make them vulnerable to the cape. Yes, the level would become harder, but it is to be expected by this point and I think it would still be manageable, especially because of the many powerups in this area.
- Level 14C: I would remove the musical transition and keep on playing the track that was in the rest of the level. Changing the music seems like a weird choice, because then the last segment becomes something of its own. It’s hard to describe, but it feels really weird. The first track seemed to be powerful and energetic enough, so I don’t think it would be a problem. The red sky is probably able to convey the mood swing on its own.
- Screen 01: The square of coins around the powerup looks really goofy. I would suggest removing it.
- Screen 0A: I would suggest putting another powerup here, because at this point, the player is likely to have lost all of them and the next part is really demanding.
- Screen 11-13: I don’t think the enemy spam is really necessary. I would honestly tune it down a bit.

Needless to say, I didn’t really enjoy this level. The dragoncoin gimmick was just plain bad, and the level design wasn’t very outstanding either. As of now, the special world seems somewhat lacking… I don’t know, the player will likely be pretty excited for this, being the last world and all, and now they are stuck with a level that doesn’t really seem all that “special”, and this kind of annoying marathon level? I don’t know… Kind of a let-down.
The Black Hole:
- General: The palette of this level is bad. Like… really bad. This gimmick has been used in other hacks before this one, and all of them managed to have a palette that didn’t give you eye cancer, so I guess this has to be possible to fix?
- General: I don’t want to be that guy that screams cut-off at every little thing, but this level just looks… BAD in some places. Like downright bad. You might want to fix that, and make everything a little bit nicer.
- Level 5B: Don’t know if it’s really a good idea to place all the dragoncoins in one place like that. Also, I think two feathers are enough, it looks kind of spam-y the way it is now.
- Level 59: Hard to tell that these blocks are pick-up blocks.
- Level 12F: Screen 0A/0B: The section is really bad. You don’t know that you have to stay on the one lower block that doesn’t get eaten by the snake, if you don’t get in the pipe fast enough, and the plants are just kind of there to spam fireballs at you.
- Level 5A: The coins on top of the screen look off. I don’t know if they are really necessary to be honest. Also, this sublevel is annoying for no real reason. I think it would be a good thing to remove the invisible blocks.
- Level 5C: Terrible palette, but what else is new?
- Screen 06: Is the player really supposed to take a hit there? If so, then I would remove it, as it is kind of bad design.
- Level 5F: Really? Really. Sorry to break it to you, level designer, but this is not funny. It really isn’t. Unless it’s supposed to be some kind of commentary about the level? Like, you knew that everything was bad, starting at the palette and ending at the design and this is some kind of joke level? If that’s the case, then I don’t know if this level really should even be in the hack to be honest.

Yeah, as you can probably tell, I didn’t like that level either. The graphics were bad. The level design was mediocre at best. The boss was terrible. I didn’t like it. It’s just kind of too bad, because I have seen levels that use this gimmick and it looked really awesome, like in ASMT or even in “What the Hell”. This one just seems to fall flat. Bad designed secrets, bad designed level, bad palette… Yeah. The only positive thing I seem to find about this level is the music, really. I’m sorry, but if you want to improve the level, you pretty much have to start over. This isn’t something you could fix with a few edits – something went fundamentally wrong with this level.
Miscellaneous Monument:
- Level E1: Screen 04/05: The fire lotus has to be scrapped. It is way too hard to kill without losing your shell, and playing everything all over again is kind of annoying.
- Level E3: Having to replay level E2 if you mess up the puzzle is really annoying. It is kind of hard to think of something to remove that tough, because if you have the blue pipe on screen 02 lead to level E2, and the brown door on screen 03 lead to some other level where the player would just get a baby yoshi, there would be no way to remove the possibility that the player doesn’t carry the baby yoshi through level E2. If that makes sense? Maybe if you would remove the clouds under the brown door, so the player has to eat the first grey statue when they enter the level? Yeah, I think that would work. Maybe.
- Level E2: Screen 00: The jump back up to the pipe is hard to pull off without having some kind of running start. I think it would be better to lower the landmasses a little.
- Level E3: Screen 02: The shell-less blue koopa right at the end is really hard to kill without dying. Why not put him on the ledge where the last grey statue is now?

A puzzle level that I figured out all on my own? Impossible! I liked this one though. It felt like it was really well thought out, and it had some interesting ideas and puzzles. Felt like something that would really fit the abstract theme of the final world as well.
The Depraved Stronghold:
- Level 25: Screen 16: Place a switchblock below the podobo. Podobo-jumps are always hard to pull off, and this far into the level it just seems very annoying.
- Level 26: Screen 00: Place another powerup at the beginning of this secion or before the door in level 120.
- Level 28: Replace the goal orb with one that doesn’t make the player start walking to the right? It looks kind of weird the way it is now, because the player walks on the place right at the edge of one cement block.

And to contrast the pure puzzle level before, here we have a pure platforming one! I like this one, yes, it is very, very long and the time you spent replaying the same parts of the level over and over again can become a bit tedious, but the satisfaction when you do pull it off makes it worth it. I especially like that it is always the players fault when he dies, there is no part of the level that is unfair or requires advanced knowledge, even in the auto scrolling segment. All in all it’s a hard, but fair level.
I'm sorry if I sound kind of mean in these last reviews, I was tired, unpatient and/or aggrivated at the time. Please don't take them personally!

To draw to some kind of conclusion, I have written out these lists. I don't know if they are of any help, I think it kind of summarizes my reviews of these pasts few months.

Levels that I think are unsalvageable / should be removed from the hack:

- Shell Sitter
- Shell Shrine

Levels that I think could have a second/third midpoint:

- Cryophobia Cavern (maybe?)
- Crumbling Your Problems Away (currently has no midpoint, I feel like it could use one)
- Palatable Perturbation (before the boss)
- Manky Bridge (eventually even two more midpoints? Idk, might have to replay it again)
- Just Patterns (currently has no midpoint, feel like it should have one)
- Pixel Perfect (two more, look at my suggestions earlier on how to make this level somewhat fun maybe)

(Only six levels? Now it seems kind of a low number to me, maybe I missed some in my reviews...)

Levels that I think would benefit from (partial) redesigning:

- Introduction to Ledges and Edges (see my review)
- Monty Pit (especially second half, but even the first half is kind of bad)
- Random Blue Switch (second half)
- Aquiferic Pressure (still not too sure about the secret exit of this one, might have to play it again)
- Horse Eating Disorder (gimmick doesn't work)
- don't screw up, k (second half)
- Coin Guides Are Always Accurate (maybe? Idk, I remember some of the invisble floor situations being kind of silly)
- Into the dark forest (just a few screens if I recall correctly, look at my review)
- Shell Shrine (eugheuhgeugh)
- Pixel Perfect (again, look at my review)
- Super Grand Ultra Mega Final Level Of Finalness (remove stupid dragoncoin gimmick)
- The Black Hole (just... generally make the level better I guess idk)

Yeah. That's that.

The question now is what you do with these reviews. If I can suggest something, I would do the following: Someone should just look at them point by point, level by level, and see if they agree with what I wrote. Simple changes, like moving a dragoncoin around, adding/removing some coins, shifting the midpoint placement around or shifting a ledge two tiles to the left, could, in my opinion, be done without the explicit authorisation from the author of the level. Of course it is a fine line between making these adjustments and changing the level design itself, but I still think it is unpractical to wait for permission for every little change. I think though that the changes proposed in the levels in the list above can only made either by the author himself or with the explicit agreement from the author.
If you read through my reviews, you can see that a lot of it is just nitpicking, stuff that doesn't necessarly has to be changed. In my opinion, they still should be applied if other people agree with them (otherwise I wouldn't have written them down), but again, the question should be asked if it changes the intended design of the author or not.

Yeah. I don't know. As some kind of bottom line - I think this hack is fun. I also think that it is not as fun as it potentially could be and it's sad to see this potential go to waste. At this point, maybe little changes (which still matter, at least in my opinion) should just be applied for the greater good. I don't know. Of course my opinions are just my personal prefrences, in either case someone (preferably more than one person) should look at them and see if they agree or not and act accordingly.

Next up, I'll play the levels that I skipped/were added while I was playing.
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worldpeace125
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Re: JUMP Level Review Thread

Post by worldpeace125 »

Thank you so much for testing the levels! I cannot enough express my gratitude. I took some of your reviews on my levels too.
Ryrir wrote:Super Grand Ultra Marathon of Finalness:
Honestly I've considered this level is one of the most well-designed levels in the hack. It certainly has some unique ideas - moles breaking land and blocks, combination of dolphin & double boss bass, and pair of up->down/down->up thwomps (where you have to activate those thwomps to open your way while dealing with autoscroll & projectiles). The placements of objects and sprites is done surprisingly well, and these components mixed very well can provide you fun experience without being too unfair. Even though the 2nd section doesn't seem to contain a new interesting idea, its design is pretty good and fair.
About the graphical glitch, that kind of jank which can be seen from VIP is the point of this hack. I have to say it's hilarious and I like it.
On the other hand I don't think the dragon coin challenge is a good idea either. I can get what's the point of it. But maybe it wouldn't be enjoyable in general. I also agree that making boss basses vulnerable to cape is kind of a free pass over the section. When I played this level for the first time, I somehow didn't notice they can be killed by cape and tried to dodge them. It was pretty hard but very exciting. Without boss bass the section becomes something like flat beer.
Putting them together, I would suggest to make the dragon coin challenge easier(so they can be collected as in other levels), then make the boss bass section harder instead.
Ryrir wrote:The Black Hole:
I liked the atmosphere(another VIP quality jank) I don't know, maybe I'm kinda insensitive to visuals. Designwise, I think there's nothing too bad. It's pretty enjoyable to play, and has some nice use of eating blocks and venus plants, which is good. Though as you said, it doesn't have anything special to welcome players visiting this extra world, so yeah nothing much to say about it. If you didn't feel that bad when you play the level, the boss would have been better.
Ryrir wrote:- Introduction to Ledges and Edges (see my review)
I'm certain it was made like that intendedly. You will catch the intention if you understand what the acronym "JUMP" stands for, and what the original direction of this hack is(well, it has become somewhat different but I think the basic philosophy is maintained, sort of)
Ryrir wrote:- Monty Pit (especially second half, but even the first half is kind of bad)
And this one especially accords with the idea very well (vippish world 1).
Ryrir wrote:The question now is what you do with these reviews. If I can suggest something, I would do the following: Someone should just look at them point by point, level by level, and see if they agree with what I wrote. Simple changes, like moving a dragoncoin around, adding/removing some coins, shifting the midpoint placement around or shifting a ledge two tiles to the left, could, in my opinion, be done without the explicit authorisation from the author of the level. Of course it is a fine line between making these adjustments and changing the level design itself, but I still think it is unpractical to wait for permission for every little change. I think though that the changes proposed in the levels in the list above can only made either by the author himself or with the explicit agreement from the author.If you read through my reviews, you can see that a lot of it is just nitpicking, stuff that doesn't necessarly has to be changed. In my opinion, they still should be applied if other people agree with them (otherwise I wouldn't have written them down), but again, the question should be asked if it changes the intended design of the author or not.
Actually aterraformer wanted to make every level have the bottom tiles which are almost invisible. But when they don't exist, empty lines would appear on screen even in real snes. So I fixed some levels missing the bottom tiles. That's one case.
When it comes to big changes, you're right; we need the authors. And this policy may form one important charasteristic of this hack.
By the way, suppose some levels should be fixed due to being very unfair, and their authors haven't logged on here for months or years. In this case, the levels must be changed without a permission after having enough discussion.
Ryrir wrote:Yeah. I don't know. As some kind of bottom line - I think this hack is fun. I also think that it is not as fun as it potentially could be and it's sad to see this potential go to waste. At this point, maybe little changes (which still matter, at least in my opinion) should just be applied for the greater good.
Yeah, you exactly know what is important to make a good level! My theory is also that small changes can make the level much better. Besides I usually spend much more time on tweaking my level than completing the draft. Fine tuning is everything.
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Ryrir
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Re: JUMP Level Review Thread

Post by Ryrir »

And this is why it's important to have different opionions on the levels! haha

I guess I can see your points though. As I mentioned before, I was not in my best condition while playing through these last few levels, so maybe I would evaluate things differently if I played through them again...

Maybe a compromise can be found for the "Ultra Final Level", like putting the last dragoncoin somewhere else were the player wouldn't need the cape? I'm still not too sure about it, playing the level without the abilty to get the midpoint seems kind of dumb to me, like adding "fake" difficulty without actually doing anything new or interesting. I don't know. I get what it tries to do, I just don't think that the gimmick is acutally fun to play.

As for the Black Hole, yeah, maybe I was a bit too harsh on it. I guess I can see the appeal in the cutoff-ish design choices, now that I look at it again. I still think though that the palette should be fixed, especially Marios palette. I still stand behind my points about the level design though, unless I'm missing something, some of it seems really off, like forcing the player to be hit for no reason etc.
I guess the boss is personal opinion? I think it's stupid, but if others disagree, well...

As for the rest of the levels, especially those in world 1, all I can say is that I do see the VIP-like leveldesign, and I think it's pretty bad. If there is one thing that I have always disliked about the VIP series, it's the first one or two worlds of them. Usually, they have bland, uninteresting design (at least in my opinion), and I'm always glad when I was done with them.
Now the question is what you want out of this hack: Do you want it 100% VIP-like, with everything that means? Or do you want to keep the "good" parts of the series, and get rid of the "bad" ones / make them better? Because if you do keep levels like 1-1 or Monty Pit exactly like they are now, it will be the former, whereas I always thought that the goal of this hack was to be like the latter option. Maybe I misunderstood though...

I agree that Monty Pit could be left as it is, but it will always be remebered as a bad level, which I think it doesn't have to be. Like, we know that it is bad or a low point in world one, so why don't we do something about it now in testing? Why should be leave a level that we know is not up to "the standarts" of this hack as it is? Maybe it's just me not getting the charm of early-game VIP levels but that somehow doesn't make sense to me.

Regarding 1-1, I think that if you really want to leave it as it is, you at least have to remove the part with the spinjump glitch. Even the VIPs didn't require the game to do that that early in the game, and I feel like it could put off some players who will play this game for the very first time. To be honest if I were to open up a new romhack that I just downloaded from, say, SMWCentral, and I know that it has 120 exits and is supposed to have a somewhat stable difficulty curve - and the very first level of the hack was the current 1-1? I don't know if I would continue playing. Maybe swapping some levels around could help, so that it isn't 1-1 anymore?

And, at last, the thing about what we should do about the little changes in various levels. As you said, it doesn't make sense to wait for some of the authors. Now I think we have two options: Just edit the levels ourselves (and with that I mean the finetuning, nitpicking stuff that I mentioned all the time in my reviews) or leave them as they are and only change really heavy / unfair stuff. Now I think that editing the little things / finetuning a level can be done without explicit consent from the author, especially if he/she hasn't been active in a while. But maybe others would see things differnetly?

So yeah. These are my opinions I guess. Do with them whatever you want~
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aterraformer
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Re: JUMP Level Review Thread

Post by aterraformer »

Ryrir wrote:Levels that I think are unsalvageable / should be removed from the hack:
- Shell Shrine
unstrike dat shit
raocow wrote:the plan is to wait for Jump to be released and then replacing the graphics without telling anyone involved with Jump.
Image
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Re: JUMP Level Review Thread

Post by markyjoe1990 »

Regarding my level @Ryrir and @WorldPeace

I'll change the last dragon coin so it's reachable without the cape. Conversely, I think making the player beat the whole level without the midpoint is a valid challenge. I want to keep that part in.

Regarding section 3... I agree that it's very polarizing in difficulty, and I think I have a solution. Could someone perhaps make the boss basses invincible, but NOT cause instant death?

Everything else about the level I think is fine. The graphical jank is part of the VIP-like charm, and I've received a lot of positive feedback overall on it.

Unfortunately, I still need to go fix my other levels... but they should be easy to fix. Which is why I will procrastinate further probably.
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worldpeace125
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Re: JUMP Level Review Thread

Post by worldpeace125 »

markyjoe1990 wrote:Regarding section 3... I agree that it's very polarizing in difficulty, and I think I have a solution. Could someone perhaps make the boss basses invincible, but NOT cause instant death?
Yeah it's possible. I will tweak the sprite and upload it soon.
Ryrir wrote:As for the rest of the levels, especially those in world 1, all I can say is that I do see the VIP-like leveldesign, and I think it's pretty bad. If there is one thing that I have always disliked about the VIP series, it's the first one or two worlds of them. Usually, they have bland, uninteresting design (at least in my opinion), and I'm always glad when I was done with them.Now the question is what you want out of this hack: Do you want it 100% VIP-like, with everything that means? Or do you want to keep the "good" parts of the series, and get rid of the "bad" ones / make them better? Because if you do keep levels like 1-1 or Monty Pit exactly like they are now, it will be the former, whereas I always thought that the goal of this hack was to be like the latter option. Maybe I misunderstood though...I agree that Monty Pit could be left as it is, but it will always be remebered as a bad level, which I think it doesn't have to be. Like, we know that it is bad or a low point in world one, so why don't we do something about it now in testing? Why should be leave a level that we know is not up to "the standarts" of this hack as it is? Maybe it's just me not getting the charm of early-game VIP levels but that somehow doesn't make sense to me.
I don't know. I usually giggled at some silly things in the early game when I played vip. Personally I think they are enjoyable. Some errors you mentioned could also be ones we can just smile away, but it's just an opinion... And of course, not having those 'bad' things will be even better. If the author decides to improve it, I would welcome it.
About the position of this hack(100% vippish or keeping good things only), we are in the middle of the two lines I guess.
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worldpeace125
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Re: JUMP Level Review Thread

Post by worldpeace125 »

Sorry for double post
markyjoe1990 wrote:Regarding section 3... I agree that it's very polarizing in difficulty, and I think I have a solution. Could someone perhaps make the boss basses invincible, but NOT cause instant death?
Try this one.
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Daizo
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Re: JUMP Level Review Thread

Post by Daizo »

Black Hole's pretty infamous, even I have to admit that. I originally wanted the boss to have a used block snake, but due to the nature of how SMW Reznor works, I couldn't implement it. One thing I must disagree with you about is the aesthetics; everything being white and black isn't a bad thing in the slightest in my opinion (hell, I actually made it grey instead of actual white just to be generous), and the so called "cutoffs" are really there to give the "weird" feeling in the level. Otherwise, as much as it pains me, I agree with the rest. It's f :!: king garbage.

What's done is done, I guess. You're not the only one who absolutely despises it... I hope you'll enjoy my two newest levels in the hack (Sublevel BC, and Fortress of the Giant Monsters) if you decide to have a go with them. I kinda expected you to bash on TBH anyway.
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Ryrir
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Re: JUMP Level Review Thread

Post by Ryrir »

Hm. Looking at it again, I think my main problem with the palette of the level is not the palette of the castle tileset itself, but Mario's palette, which is this kind of weird mix between his usual colors and the white/blackness of the environment. I think at least this should be fixed (if it is possible), and then maybe the rest won't be that bad.

I don't really know if I agree with the "what's done is done" philosophy to be honest - you still have more than enough time to fix some things around if you want to! I admit that my previous statement about having to start everything over was way too harsh, I think it would help if you would only redesign some key parts of the level? I think 12F/0A-0B and 5C/06 were the main screens that I think are not that well designed - if you still want to do something with the level, this is where I would start.
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Daizo
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Re: JUMP Level Review Thread

Post by Daizo »

Hey wait a minute, I thought that was fixed looooong ago. The level used Mario ExGFX for that level specificly, which turned Mario completely black (and have red eyes). I... seriously don't know what happened. The graphics file for Mario's graphics is ExGFX10F if someone wants to fix that.

I'll see what I can do for the level I guess. I'll admit I was a little enraged when I made the previous comment. Another thing I have to point out is in 5C, the chuck at the end was meant to be killed from the side of it. I never intended the player to take a hit at that point, as that section was meant to slow you down, trying to kill the chuck before the platform eats away the ground. If you wanted to enter the door faster, I guess you could take a forced hit, but it wasn't my intention.

E: Actually looking at the level again, I was experimenting with things that the player would normally think is bad aesthetically. It doesn't change the level design, however.
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Re: JUMP Level Review Thread

Post by worldpeace125 »

Daizo wrote:Hey wait a minute, I thought that was fixed looooong ago. The level used Mario ExGFX for that level specificly, which turned Mario completely black (and have red eyes). I... seriously don't know what happened. The graphics file for Mario's graphics is ExGFX10F if someone wants to fix that.
It seems the "separate mario graphics per level" patch was inserted after you requested, which was actually never applied to your level (at least on the released roms). Since I started managing those patches, I've always wondered why this patch exists although it's never used. Now I can see its use.
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Ryrir
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Re: JUMP Level Review Thread

Post by Ryrir »

Euphoric Mushroom Backyard:
- Level 10C: Screen 08: What exactly is the point of this setup? I mean it’s pretty neat and all, but it’s just kind of there and not really relevant to the level. If you wanted to give the player a mushroom, you could have just given him one, you know? I mean it’s not that it’s not working or anything it’s just weird because it doesn’t seem to have anything to do with the level.
- Screen 0A: I think this setup is a bit too tricky for world two and especially in regards to the general difficulty of the level. I think it would work better if you would remove the poison mushroom on the far left, so that the player has more room to navigate.
- Level 167: Screen 0B: “Big Mario Discrimination” here. It’s probably difficult to avoid because if you made the gap wider, the player would be able to ignore the chucks/go over them. I still think that this needs to be changed though because the player has just been given a mushroom on screen 0A, so it is very likely that he will be big in this situation. Maybe you could find another way to make the poison mushroom compulsory for progress? Maybe Mega Moles could work?
- Screen 0C: Again, what is up with the weird construction on the right? What’s the point of it? I don’t get it… Also, it is another case of “Big Mario Discrimination”.

A fun little gimmicky level that just kind of happened in the end. I liked it, it didn’t try to do too much or anything too crazy, but instead stuck to the simple stuff which worked quite well in my opinion. Sometimes it’s best not to overdo things. I am pretty puzzled about the two instances with the blue tapes though.
Spring Green Spelunking:
- General: I think the music doesn’t fit the theme of the level. I would change it to something more fitting.
- Screen 01: Getting the dragoncoin is hard to do if the player is small. I would suggest lowering it one tile.
- Screen 03: Big Mario Discrimination. Also, I think it is unlikely that the player will have pressed the green switch at this time. Of course he could have gone on the other path and then come back once he beat the game, but I think it is kind of unfair to not give the player a powerup if he chooses this path first or tries to do both worlds one after the other. Maybe the green block could be left in if one of the other questionmark-blocks would give the player a powerup?
- Screen 04: The flying koopa is pretty hard to dodge if you come from running up the wall. I think it would be better if he was placed a few tiles to the right.
- Screen 0B: The koopa jump is very hard to pull off in my opinion, especially for a world three level. Place the koopa further down and even a bit to the left.
- Screen 0B: Again, I think the bullet bill jump is hard to pull off. Maybe you could experiment with putting them on the left side of the gap? I think it would be easier that way actually.
- Screen 08: I think the midpoint is kind of lopsided. In my opinion the level would work a lot better if the midpoint section (screen 08) came after the pipe on screen 04 and would lead to screen 0B. (Kind of like the level is structured in lunar magic actually.)
- Screen 0E: Why are the green spring boards covered in brown blocks?

This is an interesting level in my opinion. Jump hasn’t got a lot of vertical levels, so I think it is cool to see something different. The level design itself is kind of shaky though, some parts are easy and others are very hard all out of nowhere. I think it will be a cool level once those things are fixed though.
Fortress of Koumei’s Trap:
- Level 162: Screen 07: The two dead fish are never really any danger to the player.
- Level 163: Screen 04: I think two stars would be enough, three seems kind of too much in my opinion. I understand that the intended solution is that the player gets the stars so that they can’t be eaten by yoshi, but when I first played the level I tried to get to the pipe without interacting with the stars and it was pretty hard. I think it would be nice if both solutions would work, so I would remove one star.
- Level 161: Screen 03: I think a warning message should pop up before the green berry.
- Level 165: Screen 00: I don't think this message is really necessary, because it was already said in the first half that the player can press B to jump higher.

I liked this level a lot. The gimmick was super funny, the level design was good, it was demanding without being too hard… I had a lot of fun.
Rapture of the Deep:
- Level 10D: Screen 03/09/0B: I’m still not a huge fan of munchers who float at the bottom of the screen, but at this point I’m starting to believe that I am alone with this opinion. Personally, I would move everything one tile higher, but whatever I guess.
- Screen 07: Again, there is a 50% chance that the player will have the switch pressed at this point. Kind of dumb to punish the player by not giving him a powerup if he cannot do anything to avoid it. I think I would just give the player a regular mushroom at this point, especially because the level is kind of hard for world three as it is.
- Screen 0B: This jump is pretty hard, at least in my opinion. Maybe you could put the three fish closer together?
- Screen 0C: It is pretty redundant to give the player a mushroom here if he is pretty much guaranteed to lose it on the jumps on screen 0D/0E. These jumps are much easier if the player is small, and it is very likely that he will lose the mushroom almost as soon as he has gotten it. Either put the mushroom somewhere closer to the midpoint, or after screen 0E. (Or both? The level is hard enough that it wouldn’t feel too easy, that’s for sure).

An interesting concept for a level. I think I liked it all in all, there were some pretty interesting ideas there for sure (the dragoncoins and the secret exit come to mind). Some of the jumps with the falling platforms or the vines in combination with the fishes were kind of annoying though. The level of precision is pretty high for where the level is on the map, but I guess it's kind of on a secret path along with “Aquiferic Pressure” and Mellonpizza’s level, so I guess it makes sense. But still, sometimes the level of frustration was a little bit too high for me to enjoy the level as much as others, though maybe that’s because I’m not that good in SMW?
Perilous Pier:
I liked the new second half a lot better than the old one! Good job, especially because I don’t think that JUMP already has an automatic section, and I think it’s somewhat of a classic in Japanese romhacks… One little thing though, I think the jump between the urchins on screen 0B/0C is kind of too tight, because you can only do it with a spinjump, which is not very clear. Maybe I would space them out a little bit more so that the jump is doable with a “B”-Jump? Otherwise, I think the section is pretty cool.
-Charge!- or -Fire!-?
Nothing to really criticize here. I think it’s a pretty well designed level with traps that are kind of mean at times, but I think the player can avoid all of them the first time if his reactions are fast enough, so I don’t think it’s unfair. I really liked the bonsai bill with the chuck smashing the turnblocks behind it, that was a funny idea. The only thing that I kind of dislike is screen 0B, maybe you could place the bonsai bill a bit further to the left so that the player can actually kill it by jumping on top of it?
Fortress of the Giant Monsters:
- General: If have a few issues with how the sprites work.
1) It’s kind of weird how Mario can stand on the side of the big spikes. He couldn’t stand on the side of the spikes in the original SMW, and I don’t think it is necessary for this level. Besides, you can see how the sprite of the spike is actually a rectangle instead of a triangle – it looks like Mario is walking in the air when he stands on the edge of them. Since it’s not a necessary feature for the level, I would just edit the sprite to hurt while standing on it.
2) Not really anything big, but it’s kind of sad that the grey bowser statues can’t spit fire. Would it look weird if you would just use the normal, smaller fire sprites?
3) Aren’t there graphics for giant coins and questionblocks? Again, this is not really necessary, but I feel like the smaller sprites clash with the bigger ones in this level, especially the coins. If you can’t find a bigger graphic for the coins, I would even consider removing all of them in this level, because I really think that they don’t look good with the bigger sprites all around them.
4) You can hurt the giant bone-beetle-things with a spinjump, but not with a normal jump. Again, it wasn’t that way in the original SMW and it’s kind of irritating. I would consider editing the sprite so that the also crumble when jumped upon with a “B”-Jump.
5) This may just be my personal opinion, but I think that the earthquake might just be one of the most annoying things in SMW-hacking ever. Now, I think it works well for the thwomps in this level, but for the golden bowser statues it just seems excessive. I think it would be better if those didn’t cause an earthquake.
- Level 6: Screen 02: What exactly is the point of these coinblocks? It seems kind of redundant for some sort of secret and it’s ultimately a waste of time to get up there. I guess it’s to show that Mario can stand on the side of the spikes? But even then, that gimmick is never used again for the rest of the level, so I don’t really see the point. If you go with my previous idea and make the side of the spikes hurtful again, I would suggest removing this whole area, if not, then I would give the player a powerup or blocks with multiple coins or a hidden one-up or something.
- Screen 04: To make this jump, the player needs to be running, which is kind of hard to achieve because the thwomp on screen 03 causes earthquakes all the time. I think it would be better to make the gap smaller.
- Level 7A: Screen 0B-0D: I believe these coins are on the wrong layer? The move up and down alongside the spikes and it looks kind of weird. Also, they turn into brown blocks the moment you press the p-switch, so it makes the way back harder if the player decides to press it on screen 0E. What I would do is make the coins on screen 0B stationary, and replace the coins on screens 0C and 0D with coins that only appear once the p-switch is pressed. This would also give the player something else to do besides just bring the p-switch back to the pipe.
- Level 7B: I like this boss a lot, but I have two problems with him: One thing is that again, I think the earthquake is pretty annoying. I don’t think the boss needs it to be honest, it seems hard enough as it is, and it just makes everything more frustrating. I believe that the boss would be more enjoyable if you would remove the earthquakes. The other thing is the charge attack against the wall before he is vulnerable – once you know that it’s coming it is easy to avoid, but the first time it is impossible to not get hit because the player is not expecting it. Maybe you could work something out with the warning-triangles?

I think this level is pretty neat. Some sprites behave kind of in a weird way (in my opinion), but I think that those are easy fixes. The level design itself is pretty solid, nothing too fancy, but it does what it does pretty well. I really liked the boss fight though, that was very cool and it really helped the level in my opinion.
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Re: JUMP Level Review Thread

Post by morsel/morceau »

The Nintendo Defence to the Floating Muncher Gambit.
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Ryrir
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Re: JUMP Level Review Thread

Post by Ryrir »

morsel/morceau wrote:The Nintendo Defence to the Floating Muncher Gambit.
Yeah, this is really a personal thing - I think it looks kind of weird if they float at the bottom of the screen like that without any ground. But there are lots of levels in this hack who do this, so feel absolutly free to ignore my opinion on this (:
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